n00b AG question

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Dude

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Okay...I've been pondering something and I'm not sure of where to find the answer....

Say I do a protein rest at 122° (or so) and want to step up to 152°. What if I drained off some of the mash water (no grain, just water) after the protein rest was complete, heated that to a near boil, and added it it back to the mash to get the mash up to temp? Am I going to kill some (or all) of the enzymes by doing that?

I would think this would be a decent solution as well if you missed a mash temp by a few degrees and wanted to bring the temp up without sacrificing the stiffness of the mash by adding more water.

I think what I'm asking here is sort of similar to just recirculating the mash water--but not really.

Inputs?
 
I did this recently when I had too much in my 5 gallon mash tun to get my temps up to sacc temps. What I did was to draw off a couple of Qts of recirculated wort and raise to 150f and let stand for 30 minutes and then boiled it and added that to get my temps up to sacc temps.
Worked ok for me. Did a iodine test and everything was kosher.
 
Doesn't that make it a decoction mash, then?

From this website: http://www.strandbrewers.org/techinfo/decoct1.htm
In decoction mashing, a portion of the mash is removed from the mash tun and is transferred to a boiling pot. This portion is called the decoction, and it is heated slowly to bring it to a boil. After boiling for a period of time the decoction is added back to the main mash, thereby raising it's temperature. In this respect, the decoction mash is similar to the step mash or temperature controlled mash. For example, the initial mash temperature and volume of the decoction can be chosen so that the temperature rise goes from the protein rest temperature to the sacharification rest (starch conversion) temperature. This would be called a single decoction mash because only one decoction was made. An additional decoction can be made to raise the mash temperature again to mash out (double decoction) or a total three decoctions (triple decoction) could be used to achieve an acid rest - protein rest - sacharification rest - mash out profile.
 
You're doing a decoction without the decoction if that makes any sence. There should still be plenty of enzymes left for conversion.
 
Yooper Chick said:
Doesn't that make it a decoction mash, then?
No, because a decoction is taking out a good bit of the thick part of the mash. It is also boiled.

I only want to take some of the mash water and not quite boil it.
 
Dude said:
No, because a decoction is taking out a good bit of the thick part of the mash. It is also boiled.

I only want to take some of the mash water and not quite boil it.

Ok, now I understand- just the wort to be, not the grain. Aha! Sorry, I'll go back to lurking and finding out what the experts have to say. ;)
 
The liquid part is called a thin decoction, usually done at mashout. Since you're not really boiling it for a period of time, it's not really a decoction, but at those temps the enzymes would be denatured.
 
Are you wanting to do this because your mash tun is too full to infuse? I think it would be easier and more time efficient to have the infusion water ready at the correct temp and just add it to raise the temp.
My biggest problem is I have been using an electrical immersion element turkey fryer and it takes way too long to heat the water between steps, so I have to heat the water for the both the first and second step to the hotter temp and add water for the first step but also add cool water to hit the lower temp. This sets me up to have the second step water hot enough in time.
Too much of a PITA so I ordered a Banjo burner that should arrive Thursday. Hopefully that will solve this problem.
 
No, my main reason for doing this is that in a step mash you'll sometimes end up adding too much infusion water to the mash, and that will affect other things (fermentables, mouthfeel, etc), so If I could keep my mash thickness where I like it, this would go a long way in helping me make better beer.

I am starting to get into stuff like this--liek not using cara-pils anymore--trying to dial in teh right mash thickness and temperature to compensate. It will make me a better brewer in the long run.

If you've ever done a step mash in a cooler, you'll know why I'm asking about this process. :D
 
I know your logic. I've been there. I would think it would work fine as long as you don't have a grain bill that's heavy on the adjuncts and specialty grain.
 
Brewsmith said:
but at those temps the enzymes would be denatured.


In that part of the liquid, the main mash would still have plenty of enzymes in it to get the job done.

You're one step away from decocting though, Dude.

