No Nonsense Stout

(EDITED 12/30/12 to reflect the recipe I actually brewed; the original post was a "rough draft")

I'm gonna brew this up in a week or so when I get back from Seattle. It reflects everything I've learned so far about gluten-free brewing and I think it's gonna be a slam-dunk.

3 Gallon Batch:

Grains:
1 lb toasted GF instant oats (approx. 25° Lovibond, or about the color of a chocolate brownie) (steeping pre-boil)
2 lbs D-180 candi syrup (at 90 min)
4 oz maltodextrin (at 90 min)
3 lbs liquid sorghum extract (at flameout)

Hops:

0.25 oz columbus (90 min)
0.3 oz columbus (20 min)

Yeast:
Safale S-04

OG: 1.060
FG: 1.012
IBU: 36.4

Dead simple. No fancy juju. Should be black as roofing tar, thick like a milkshake, and generously hoppy. If my hypothesis is correct, the roastiness of the candi syrup will combine with the metallic twang of the sorghum to make a Guinness-like taste. I may or may not add some vanilla extract to half the bottles at bottling time if that seems like a good idea after I taste it. Probably won't, because I've brewed so many weird beers now that I'm really just hankering for some basic drinkers. At the very least, I hope this recipe will serve as a base for later expansion.

If I can come up with a solid and simple GF stout recipe, maybe I can pitch it to a local microbrewery, since I'm fairly sure a good GF stout would dominate in the market (who the heck wants another GF light lager or pale ale???), and the SF Bay Area has a HUUUUGE gluten-free population.

That looks good. I've got some dark recipes that I haven't brewed yet on my hopville account if you want to cross reference at all, though no stouts. The only thing that stands out to me is 2lbs of the 180 for a 3 gallon batch seems like a lot, but that might be just what we have to do for gf stouts!
I was at a store yesterday and their dark candi was on clearance so I bought it up! Maybe I'll brew this

I was under the impression that using a lot of that real dark candi syrup gives some funky flavors, but I haven't tried it yet. I have some 180 waiting patiently for some malt to walk into its life, then they can make sweet fermentation to eachother and have delicious beer babies.

Completely off topic, but I just now realized GF stands for Gluten Free. I don't know how many of these threads I read thinking you guys were brewing these beers for your girl friends.

Anyhow, let us know how this turns out. My wife likes good beer, but limits her gluten intake. Thus far, there are no gluten free stouts available for her.

looneybomber said:

Completely off topic, but I just now realized GF stands for Gluten Free. I don't know how many of these threads I read thinking you guys were brewing these beers for your girl friends.

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I think GF may as well stand for girlfriend for a good many of us, myself included

muench1 said:

I think GF may as well stand for girlfriend for a good many of us, myself included

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I figured that was the case. When talking about this thread/beer with my wife, she wondered what guys drink gluten free beer.

Sounds pretty good. The last stout batch I made used toasted oats, dark candi syrup and some dark cooked honey, it came out fairly good but I wish I'd have used more dark candi syrup (which you are doing, in proportion to batch size anyway).

When we bottled ours, we added coffee to a small amount, and my friend that likes stouts thought the coffee really added the roasted flavor...

looneybomber said:

I figured that was the case. When talking about this thread/beer with my wife, she wondered what guys drink gluten free beer.

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I do (Celiac), and I thought that at least one of the other guys on here was brewing it for himself.

Actually, someone should make a poll...

There's a few of us who are brewing mostly for ourselves. I'm one. I was gluten free then got into brewing (though I had considered barley before I found out I was allergic).
Most people are brewers brewing for someone they know who is gluten free (male or female).
And some are people who brewed beer first then found out they had to go gluten free due to allergies.

i brew for me. i had a male celiac roommate, he liked to drink the brew, but never contributed (help or supply) so i stopped providing him free beer, now hes gone.

ive used candi syrup before weird flavors if you go overboard. i also tried a batch with some agave and sorghum. complete mess. tried letting it age almost 2 years and still hot and aweful.. it went to the garden.

ive been finding that toasted chipped chestnuts are a great backbone. most beery ive gotten. chestnuttrails.com ran by leeinwa (forum member) i believe. a bit pricey, but ohh so tasty if your looking to get rid of the sorghum.

I brew for myself, though I try to make beers that other people will enjoy (or at least find interesting) as well.

