Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

Last Sunday, I had some friends over to check out some ciders from this year and previous years. We made it through 20 bottles, plus a few growlers from what's currently on tap. 24 folks stayed coherent enough to both fill out rating sheets and remember to leave them here, which I believe is a record!

Looking at ratings and comments, it appears that the tastes break down into (roughly) three groups. The first group (which is the smallest) likes the dry ciders the best and will tolerate sweetness up to about 1.008, as long as there is a lot of apple flavor going on. The next largest group (which is where I fall in) likes the semi-sweet ciders better, as long as the finish isnt too acidic. The largest group prefers a sweeter cider with a tangy finish.

The highest scoring cider of the evening was the last one - Number 20. It got an average score of 8.6. Part of this score was no doubt due to the "drank 19 bottles of cider previously" effect, but also the apple flavor was really intense on this one. I thought it was a little too sharp in the finish and so did a couple of other folks - but the majority of folks liked the tartness.

The next highest score was number 10. It got an average score of 7.9 (which being in the middle of the evening was probably a more sober evaluation). It didnt get any rave reviews, but seemed to hit the spot for most everyone and didnt turn anyone off.

Number 16 was a close third behind #10. This was from a keg from last season that had got a little sharp. Last August, when I tapped the keg, I added 14oz of maple syrup to the keg. Being an alkaline sweetener, the maple really takes the edge off a sharp finish without adding too much sweetness. It was 1.010 when I originally crashed it, probably more like 1.012 now, after the extra sugar bump.

The Danstar BRY97 West Coast Ale yeast (new yeast that I tried this season) held up well. The unsulfited version scored the best, with an average score of 7.7, putting it in the top third. Given that this yeast was pretty easy to work with, I'll be doing some keg batches with it next season. Folks did not like the sulfited version as much, with an average score of only 6.3. for identical juice and yeast.

As usual, the dry ciders did not have very high average scores, although a few peopled liked them. The best overall score was the one that I stopped at 1.004 - which was dry enough for people who like them really dry, but did not completely turn off those who like a sweeter cider. Of the ones that I purposely fermented completely dry this season (D47, 71B, Premier Curvee and Cotes de Blanc), the folks who liked dry ciders gave the Lalvin D47 the best ratings, even though the average score was only 5.6 and some others scored higher on average. I also had one from over 5 years ago - Jonathan apples, pressed 9/18/08 with S04 ale yeast fermented to 0.996. That one scored an average of 6.4, which is not great, but not bad for a crowd that is generally pretty tough on a dry cider. Over the years, its developed a floral sort of taste, which is interesting.

Full results - with average scores in []:

Dry ciders - Spitzenburg, Arkansas Black, Ashmead's Kernal, Calville Blanc - pressed 11/23/13
1 Lalvin D47 yeast – fermented dry [5.6]
2 Lalvin 71B yeast – fermented dry [4.3]
3 Red Star Premier Curvee yeast – fermented dry [6.5]
4 Red Star Cotes de Blanc yeast – fermented dry [6.5]
5 Fermentis S04 yeast - stopped at 1.000 [6.0]
6 Brupaks Ale yeast – stopped at 1.004 [7.1]

7 Jonathan Apples, pressed 9/18/08, SO4 Ale yeast, very dry (0.996) [6.4]

Cortland, Gala Jonathan - pressed 9/19/13
8 Weihenstephan Wheat yeast, Sweet (1.018) [7.4]
9 WLP005 British Ale yeast, semi sweet (1.012) [7.3]
10 WPL041 Pacific Ale yeast , semi sweet (1.010) [7.9]

Stayman, Albemarle Pippen, Winesap - pressed 2/12/14
11 Danstar BRY97 west coast ale yeast yeast, semi sweet (1.012) [7.7]
12 Danstar BRY97 west coast ale yeast yeast, killed wild yeast before pitching, semi sweet (1.012) [6.3]

