Landlord difficulties

Hi all,

My landlord is being an ass! I wondered if anyone has dealt with anything similar. I know that landlord/tenant laws very depending on where you are, but for the record, I am in Brooklyn.

I moved into this place in April. It is a GREAT find for Brooklyn. Good neighborhood, first floor, lots of space, very reasonable price, and the best part is a massive (for NYC) backyard with a great big concrete patio, a garden, and a giant, generous fig tree. I do NOT want to give this place up.

When we signed the lease, I briefly mentioned to him that I brew beer, and he raised no objections. He thought it was interesting and told me he wanted to try some of my beers.

Fast forward 4 months. We have been bugging him some time to fix several minor outstanding issues with the place, and I guess it got to be too much for him, as he called me up today and told me I was asking for too much and that he would be happy to let me out of the lease. I told him I certainly did not want to leave, and then he drops this bomb:

"I told you a while back not to brew your beer as it is an insurance liability"

He proceeds to claim it is some kind of fire hazard (I guess he means the propane tank, which I only use for the boil, on bare concrete, with nothing combustible within 10 feet) and says that lease allows only residential activities (I think he is assuming I sell it, though I made it clear I do not). He also claims he had heard nothing of this before we signed, which was completely untrue. I tried to convince him that brewing is no different from cooking, asking if I also need special permission to make waffles, but he wasn't really buying it. He has some major trust issues, and generally doesn't believe anything I tell him if he perceives any chance of negative impact or financial loss on his end.

As far as I know he can't kick me out for this, and he can't really do anything to make me stop brewing.

Has anyone dealt with a situation like this?

To me it makes a huge difference what constitutes "minor outstanding issues". If it really is minor, I would just stop asking for them and do it myself if its really necessary and then he will get off your back. Odds are he just doesn't want to deal with paying a contractor or repairman. Also, check to see if there are laws against using propane grills in attached multifamily homes. I know where I live it is against fire code, so I am forced to brew inside or else the condo association would go nuts.

never volunteer info like "I Brew Beer" .

we are outcasts.

Propane can be used legally in a two family residence, so if there's three or more units in your building, he can make you stop using it. There's also a minimum clearance amount, but it sounds like your backyard provides for that. Good luck. Best thing to do is probably make peace with him over the "minor" stuff and maybe he'll leave you alone. Although he obviously has obligations to you, sometimes its better to live peacefully.

could always go electric and indoors. I doubt very much that DIY electrics meet UL (or whatever,) but you also don't need to volunteer that you're brewing electric, either. stovetop is also an option. Just tell him that you've gotten rid of the propane.

Or ask for the number of his insurance agency and see if you can clear it with them

Airborneguy said:

Propane can be used legally in a two family residence, so if there's three or more units in your building, he can make you stop using it. There's also a minimum clearance amount, but it sounds like your backyard provides for that.

Click to expand...

But that is just inside, right? Sounds like he's brewing outside, so that means no issue as long as he's far enough from the building?

Yeah, the fact that I brew is not information I generally offer up when renting a place...if they come by and see the carboy's I'd say I'm making lots and lots of sun tea and didn't take it outside that day

Yeah, i'm of the opinion that ignorance is bliss. Landlords need not know we brew. We know it's safe, but they get panicky.

mosquitocontrol said:

To me it makes a huge difference what constitutes "minor outstanding issues". If it really is minor, I would just stop asking for them and do it myself if its really necessary and then he will get off your back. Odds are he just doesn't want to deal with paying a contractor or repairman. Also, check to see if there are laws against using propane grills in attached multifamily homes. I know where I live it is against fire code, so I am forced to brew inside or else the condo association would go nuts.

Click to expand...

+1 on telling us the minor issues, and I agree if they are minor enough just do them yourself and hopefully he will stop bugging you about brewing or if they are a cost that you would not be comfortable paying for check with the landlord that if you do all the legwork getting quotes, etc. that he will fit the bill.
And don't give him any beer to try untill he has done something to make up for pulling out the "stop hassling me or I'll evict you" card.

Hide the burner and tank and brew a few 3 gallon stovetop batches. At that point, there is NOTHING he can say. If its on the stove, it could be 3 gallons of wort or a big pot of gumbo for all he (should) care.

Do your boils in a park and then bring the wort back home for the rest.

Baja_Brewer said:

But that is just inside, right? Sounds like he's brewing outside, so that means no issue as long as he's far enough from the building?

Click to expand...

"In" meaning within the property. With multi-dwellings its illegal to have them on the property. Isn't it illegal everywhere to use propane tanks inside?

Don't sweat it too much - NYC's landlord/tenant laws make it all but impossible for him to toss you out unless you're in serious violation of your lease. Make sure you have adequate (legal) clearance for your flame from any structure, keep paying your rent on time every month, and steer clear of him for minor issues. Try to be cordial, but don't let him push you around.

chrispykid said:

Don't sweat it too much - NYC's landlord/tenant laws make it all but impossible for him to toss you out unless you're in serious violation of your lease. Make sure you have adequate (legal) clearance for your flame from any structure, keep paying your rent on time every month, and steer clear of him for minor issues. Try to be cordial, but don't let him push you around.