:cross:
 
Yeah, I step mash in a cooler and never hit my target temps. Last brew, I ended up adding two extra gallons to get to the mash out temp. This leads me to believe mash outs suck. Then again, maybe mashing in a plastic cooler is what sucks. I have been heating my water at least 10F higher than the software tells me, which has helped.
Last night, I dreamed I mashed in my brew pot and just turned the burner on when I needed. Maybe a message from on high... I don't know.
 
Hey, a Noob AG,

Isn't that an Agricultural Sciences major, from Noobrewska?

I guess that would make lots of us homebrewers "Aggies" ?
 
You still getting that 10-gallon SS pot and making a direct-fired mash tun, Dude?

Why not a single decotion, though? You'd basically just be pulling thick mash instead of thin, right? I want to try a decoction now that I've seen it (direct from the Master), in part so that I can try some step mashes.

Hey, if Walker can start using a hydrometer, Dude can do a decoction, right?
 
the_bird said:
You still getting that 10-gallon SS pot and making a direct-fired mash tun, Dude?

Yes, eventually, but I thik it is quite a few months away from getting it operational. Need something else to help me in the meantime. Got a big step-mash brew coming up.

the_bird said:
Why not a single decotion, though? You'd basically just be pulling thick mash instead of thin, right? I want to try a decoction now that I've seen it (direct from the Master), in part so that I can try some step mashes.

Wha? I don't want to touch the grains at all. I want to heat the existing mash water only. A decoction in this scenario is just over-killing what should be a simple process.

the_bird said:
Hey, if Walker can start using a hydrometer, Dude can do a decoction, right?

I will NEVER do a decoction mash. I do not see the benefits. We've been through this.....you'll never change my mind unless my next shipment of bulk grain is undermodified pilsner malts. It won't happen. :p
 
Dude said:
I will NEVER do a decoction mash. I do not see the benefits. We've been through this.....you'll never change my mind unless my next shipment of bulk grain is undermodified pilsner malts. It won't happen. :p
If you do what you're talking about you will :rockin:

As someone mentioned, it's a thin decoction. Medium and thick decoctions have portions of grain, while the thin decoction is just mash runoff without vorlauf'ing. No need not to go all the way to boiling, either. In fact, I would as that will allow you to use a smaller decoction.

After mashing in and the mash being hydrated all of the enzymes are in the liquid portion of the mash so whatever you pull of will be denatured and you'll only be left with the enzymes that remain in the mash (so you want to leave a good bit of liquid in there). This is why most decoctions prior to mashout are of the medium or thick variety.

See you in decoction hell :mug:
 
Baron von BeeGee said:
If you do what you're talking about you will :rockin:

As someone mentioned, it's a thin decoction. Medium and thick decoctions have portions of grain, while the thin decoction is just mash runoff without vorlauf'ing. No need not to go all the way to boiling, either. In fact, I would as that will allow you to use a smaller decoction.

After mashing in and the mash being hydrated all of the enzymes are in the liquid portion of the mash so whatever you pull of will be denatured and you'll only be left with the enzymes that remain in the mash (so you want to leave a good bit of liquid in there). This is why most decoctions prior to mashout are of the medium or thick variety.

See you in decoction hell :mug:

Okay, I stand corrected. after chatting with the Baron on this further, it is indeed a decoction. I still don't agree this process is the same as a decoction, but I'm not going to split hairs. That said--he assured me that this process would indeed work, provided I do not pull off too much mash water. Pull it all and you kill too many enzymes. Makes sense.

SO.......my next step mash...is going to be a decoction mash. :D

There...I said it. :p
 
Dude said:
If you've ever done a step mash in a cooler, you'll know why I'm asking about this process. :D
I step up in my 5 gallon with hotter water until I run out of room for large beers (12-13lbs) or until my mash is exceeding my desired consistency on smaller beers.

Then I do exactly as you are suggesting. Draw off a quart or 2, heat it and reintroduce. I have great results except that I am prone to overheating and getting my mash to 158 instead of the 150-153 I'm shooting for.

I'll tell you one thing, you mash at 159 degrees and have a pound of cara...you got some mouthfeel baby....
 
Dude said:
Okay, I stand corrected. after chatting with the Baron on this further, it is indeed a decoction. I still don't agree this process is the same as a decoction, but I'm not going to split hairs. That said--he assured me that this process would indeed work, provided I do not pull off too much mash water. Pull it all and you kill too many enzymes. Makes sense.