13 Stayman, Gala, Winesap apples, pressed 10/24/13, US05 Ale yeast, semi sweet, (1.008 ) [7.7]
14 Cville Cider pressing party (mostly Winesap), pressed 11/2/14, Brupaks Ale Yeast [7.8]
15 Stayman, Pink Lady, Gold Rush, Winesap, pressed 12/23/13, Nottingham Ale Yeast, semi sweet (0.010) [7.5]

Cortland, Grimes Golden, Empire, Gala, Summer Rambo, Jonathan - pressed 9/13/12
16 Brupaks Ale yeast, maple sugar, semi sweet (1.010) [7.9]
17 Brupaks Ale yeast, semi sweet (1.010) [7.3]
18 Weihenstephan Wheat yeast , semi sweet (1.010) [6.5]
19 German Wheat yeast, Orange Blossom honey, semi sweet (1.012) [7.3]

Stayman, Empire and Winesap - pressed 10/15/12
20 Bavarian Wheat yeast, semi sweet (1.008) [8.6]

Great tasting rundown CV, sounds like another successful night.

Update on my cider, have bottled it today! Took over 3 weeks to ferment.
Ended up cold crashing at 1.014 for 48hrs, then racked and left for another 6 days. Fermentation appears to have pretty much stopped, can see an occasional bubble so the S04 might still be slightly active.
However I racked yet again at bottling time, and i've bottled into PET bottles (with No added sugar) and will leave in the cellar, coming up to winter here soon, so should stay cool and dormant, or at least maybe add a slight carbonation.

The taste is great, can still taste that original fresh apple juice flavour, but with a nice tangy after taste, while maintaining some sweetness due to not fermenting right out. It is nice and smooth, and should mellow further over time i'd imagine.
The blackberry infused batch actually has an almost Rose'/Lambrusco wine (very light red wine) flavor to it up front, finishing up with a definite blackberry and apple aftertaste.

Thanks for all the info CV, i've learned a whole new process for making cider.

Hi Guys,

I am a very new cider maker, in fact, i am currently on my first ever batch. I started a 5 gallon batch of cider using fresh pressed unpasteurized cider from a local cidery and used whyeast 4766 sweetened to 1.70sg with brown sugar.
my issue is, i wanted to crash the cider at 1.10 but was on vacation and the cider fermented quicker than expected. I caught it at 1.00 and have crashed and racked to a secondary carboy.
i am concerned that i went to far with the cider as i was hopping for a sweeter cider. what can i do to impart apple flavour and sweetness if it tastes too dry and weak?

I like my cider sweet and apple-y. Almost like drinking apple juice. I ferment it out all the way and then add one can of apple juice concentrate per half gallon at bottling.

PRE66_6TART said:

I like my cider sweet and apple-y. Almost like drinking apple juice. I ferment it out all the way and then add one can of apple juice concentrate per half gallon at bottling.

Click to expand...

Doesn't that concentrate just ferment right back out to a dry cider? Does it actually leave more apple taste than what you had before?

smyrnaquince said:

Doesn't that concentrate just ferment right back out to a dry cider? Does it actually leave more apple taste than what you had before?

Click to expand...

After I add the concentrate I bottle and pasteurize to halt fermentation. Maybe I should have mentioned that. I just throw the bottles in the dishwasher on the heated dry setting.

I like my cider sweet and applely as well so i will definitely try your method.

thank you for the reply.

I've heard about pasteurizing in the dishwasher as well, is this typically safe to do on older models or only with ones that have a "sterilize" feature? Mine is probably about 15 years~ old but does have a hi-temp wash?

You would likely have to measure the peak temp on the dishwasher.

I have heard that there is a type of thermometer that can go through the dishwasher cycle and it displays the highest temperature that it attains until you shake it back down or reset it. I don't know a source, though. Maybe someone else here has a source? +1 from me on needing to verify it gets hot enough.