Out of curiousity, those of you who've brewed with lots of candi syrup and found it objectionable, how much did you use in how many gallons of wort, what didn't you like about it, and what level of darkness did you use? Did you include any other spurious ingredients that may have contributed to off-flavors? So far I've used 1 lb of d-180 plus 1 lb of d-45 in a porter recipe that would have been great if I hadn't overdone the licorice root, so I figured two pounds of d-180 might get me into stout territory, especially with some chocolate-roasted oats. It seems like a worthwhile experiment, but if others have taken similar approaches, I don't want to repeat anyone else's mistake.

Dorklord, did you make a thread on that stout recipe? I'd like to know more about your results and any other mods you might want to make.

igliashon said:

I brew for myself, though I try to make beers that other people will enjoy (or at least find interesting) as well.

Out of curiousity, those of you who've brewed with lots of candi syrup and found it objectionable, how much did you use in how many gallons of wort, what didn't you like about it, and what level of darkness did you use? Did you include any other spurious ingredients that may have contributed to off-flavors? So far I've used 1 lb of d-180 plus 1 lb of d-45 in a porter recipe that would have been great if I hadn't overdone the licorice root, so I figured two pounds of d-180 might get me into stout territory, especially with some chocolate-roasted oats. It seems like a worthwhile experiment, but if others have taken similar approaches, I don't want to repeat anyone else's mistake.

Dorklord, did you make a thread on that stout recipe? I'd like to know more about your results and any other mods you might want to make.

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I'm sure I've posted the recipe, but I don't think I made a thread specifically about it. I've actually had several really good batches in a row (though now my 2 latest batches, an ESB and a mock-lager, are extremely cloudy), that I've been meaning to post up about.

Stout:
Steeped 1 lb of lightly roasted rolled oats.
3 lbs sorghum extract
1 lb cooked honey (black)
2 lbs cooked sugar (burnt).
4 oz maltodextrin
1 oz Fuggles
4 gallon boil, outside with turkey fryer.
pitched S-04 around 80F

At bottling time, when we figured we only had a 6 pack or so left, we dumped in 1 cup of coffee.

I'm not a big stout drinker myself, but my friend liked it, if we wanted it more of a roasted, stout flavor, I'd say to cook the honey a little more (or just use more burnt sugar), and perhaps add coffee to the whole batch. Also, cooking the oats to a darker roast would help as well.

dorklord...I'm curious about your burnt honey. I brew mead as well and currently on the mead forum brochets (burnt honey) are very popular. They say they taste like caramel and smell like roasted marshmellows. I had been toying with the idea of making a mock brochet (no yeast) and adding that into a beer to give it more color and complex flavors. But I'm not sure how to go about doing it.

After you burn your honey do you add water to it to reconstitute it as a liquid or is it still in a form that you can pour it into the beer? Do you burn the honey and then brew the beer immediately or do you have burned honey stored up? What kind of flavors do you find it imparts to the beer?

ChasidicCalvinist said:

dorklord...I'm curious about your burnt honey. I brew mead as well and currently on the mead forum brochets (burnt honey) are very popular. They say they taste like caramel and smell like roasted marshmellows. I had been toying with the idea of making a mock brochet (no yeast) and adding that into a beer to give it more color and complex flavors. But I'm not sure how to go about doing it.

After you burn your honey do you add water to it to reconstitute it as a liquid or is it still in a form that you can pour it into the beer? Do you burn the honey and then brew the beer immediately or do you have burned honey stored up? What kind of flavors do you find it imparts to the beer?

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I am very interested in about this as well.

Well, my goal with the honey and the candi syrup was just to make something like a home-made dark candi syrup. I think I diluted the honey with a bit of water before heating it, and I cooked it on the stove until it was black. It didn't smell particularly burnt, and it tasted strongly of caramel.

In the past, I've used home-made candi syrup immediately and I've let it cool, poured it into a container and tossed it in the freezer. Since I'm adding water to it while cooking it (to keep it below soft crack), adding just a bit of water at the end keeps it syrupy, and it doesn't quite freeze in the freezer.

I usually make this stuff up a day or two ahead of time.

Anyway, I'm not really sure what the difference in flavor between using honey that has been cooked that much and using similarly cooked sugar is, but the flavor of this stout was on the line between a roasty, caramel flavor and the sort of burnt-toast flavor.

