Belgian Dark Strong Ale Westvleteren 12 Clone - Multiple Award Winner

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Hanso said:
Did I get this right?
Is the lid on tight without an airlock or something? Or your blow off is clogged?
Click to expand...

No, it's not clogged. The CO2 is just building up faster than it can vent through the blowoff tube. It's going crazy in the growler full of sanitizer I have going, but it's still not fast enough. I haven't gone down to look at it this morning, but I'm hoping the lid is still on.

Edit: I just checked it and all is well. Still gurgling away. Looks like the Fermcap did it's job because there is no krausen in the tubing. I almost knocked myself out with all the CO2 when I opened the freezer ; )

Had to start the cooling side of the temperature control because it was starting to creep over 80 degrees.
 
CSI said:
It sounds like it could be clogging in the airlock. If it's bowing out it should be bubbling like crazy and throwing krausen down the capture tube.

The soaked bourbon oak cubes sounds like a really nice variation. We're experimenting with timed small batch, (5 gallon), medium toast oak barrel aging, 1 month, 2 month, & 5 month. I have no idea how it will turn out but my guess is it will be goooood :)
Click to expand...

From doing a bunch of barrel aging, not for souring, here are my tips:

1. Anything more than a month could be overkill when dealing with a 5 gallon barrel.

2. As you re-use a barrel, each subsequent use takes a little longer to extract the flavors and aroma. Still, I would not recommend more than a month.

-Greg
 
GregKelley said:
From doing a bunch of barrel aging, not for souring, here are my tips:

1. Anything more than a month could be overkill when dealing with a 5 gallon barrel.

2. As you re-use a barrel, each subsequent use takes a little longer to extract the flavors and aroma. Still, I would not recommend more than a month.

-Greg
Click to expand...

Thanks Greg. Your advice is consistent with everything I've read so far on small barrel aging.
 
So, another question for the pros....

I raced to a better bottle for secondary and am using the same vessel for tertiary in the chest freezer. I have a good yeast cake going on in the BB and since this is all new ground to me I'm not sure if I should be worried or not. Should I rack to a new vessel to get it off the cake or let it sit another ~50 or so days as planned? Freezer is set at 46* FWIW.
 
ruger988 said:
So, another question for the pros....

I raced to a better bottle for secondary and am using the same vessel for tertiary in the chest freezer. I have a good yeast cake going on in the BB and since this is all new ground to me I'm not sure if I should be worried or not. Should I rack to a new vessel to get it off the cake or let it sit another ~50 or so days as planned? Freezer is set at 46* FWIW.
Click to expand...

Removing the ale from the flocc'd primary yeast cake is a good idea assuming a diacetyl rest is complete. Autolysis is not normally a problem on standard ales but it can be a problem in high gravity ales. If the gravity is down to 1.012-1.013 the ale will be in good shape to move to brightening (tertiary).

If using a conical, having a large discharge diameter is helpful in dumping the primary yeast to maintain secondary in the same vessel. (If using a BB, then it will be siphoned to the next sterile vessel and off of the cake). Note: I try to mention that using plastics when brewing this ale may not be the best option. (PET, PP, HDPE and LDPE will eventually sluff the plastics in higher alcohol environments). Of these PET is probably the most resistant to alcohol.
 
I'm down to 1.008. Debating the risks of moving to a third vessel vs just going ahead and bottling a little sooner now.
 
ruger988 said:
I'm down to 1.008. Debating the risks of moving to a third vessel vs just going ahead and bottling a little sooner now.
Click to expand...

Even though bulk aging is the preferred method, I've bottled 3 weeks from brew day with excellent results. It will age in bottles (but I have a hard time keeping my hands off long enough to find out when it will peak).
 
Is there any problem with doing the wort boil down in the kettle with some of the first runnings and then putting the rest of the wort (after the sparge is complete) on top - and then begin the boil?

The only reason I want to do this is to reduce the number of pots i dirty :)
 
Likefully said:
Is there any problem with doing the wort boil down in the kettle with some of the first runnings and then putting the rest of the wort (after the sparge is complete) on top - and then begin the boil?

The only reason I want to do this is to reduce the number of pots i dirty :)
Click to expand...

Other than taking a little more tiem I don't see much of a difference doign it that way. Where will you keep the rest of the first runnings while you boil it down? Seems like you'll be dirtying something else no matter what.
 
Likefully said:
Is there any problem with doing the wort boil down in the kettle with some of the first runnings and then putting the rest of the wort (after the sparge is complete) on top - and then begin the boil?

The only reason I want to do this is to reduce the number of pots i dirty :)
Click to expand...