Hey CV, have you tried doing what I call "Super Easy Cider"? This may be addressed somewhere in the thread? I grew up drinking Murray's apple cider from Roanoke, Va. It is pasteurized and has no additives/preservatives. It's made from whole apples sourced from Virginia and West Virginia and it comes in a 1/2 gallon glass carboy. I sanitize around the cap, an airlock, scissors and yeast package, open the cap, pitch about 3 grams of safale s-04 and replace the cap and shake to mix. Replace the cap with the airlock. Ferment until around 1.010-ish and bottle. I get 5 bottles plus a hydrometer sample I stick in the fridge and drink later. The sugar level is just enough to add a little carb, but not need pasteurization. I've done this 3 times and have liked the results in all for a basic cider with a nice apple flavor, I just found some White's "Fresh Pressed" on sale that I am trying now with 1/4 c. honey added, because the SG was 1.048. Murray's has been around 1.050 to 1.054.

I have also used Murray's as a back sweetener. I have to use more than a concentrate, but I like that I know where the apples come from. I looked at a concentrate one time and it said the juice could come from Argentina or China!

I've heard that Murray's is available in gallons also. I emailed the company and one of the Murray family responded and said if I couldn't find it, I could come to their place in Roanoke! A closer drive for you than me! Anyway, I think it would be a great way to kind of standardize your experiments

mattmmille said:

I have heard that there is a type of thermometer that can go through the dishwasher cycle and it displays the highest temperature that it attains until you shake it back down or reset it. I don't know a source, though. Maybe someone else here has a source? +1 from me on needing to verify it gets hot enough.

Click to expand...

My thermometer is supposed to be able to measure peak dishwasher temps. Here's a link on amazon. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0021AEAG2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

mattmmille said:

Hey CV, have you tried doing what I call "Super Easy Cider"? This may be addressed somewhere in the thread? I grew up drinking Murray's apple cider from Roanoke, Va. It is pasteurized and has no additives/preservatives. It's made from whole apples sourced from Virginia and West Virginia and it comes in a 1/2 gallon glass carboy. I sanitize around the cap, an airlock, scissors and yeast package, open the cap, pitch about 3 grams of safale s-04 and replace the cap and shake to mix. Replace the cap with the airlock. Ferment until around 1.010-ish and bottle. I get 5 bottles plus a hydrometer sample I stick in the fridge and drink later. The sugar level is just enough to add a little carb, but not need pasteurization. I've done this 3 times and have liked the results in all for a basic cider with a nice apple flavor, I just found some White's "Fresh Pressed" on sale that I am trying now with 1/4 c. honey added, because the SG was 1.048. Murray's has been around 1.050 to 1.054.

Click to expand...

Is the fermentation "gentle" enough that it doesn't come up the airlock?

Just so I understand correctly, you ferment until 1.010, then bottle and let the fermentation finish? I take it that the cider finishes fermenting out dry, but not enough C)2 is produced to make bottle bombs?

smyrnaquince said:

Is the fermentation "gentle" enough that it doesn't come up the airlock?

Just so I understand correctly, you ferment until 1.010, then bottle and let the fermentation finish? I take it that the cider finishes fermenting out dry, but not enough C)2 is produced to make bottle bombs?

Click to expand...

Yes...I have not had airlocks fouled and the yeast and residual sugar usually are just enough to carbonate without creating bottle bombs. I cannot guarantee it, though! I'm sure it depends on the yeast you use and measuring your specific gravity correctly.

Definitely depends on your yeast, don't do this with something like a champagne or wine yeast as it could go as low as .995 or so if you give it enough time but should be okay if you're using an ale yeast like nottingham or S04/S05.

pricelessbrewing said:

Definitely depends on your yeast, don't do this with something like a champagne or wine yeast as it could go as low as .995 or so if you give it enough time but should be okay if you're using an ale yeast like nottingham or S04/S05.

Click to expand...

I absolutely agree! With my last batch, I went from 1.055-ish with no added sugar down to 1.006, a little more than I expected. So, I may not get much carb on it, but that's okay. I could have tried to back sweeten it a little, but I didn't bother. I usually do stick to s-04. I tried Champagne yeast with crab apples last Fall...my first couple of attempts at hard cider and it was VERY dry. Like a brut champagne.