Welp, I brewed this up today, with only slight modifications: 3 lbs of sorghum syrup instead of two, 90-minute boil instead of 60 (for some extra hoppiness) and 0.3 oz columbus instead of 0.25 at 20 min. I steeped the oats for a long time, added them when to the full 3 gallons when the water was cold and slowly raised the temp to around 150-160°F, then held for about 45 minutes. The result was a dark red liquor that smelled of burnt toast. It's still chilling as I type this. Should be about 50 IBU's and about 6% ABV. Keeping my fingers crossed!

Took a hydrometer reading today. Needs another couple weeks to hit target FG, but taste is good so far! Very chocolately, kinda reminds me a little of a Young's Double Chocolate Stout, but is maybe a touch too acidic. I think this is the closest thing to a stout I've had in YEARS, and I can't wait until it's finished!

How did this come out at bottling? I'm thinking of trying something similar for my second batch...

Is it still a bit acidic? I've seen some people talking about balancing the acidity of sorghum with a bit of lime (CaCO3), presumably post boil so as not to interfere with hop isomerisation...

Bottling today. Hit target gravity last week, and taste was improving. I might want to invest in a pH meter and do some adjustments in the future, that's a great idea.

I'm digging this recipe and excited to hear how it turns out. Especially because I had a Sam Adams Baltic IPA tonight that was FANTASTIC!

I'd love to make a good GF stout and hop the crap out of it.

My next stout is definitely gonna be in the Imperial Russian Stout vein...columbus and nugget, methinks, plus roasted beets and super-dark buckwheat.

Couldn't keep my patience, so I cracked a bottle tonight. Yep, still flat, but holy moses did I ever nail the taste on this one! This is a 100% success. It tastes like Deschutes Obsidian, and I couldn't be more pleased. This is about as perfect a stout as I could ask for. The twang is almost non-existent, and the roasty chocolatey character is perfect. The hop bitterness is clean but assertive, the mouthfeel is smooth and robust. This is DEFINITELY a recipe worth repeating. We'll see how it holds up over the next several weeks (I will try not to touch another one for at least another two weeks to ensure adequate carbonation), but if you're looking for a good stout recipe, look no further!

Good to hear!

I mentioned the Sam Adams Baltic IPA before, and this one might be a good one to hop the crap out of to produce a similar style.

I am sure you will, but please let us know how this turns out when carbed up!

I'll have to put this one on my list to brew...the next beer I want to make is your grapefruit IPA

I brew for me. I've been homebrewing for a few years, but only recently discovered a gluten sensitivity (not full-on celiac). I switched to a paleo diet and saw huge improvements, but beer had always been my cheat and left me feeling like garbage. Hopefully, this will remedy that.

On 05-29-2012, at 06:43 PM igliashon said: "We'll see how it holds up over the next several weeks (I will try not to touch another one for at least another two weeks to ensure adequate carbonation)..."

Not nagging but it will have been a couple weeks this evening ..... pictures or it did not happen.

Put a bottle in the fridge last night. Gonna crack it after school. I'll post pics if I can find my camera battery, but it's been MIA for a while.

As promised!



About 30 seconds after pouring.



Look at that thick chunky head!



Lacing that just won't quit!

Tasting notes:
Look: thick and jet-black, with a chunky tan-colored head, retained for about 30 seconds but leaving a persistent tan lacing, somewhat like a frothy espresso.

Aroma: dark chocolate and some dark fruit, slight roasty sharpness.

Taste: initially sweet with a mild tang, not unlike a Guinness, giving way to caramel and dark fruit, then dark chocolate and toasted rye bread, finishing with a smooth bitterness and roast coffee that lingers, a slight tartness comes up at the very end.

Mouthfeel: thick and creamy, almost like a milkshake.

Conclusion: the infamous "sorghum twang" actually works really nicely in a stout, giving an edge to what might otherwise be a dull, overly-round beer. This is probably the most "drinkable" stout I've ever had, it goes down easy and doesn't feel heavy. The only weak point of it is that there is a thin almost salty tanginess that gets stronger as the beer warms up. My next stout will be all rice extract, and it will be interesting to see how it compares.

What temperature/time did you use to roast the oats? Does a longer time at a lower heat vs. a shorter time at a higher heat make a difference when roasting oats?

Do you have a finalized recipe for this after post-brew and bottle conditioning or would you stick with it as is?

frothdaddy said:

What temperature/time did you use to roast the oats? Does a longer time at a lower heat vs. a shorter time at a higher heat make a difference when roasting oats?