Click to expand...

+1 I agree don't let him push you around but also take care with the fact that if you play by the books he can't evict you as there are other ways to make someone leave without evicting them, i.e. raising the rent so that it's too high forr the worth of the property.

They can make rules stating certain things, like you can't store gasoline, diesel, propane on the premises. It just has to be in your contract when you signed it. Where I used to rent there were rules like that (an entire page about ferrets too haha). One of the rules was that you couldn't have an open flame within...I think it's 50ft from the building, but that was enforced by the fire department.

Landlords will say a lot of stuff to scare you so they can get out of keeping a place up. It's one of those "I won't kick you out, if you don't ask me to fix stuff" issues. Don't buy it, and tell him you'll take him to court if he doesn't fix up the place. He's full of s*** and he will back down.

As far as him raising the rent, he can do this but not until it's time to renew your lease. You can also tell him that you'll report him online. I know a ton of people that rent in my area, and they all go by what is posted on renter reviewing websites.

I say invite him over on brew day so he can see the process. Maybe he will change his mind, and of course let him sample some of your landlord lager.

Most municipalities have laws that prohibit any open flames within 100 foot of a multi-family occupancy.

Call his bluff on the brewing and look at your lease to see if it prohibits any outdoor grilling.

Sounds to me like this guy is a ****** and wants his properties to become slums.

What kind of electrical power do you have access to? If you have access to two 20 amp 120v circuits, build a couple of 2000 watt heatsticks and ditch the burner.

If you have access to 220v power, a single 5000 watt heatstick or an element in the kettle is an option.

Once you get away from using a burner, his complaints are invalid.

kevmoron said:

When we signed the lease, I briefly mentioned to him that I brew beer, and he raised no objections. He thought it was interesting and told me he wanted to try some of my beers.

Fast forward 4 months. We have been bugging him some time to fix several minor outstanding issues with the place, and I guess it got to be too much for him, as he called me up today and told me I was asking for too much and that he would be happy to let me out of the lease. I told him I certainly did not want to leave, and then he drops this bomb:

"I told you a while back not to brew your beer as it is an insurance liability"

Click to expand...

He wants you out for making demands on other issues which are gonna cost him cash. Beer is not the real issue here.

Sounds like your landlord is more of a slumlord and rather than fix the apartment he's just looking for reasons to get your ass out of the apartment. So he can get new tenants that don't expect him to fix the sh&t that is broken.

Isn't brewing beer with a propane tank just as dangerous as grilling with a propane tank? Are you not allowed to have a bbq either?

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

He wants you out for making demands on other issues which are gonna cost him cash. Beer is not the real issue here.

Click to expand...

+1 for sure. He probably has a line of people more than happy to rent the place with less issues and for more money.

Document everything.

This should be simple. Look in the lease. If it prohibits propane tanks then hide it, or make a deal with him. If it's not in the lease then he can't evict you for it.

The lease has nothing to do with the propane tank if you live in a dwelling with three or more units. It is prohibited by law in NYC.

samc said:

+1 for sure. He probably has a line of people more than happy to rent the place with less issues and for more money.

Click to expand...

If the place is a steal like you say it is. Stop bugging him for minor issues (which is what he wants). Also, chill on brewing outside for a little while until he seems normal again. Most landlords just want their rent on-time and long staying tenants. Judging by what you said about the place he could easily find new tenants quickly and possibly for more money. I would walk carefully and not make a stink if you really like the place. Maybe he can't evict you, but after a year he could raise the rent by a few hundred forcing you to move out.

Then again I don't know what 'minor issues' is. If something doesn't work that is one thing, but if you want like a wall repainted, something caulked, something upgraded, or anything else you could do by yourself for <$30-$40 or so then I would recommend to play nice.

Propane tanks in multihome dwellings are typically against fire code. Its just that most places it isn't enforced. But if he wants you out he could enforce it.

Airborneguy said:

The lease has nothing to do with the propane tank if you live in a dwelling with three or more units. It is prohibited by law in NYC.

Click to expand...

And in that case it is likely included in the lease or some accompanying document to make sure he covers his ass and keeps his insurance valid in the event of fire.

To the OP:

You will probably have to give up the propane and start working indoors. Unfortunately, your lease probably has some vague clause that would also allow him to evict you for using heatsticks (since they could be a fire risk), so you'll have to figure out a way to brew on the stove -- or brew away from your own home.

It sucks that he's being a dick about making repairs and tying the two issues together, but your recourse at best for his failing to make repairs is money. His recourse for you violating state or local laws and/or your lease is eviction. Try to sort things out without taking the "F you" attitude towards your landlord.

buzzkill said:

never volunteer info like "I Brew Beer" .

we are outcasts.

Click to expand...

I have learned in life to never volunteer any information to anyone. Period. Maybe your wife is OK.

How old is the building? If it's pretty old, I wouldn't go electric... that might end up being even more of a problem.

Also - is it in your lease that you cannot cook out on the deck or have BBQ's grills?

Invite him over for a brew day.

Then get him drunk and take pictures of him in compromising positions.