Hello from Pilsen, the capital of Pilsner lager!

After reading CvilleKevin's research, I have decided to make some cider too. Having a very limited experience with brewing beer, I think the cider is much better for trial and error learning.

During this time of the year I have decided to start with supermarket pasteurized apple juice (juice OG 1.048).

First batch I did was 5L. I have added few tbsp of sugar, boosting it somewhere near 1.050. I have used whole pack of S-04 and after 6 days at 25°C I had FG 1.005. I have bottled 0.45L of the final cider with 0.05L of the original juice. I have left the bottles rest for 5 days at 21°C to carbonate and then cold crashed in fridge. The final product was great, but way too dry and it had yeasty aftertaste. "Backsweetening" in glass in 1:4 ratio created an optimal product.

For the second batch I have decided to make some changes to fix the yeasty aftertaste (and the dryness):

1) I have used only 1/4 of the S-04 package for 5L. (1 package is for 20L)
2) I have boosted the OG to 1.060.
3) I have tried to keep the primary at 21°C maximum. (lowest I can get this time of the year)
4) I have decided to rack it after a week, after the most violent fermentation, to get rid of the dead yeast.

Just to note, I have made two times 5L batch, one is cider with sugar and the other one is cyser with honey, both 1.060 OG.

I have racked the primary to secondary after 5 days, cider at 1.036 and cyser at 1.028.

The problem: I have checked the cyser after 5 days in secondary and measured 1.025, then I have checked the cider after 9 days in secondary and measured 1.032. This means that while in primary, the yeast ate 0.032 for cyser and 0.024 for cider. However in the secondary, they have only eaten 0.002 in 5 days and 0.004 in 9 days!!! I can see the yeast are not dead, I can see them bubling, but the secondary is way too slow. :-( Nothing even close to 8-10 days in total publicized by CvilleKevin's post on S-04.

Any ideas, what is the problem with my process? I guess it is the racking what slowed the colony of yeast, but that much, really? Or should I keep it only in primary and then bottle? How do I get rid of the yeasty aftertaste then?

Thanks for your advice!

I guess it is the racking what slowed the colony of yeast, but that much, really?

Click to expand...

Yes, racking will slow the yeast a lot. If you have a low nutrient juice, it can even stop fermentation

Or should I keep it only in primary and then bottle? How do I get rid of the yeasty aftertaste then?

Click to expand...

I wait until the cider has reach the desired SG, then crash. That gets rid of the yeast and the yeasty aftertaste. You will still want to keep the bottles cold after this, particularly if you are using store bought juice (which typically has higher nutrient levels so its harder to shut the yeast down completely). Keep in mind that if you cold crash successfully with S04, you will have removed nearly all of the yeast and wont be able to bottle carbonate, so the cider will be still unless you force carbonate it. Since you are using store bought juice, you could probably get away with crashing a couple points higher than your target, then bottle and leave at room temps for a few days until they carb up. Use plastic bottles or at least one plastic test bottle if you do this, so you dont overcarb and burst bottles. Then at the desired carb level, put them back in the fridge

Did you add any nutrient at the 1/3 break?.. I tend to add a little on small batches if I rack to a secondary...im currently running an experiment of one gallon racked to a secondary and the other gallon will remain in the primary till I bottle..both batches from the same split batch..OG 1.080 using red star pasture champaign yeast which I will ferment dry and backsweeten and carb it..not sure which method I want to use yet..

CvilleKevin:

So you basically ferment only in the primary, then cold crash and then bottle? Do the bottles still carbonate? I cold crashed the cider while already in bottle. Is that the problem?

I do the trick with the plastic bottle. I do only the bottle carbonation.

lolznrofls:

No I did not add any nutrient.

So you basically ferment only in the primary, then cold crash and then bottle? Do the bottles still carbonate?

Click to expand...

I ferment only in the primary, then cold crash and then force carbonate in a keg. The only time I cold crash and bottle is with one gallon experimental batches, and those bottles generally dont carbonate

I cold crashed the cider while already in bottle. Is that the problem?