SO.......my next step mash...is going to be a decoction mash. :D

There...I said it. :p

So we were right! This IS a decotion!

(I want to do one, too, now that I've seen Kai at work... :D)

I was thinking about this on the drive home... if the enzymes are predominantly in the thin part of the mash, why not pull and boil the thick part? What do you see as the benefit of pulling the thin part instead?

If I'm understanding this right, why not
 
the_bird said:
So we were right! This IS a decotion!

(I want to do one, too, now that I've seen Kai at work... :D)

I was thinking about this on the drive home... if the enzymes are predominantly in the thin part of the mash, why not pull and boil the thick part? What do you see as the benefit of pulling the thin part instead?

If I'm understanding this right, why not

Because my intention is to heat the mash--not necessarily create melanoidins or whatever the hell else a decoction does.

I would assume it would be more efficient to heat the mash water vs. the grains.

I guess I'm still not 100% convinced this is a "decoction" in the sense that I'm not pulling ANY grain.

More to come on this....
 
Dude said:
Because my intention is to heat the mash--not necessarily create melanoidins or whatever the hell else a decoction does.

I'm not convinced that you would, at least not to any material extent. I was just reading either Palmer or Noonan on decotions (can't remember which), and they were discussing that the color and flavor development comes as a result of a fairly long boil (20-30 total minutes boiling for all the decotions combined, IIRC). You'd be bringing to a boil (or maybe not all the way to a boil, nothing says you couldn't stop at 205°), then adding it back to the mail mash. The total time you boiled the thick mash could well be twenty seconds, not twenty minutes.

Just something to think about... hell, I'm anything but the expert here... :rolleyes:
 
the_bird said:
I'm not convinced that you would, at least not to any material extent. I was just reading either Palmer or Noonan on decotions (can't remember which), and they were discussing that the color and flavor development comes as a result of a fairly long boil (20-30 total minutes boiling for all the decotions combined, IIRC). You'd be bringing to a boil (or maybe not all the way to a boil, nothing says you couldn't stop at 205°), then adding it back to the mail mash. The total time you boiled the thick mash could well be twenty seconds, not twenty minutes.

Just something to think about... hell, I'm anything but the expert here... :rolleyes:

Exactly...you are on the right track to my assumptions as well. Technically this is not a decoction.
 
Semantics aside, if my first assumption is true (the enzymes are mostly in the thin part of the mash), I'd definately pull the thick. Why kill more enzymes that you need to?

Where are Billy and Kai when we need them? ;)
 
OK - since the title of the thread is n00b AG question, I am going to ask one. What is the difference between the 'thin' and 'thick' part of the mash? I am having trouble understanding the difference. I have read up on decoction mashes, but the best I can come up with is that you actually are boiling the thick grist???? If so, wouldn't boiling the grains lead to tannin extraction, or other problems??
 
the_bird said:
Semantics aside, if my first assumption is true (the enzymes are mostly in the thin part of the mash), I'd definately pull the thick. Why kill more enzymes that you need to?

Where are Billy and Kai when we need them? ;)
The advantage to pulling the thin is that you don't have to worry about scorching anything...just pull it and lay the heat to it. When it boils, dump it back in. With a thick mash you have to stir quite a lot to prevent scorching, but you don't really risk denaturing too many enzymes.

OTOH, after boiling the enzymes that you do pull, I'd definitely test for conversion before runoff just in case it takes longer than usual with the diminished enzymes.
 
If you were concerned about denaturing too many enzymes, could you toss in some amylase enzyme, or would that screw up how fermentable your worts end up? Or would that just be cheating? ;)
 
the_bird said:
If you were concerned about denaturing too many enzymes, could you toss in some amylase enzyme, or would that screw up how fermentable your worts end up? Or would that just be cheating? ;)
I don't think the Germans would be happy :cross:

At some point you have to wonder when it's worth it to just get a bigger cooler. Besides, the whole point of this is to get Dude to do a decoction and LIKE IT.
 
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