Can you get your hands on a sheep?

ReverseApacheMaster said:

And in that case it is likely included in the lease or some accompanying document to make sure he covers his ass and keeps his insurance valid in the event of fire.

Click to expand...

Exactly my point. If the landlord is up to code for the county or state laws, then he would have this information in the lease he provides his tennants. So again, all you really have to do is look in the lease.

If it's against the law, but not in the lease, then the landlord is at fault. Not the tennant.

TheMan said:

If it's against the law, but not in the lease, then the landlord is at fault. Not the tennant.

Click to expand...

Yes but no, if the landlord didn't put it in the lease and the tennant burnt down the house using a propane grill with out knowing that it was against the law (and probably needing to claim that he didn't know it was dangerous to do so) he would be in the clear, sort of. But in this case the landlord has now told the tenant it is not allowed for insurance, etc. reasons and now the tenant knows not to do it and has a duty of care not to burn down the house with a propane fire.

TheMan said:

If it's against the law, but not in the lease, then the landlord is at fault. Not the tennant.

Click to expand...

Good luck with that defense when you get caught by a Fire Official or Dept of Buildings inspector in NYC!

when dealing with landlords the best thing you can have is leverage. if the landlord slips up on anything and document it and if he ever hassles you bring up the things he slips up on.

Just remember the lease is a two way contract. If he doesnt do the things in the lease up to code then neither do you.

I'm in college at the moment and the landlady treats us like children. when i first signed on the lease it said that they would install a dishwasher by such and such a date. they installed the dishwasher about a month late. then one month our rent got lost in the mail and got to them two days late they said they were going to charge us a late fee. we said that we didnt think a late fee was fair since they were late with their end of the deal. so just remember leverage.

don't be afraid to flex some legal muscle in situations either. we all know that landlords would do the same thing.

oh and a good threat would be to figure out a place for reporting bad land lords. there has to be a site of that that gets a lot of traffic. the land lord is the vendor and you are the customer. you don't see car salesmen pushing customers around. also make it known that you know your legal rights and the right authorities to make a legitimate complaint. places like the better business bureau.

Airborneguy said:

Good luck with that defense when you get caught by a Fire Official or Dept of Buildings inspector in NYC!

Click to expand...

Exactly. Ignorance of the law is NO defense.

Also, remember that most landlords are not legally sophisticated and generally just use a fill-in-the-blank form they got from Office Max or used something they got off the internet. Usually, there is a clause that goes along the lines of "it is a violation of the lease agreement to conduct any activity on the property that is in violation of local, state, or federal law."

So, simple solution is to 1) check with the local fire inspector/building authority, and 2) READ your lease agreement, and 3) seek advice from an attorney licensed in NY... many will give you free advice over the phone or give a free office visit.

Tinga said:

Just remember the lease is a two way contract. If he doesnt do the things in the lease up to code then neither do you.

Click to expand...

Incredibly bad advice. If you don't follow the lease terms, then YOU have breached the contract just as the landlord has. In fact, it could even get you evicted. The courts are far less inclined to give a breaching party a remedy. Follow the law and the terms of the lease agreement and you will be in the driver's seat.

Has anyone realised that the OP has not repliedin 34 posts?

BigB said:

Incredibly bad advice. If you don't follow the lease terms, then YOU have breached the contract just as the landlord has. In fact, it could even get you evicted. The courts are far less inclined to give a breaching party a remedy. Follow the law and the terms of the lease agreement and you will be in the driver's seat.

Click to expand...

well that statement is more or less centered around my leverage idea. I don't mean you can flat out breach the contract but if the landlord breaches first you have leverage if you ever need some slack in another area. What i want to convey with that statement is that landlord's breach contract as well as tenants and it is so often looked at as the tenant is the only one that can do something wrong.

and a landlord is far less likely to bring it to court if both parties have breached because the land lord is the one with a reputation to protect. I'm not saying you should go out do something wrong i'm just saying use the land lord's mistakes to you advantage.

Call a Lawyer !!!!

I think that you are fairly safe with where you stand.

Read over your lease to make sure that you can use a Propane Grill.

If the Grill is covered than he has no leg to stand on, I would also press the issue about the things in disrepair.

You have specific rights be sure to use them !

Ever watch the Boondocks? This thread reminds me of when they go to court and the Judge looks up the state laws in Wikipedia...

I live on the 2nd floor of a three story apartment building and do the boil on the walkway, no one ever raises an eyebrow. I'm really lucky. Of course, they're college apartments too...

BigB said:

Exactly. Ignorance of the law is NO defense.

Also, remember that most landlords are not legally sophisticated and generally just use a fill-in-the-blank form they got from Office Max or used something they got off the internet. Usually, there is a clause that goes along the lines of "it is a violation of the lease agreement to conduct any activity on the property that is in violation of local, state, or federal law."

So, simple solution is to 1) check with the local fire inspector/building authority, and 2) READ your lease agreement, and 3) seek advice from an attorney licensed in NY... many will give you free advice over the phone or give a free office visit.

Click to expand...

don't forget to read the HOA rules as well. They can be tighter then muni regulations