Click to expand...

That is probably where the yeasty taste is coming from

Cold crashing in the bottle is where the yeast taste is I totally agree..i forget who just gave me this advice on a beer batch in another thread..the gentleman's advice was after their fermentation is over you need to let the little beasties clean up there mess a bit before you rack it.

If you cold crash in the bottle and are careful to not pour that yeast sediment into the glass, there really shouldn't be a yeast flavor. I would be curious what the fermentation temp was because that could cause a yeast flavor. There are bound to be other factors too, but that was my solution (dropping the fem temp). Ambient temp doesn't count for much of anything. Also, I found my 1 gal batches required more temp control/slightly lower temps.

If you cold crash in the bottle and some yeast is still in suspension wouldn't that lead to excess sediment in the bottle producing the off flavor?

lolznrofls said:

If you cold crash in the bottle and some yeast is still in suspension wouldn't that lead to excess sediment in the bottle producing the off flavor?

Click to expand...

Increased sediment yes, but I doubt it'll provide any off flavors unless you don't leave it in the fridge long enough or you don't pour properly. The amount of remaining sugar isn't enough to cause flavors when fermented, and the amount of yeast even without cold crashing is pretty low.

Hey Gang, thinking of trying a batch of cider soon. Do 1 gallon batches since that's all I have space for but if using dry yeast like Notty, US-05 or S-04, how much of a yeast packet would you recommend? Whole pack? Half? Thanks in advance!

1/5 of a pack will suffice with those (they are made for 5 gallons direct pitch up to about 1.060ish. A little extra won't really hurt you though, but a lot might.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

I've read through and followed this thread for a long time. I find the yeast and apple experiments informative. Do you have one favorite cider yeast? Does one yeast make a favorite, or does the types of apple mixtures have to match the yeast?

How to double my alcohol content in my cider

Can someone let me know thanks

Brewman, it depends what you're starting with. Healthy yeast, more sugar, aeration, temp control, and staggered nutrient and sugar additions. Higher alcohol will need to age longer to mellow.

CvilleKevin said:

.... Finally, if you use Nottingham, S04 or a lager yeast and add sugar, enough of the yeast will stay close to the bottom that you can stop fermentation before the sg bottoms out just by racking a couple of times, which is a lot less hassle than cold crashing....

Click to expand...

Hi Guys. I know i'm digging up a post from long but was hoping someone could shed some light on this part of the very first post made on this thread (quoted above). I tried to get my cider to stop fermenting by racking it a few times and was unsuccessful. Any thoughts on why this should work or what I am doing wrong? I started at 1.06 with heat pasteurized juice am using s04 etc.

microbiology said:

Hi Guys. I know i'm digging up a post from long but was hoping someone could shed some light on this part of the very first post made on this thread (quoted above). I tried to get my cider to stop fermenting by racking it a few times and was unsuccessful. Any thoughts on why this should work or what I am doing wrong? I started at 1.06 with heat pasteurized juice am using s04 etc.

Click to expand...

Those yeasts are beasts and racking does nothing. There is still enough yeast in suspension that it will kick back up. If you cold crash, you gave to keep it cold or it will kick back up (bottle bombs). Camden tabs (k-meta) and k(sorb together will get the job done. Back sweetening, priming, letting them carb a couple of days, and stovetop pasteurizing also works well for me.



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

I tried to get my cider to stop fermenting by racking it a few times and was unsuccessful. Any thoughts on why this should work or what I am doing wrong? I started at 1.06 with heat pasteurized juice am using s04 etc.

Click to expand...