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I went by color moreso than time; I roasted at about 350 for maybe two hours? But I started with wet oats, so they had to dry and then brown. But basically I roasted them until they were the color of milk chocolate. I don't know if long-and-low makes a difference vs. short-and-high, but since I'm not trying to protect any enzymes, I went for the shorter time. I also only let them waft for a week.

ChasidicCalvinist said:

Do you have a finalized recipe for this after post-brew and bottle conditioning or would you stick with it as is?

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I dunno; it's REALLY good, so it's hard to say what could be improved on. Maybe do 50/50 rice/sorghum? IDK, I'm brewing another stout tomorrow using no sorghum, so we'll see how that one comes out.

igliashon said:

I went by color moreso than time; I roasted at about 350 for maybe two hours? But I started with wet oats, so they had to dry and then brown. .... I also only let them waft for a week.

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Two questions, i have never toasted/roasted before... How do you prep the oats to roast wet? Second, what do you mean by waft for a week?

robbyhicks said:

Two questions, i have never toasted/roasted before... How do you prep the oats to roast wet? Second, what do you mean by waft for a week?

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Ah, it's exactly what it sounds like. Pour the oats in a big mixing bowl--make sure there's room for the oats to swell, or they'll overflow as they absorb water--and pour enough water over them just to cover. You can use warm or cold water, it doesn't really matter, but warm water absorbs faster. Then you let them sit for a while, until the oats absorb as much water as they can. Pour off any remaining excess, then spread the oats on a baking sheet (or two, depending on how much you're toasting).

Once you've toasted the grains, it's good to put them in a paper bag (or a bowl covered with a towel) and let them sit for a few weeks, as this is supposed to allow harsh/sharp flavors to "waft away", leading to mellower and "less burnt" flavor in the final beer. At least, this is what I've been told; I didn't always do it that way and I'm not sure doing it longer than a week really makes a significant difference.

Also, FWIW I might recommend using more grains than I did. 2 lbs per 3 gallons gave me just a little bit of flavor, I'd up it to at least 1 lb per gallon, if not more, if you really want the flavor to come through.

Heh -- I actually dry toasted my oats. I'll try wet toasting next time. I imagine it gets more Maillard reactions going. They're sitting in a paper bag until I get back from a trip in two weeks and can brew again.

When I toasted them, they smelled quite strongly. I didn't mind the smell too much, but my wife said it was like burned cabbage, and it lingered in the kitchen for a few days. So be warned. (They smelled fine after a week in the bag.)

Also, I think I read somewhere that too much oats (more than about 25% of total grains?) can cause astringency in the beer. And apparently something like 8% is more common.

I'm thinking about toasting different grains for grain+extract brews. I've heard good things about millet and quinoa.

Thanks for the instructions igliashon. I was going to ask the same question.

igliashon said:

I dunno; it's REALLY good, so it's hard to say what could be improved on. Maybe do 50/50 rice/sorghum? IDK, I'm brewing another stout tomorrow using no sorghum, so we'll see how that one comes out.

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How did the stout without sorghum come out? I have a friend asking me to make a gluten free stout, and I'm currently putting together a recipe. I was planning on going pretty heavy with roasted oats.

It was a Russian Imperial Stout, so I haven't bottled it yet...probably will this week, though! I used 4 lbs of roasted grains (2 lbs buckwheat, 2 lbs purple rice, both roasted quite dark) and some beets, as well as 2 lbs of D90 Candi syrup and some rice solids. I think using the rice syrup is better, but I'm not sure how I feel about this beer yet. I hopped the crap out of it with Willamette and I'm not sure if that was the best choice...bitterness is kind of rough right now.

My suggestion, based on these two experiences, is that rice syrup plus dark candi syrup (maybe half D-90 and half D-180), a hint of molasses, maltodextrin, and some roasted steeping grains (at least 1 lb per gallon of wort) can make a very decent stout, more stylistically-convincing than most lighter gluten-free beers in fact! Make sure to use a British yeast, like S-33 or Windsor. Oats, purple rice, and buckwheat all toast very well. Oven-roasted beets are also not a bad addition at all.

I see you posted about the GF stout in April. How did it turn out? My daughter has a gluten allergy and I would still like to make a Guinness type for her.

gailenjensen said:

I see you posted about the GF stout in April. How did it turn out? My daughter has a gluten allergy and I would still like to make a Guinness type for her.

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LOL, did you read the thread, mate? I think you may have missed something!