Its mostly in the juice. For this to work, you need low nutrient juice and long cool fermentation. Even then its still tricky. You can search this thread and the web for more info on using nutrient reduction. Cold crashing a low nutrient juice is a lot more reliable. If you cant get low nutrient juice, pasteurize or keep it cold if you want a sweet or semi sweet cider

A couple of weeks ago myself and a few friends picked up 200 gallons of Cortland, Gala and Jonathan juice. A bin (22bu) of each apple variety. This has been my go-to early season mix for a while. This pressing was another good one. SG was only 1.048, so I added 6oz sugar per gallon. I sulfited 2 batches before pitching yeast: Wy3068 and WLP005. No sulfite added to the others, which were 2 Brupaks, 2 Wy3056, WLP041 and BRY97

Most of these are regular recipes. As far as experiments for this season go, this is the first keg batch I've done with BRY97. I did a gallon of it last year which came out good. This batch is tasting very promising. I just crashed at 1.009 this eve

For one Brupaks batch I did half turbinado and half regular cane instead of the regular 2:1 turbinado/dextrose mix. I did this sugar mix once last year when I ran out of dextrose, and I liked the taste. Its not as close to the natural apple taste, just a little more beery, which is a nice change of pace. Plus the sugar is cheaper and I can get it at the supermarket if LBHS is closed. I crashed the two Brupaks batches yesterday.



I added 12 drops of Fermcap-S to one of the Wy3056 batches, to see if it would keep the krausen down. It had zero effect. If anything the batch I added the Fermcap to created slightly more krausen. The two Wy3056 batches were the first to crash, a few days ago. I just racked them to 5 gallon to let sit for a while.

The timing of this season has worked out great. The nights have been nice and cool which has kept the ferments slow and spaced out, so not too much to handle each day.

CvilleKevin said:

Its mostly in the juice. For this to work, you need low nutrient juice and long cool fermentation. Even then its still tricky. You can search this thread and the web for more info on using nutrient reduction. Cold crashing a low nutrient juice is a lot more reliable. If you cant get low nutrient juice, pasteurize or keep it cold if you want a sweet or semi sweet cider

Click to expand...

Thanks for your help- this thread has helped me a lot. I didn't know you were still posting here but since you are I have a question for you.

It seems like you go through a little bit of extra trouble to "front sweeten" and then stop the fermentation at the perfect time rather than "back sweeten" a fully fermented cider. In both cases one could use the same sugar blend to sweeten so in your opinion why is the outcome different? Do the yeast ferment the added sugars first and leave the apple sugars that have a different taste?

Do the yeast ferment the added sugars first and leave the apple sugars that have a different taste?

Click to expand...

Exactly. Most of the flavor of the cider disappears between 1.005 and 1.000. Once you are at 1.000, you can add sweetness back, but not flavor (unless you are adding juice back, but even then, its not the same flavor). That is why a lot of the commercial sweet ciders have a fairly high sugar level, but not a lot of flavor IMHO.

Just about all of the sugars in cider are fermentable, and given enough time, most yeasts will get around to eating all of them. But the yeast does seem to prefer the simpler sugars first.

Getting the sugar up to 1.060 or 1.065 also makes the fermentation easier to stop, as the ABV is higher and nutrient levels are lower

CvilleKevin said:

Getting the sugar up to 1.060 or 1.065 also makes the fermentation easier to stop, as the ABV is higher and nutrient levels are lower

Click to expand...

I'm glad to see a sane reason for adding sugar when making cider, that is well thought out and clearly explained.

I have a six gallon carboy going with WL 300, 3 batches going with WY 3068, and two batches with S04. I would like to crash them on the sweeter side. All are in the basement where temps range from 64 to 70 degrees, generally hovering around 67. All had extra sugar added to bring the SG up to 1.06-1.065. How soon should I start testing SG if I'm hoping to catch them in the 1.02 range? Will they start to clear any before they reach that point?

How soon should I start testing SG if I'm hoping to catch them in the 1.02 range

Click to expand...

I'd expect the S04 batches to take about 7 days to get to 1.020. Probably 10-14 days for the wheat yeast batches. Depending on the nutrient level in the juice, it could go faster or slower. To be safe, I'd test after about 5 days, see where you are there, and based on your 5 day reading, plan to test again in a few days.

Will they start to clear any before they reach that point?

Click to expand...

Probably not, but it depends on the type of apples