It has to be almost constantly stirred when it starts getting thick to keep from burning it. That may be a little awkward in a large kettle, but other than that it should work fine.
 
ruger988 said:
Other than taking a little more tiem I don't see much of a difference doign it that way. Where will you keep the rest of the first runnings while you boil it down? Seems like you'll be dirtying something else no matter what.
Click to expand...

I am glad I asked my first question - my impression is that the boil down will make a pot quite messy and a bit of work to clean. Or is it critical to stop boiling down while it is still runny enough not to be difficult to clean?
 
Likefully said:
I am glad I asked my first question - my impression is that the boil down will make a pot quite messy and a bit of work to clean. Or is it critical to stop boiling down while it is still runny enough not to be difficult to clean?
Click to expand...

Be sure to add the wort onto the maltose caramel in small amounts then stir well to dissolve the thick syrup off of the bottom, (otherwise it may burn under the boil out of sight once the heat is turned up). The subsequent mixing and boil should clear the boil pot.
 
So, five days in after brewing, I checked the gravity. It still has a good bit of krausen on it and was at 1.034. I'm going to leave it warm for a few more days and see how much it comes down. If it's not below 1.02 by then, I'll probably pitch some new yeast and see if it'll get going.
 
Ok, feeling better now. After a week, it's at 1.022 and the krausen has dropped. I feel like it'll still drop .004-.006. A little higher than I'd like, but not terrible.
 
I am a little confused with the fermentation schedule both here and on the CSI site.
Fermentation Process Notes
---------------------
1/5/2012 - Primary Fermentation (7 days at 63F ending at 80.0 F)
1/23/2012 - Secondary Fermentation (3 -10 days at 78.0 F ending at 60.0 F)
1/26/2012 - Tertiary Fermentation (40 days at 50.0 F ending at 50.0 F)​

First part I understand. Starting low and raising the temp over a week sounds great to me.

As for Secondary fermentation - Why are we reducing the tempreature, especially if there is still some residual sugar to be fermented out? Shouldn't we leave it at a higher temp to encourage the yeast to finish it off? Dropping the temp at this point, especially in a high alcohol enviroment would only encourage the yeast to floc out and give up. Taste and aromatics are mainly made in the first few days of fermentation, so it shouldn't make a difference to its flavour profile. Unless you want higher levels of Acetylaldehyde that the yeast didn't get a chance to clean up?
 
georgefudge said:
I am a little confused with the fermentation schedule both here and on the CSI site.
Fermentation Process Notes
---------------------
1/5/2012 - Primary Fermentation (7 days at 63F ending at 80.0 F)
1/23/2012 - Secondary Fermentation (3 -10 days at 78.0 F ending at 60.0 F)
1/26/2012 - Tertiary Fermentation (40 days at 50.0 F ending at 50.0 F)​

First part I understand. Starting low and raising the temp over a week sounds great to me.

As for Secondary fermentation - Why are we reducing the tempreature, especially if there is still some residual sugar to be fermented out? Shouldn't we leave it at a higher temp to encourage the yeast to finish it off? Dropping the temp at this point, especially in a high alcohol enviroment would only encourage the yeast to floc out and give up. Taste and aromatics are mainly made in the first few days of fermentation, so it shouldn't make a difference to its flavour profile. Unless you want higher levels of Acetylaldehyde that the yeast didn't get a chance to clean up?
Click to expand...

CSI can answer those question more eloquently than me, but in the meantime, the temperature is only lowered when at or near final gravity (1.012).

You are right that most of the flavor profile is established in the first few days of fermentation. However, that short time is not sufficient to introduce the complexities desired in this beer.
 
georgefudge said:
I am a little confused with the fermentation schedule both here and on the CSI site.
Fermentation Process Notes
---------------------
1/5/2012 - Primary Fermentation (7 days at 63F ending at 80.0 F)
1/23/2012 - Secondary Fermentation (3 -10 days at 78.0 F ending at 60.0 F)
1/26/2012 - Tertiary Fermentation (40 days at 50.0 F ending at 50.0 F)​

First part I understand. Starting low and raising the temp over a week sounds great to me.

As for Secondary fermentation - Why are we reducing the tempreature, especially if there is still some residual sugar to be fermented out? Shouldn't we leave it at a higher temp to encourage the yeast to finish it off? Dropping the temp at this point, especially in a high alcohol enviroment would only encourage the yeast to floc out and give up. Taste and aromatics are mainly made in the first few days of fermentation, so it shouldn't make a difference to its flavour profile. Unless you want higher levels of Acetylaldehyde that the yeast didn't get a chance to clean up?
Click to expand...

The primary is a given of course. When primary is complete the gravity *should* be at or around 1.012 - 1.014 assuming a healthy pitch. Diacetyl can be absorbed in smaller amounts even at slightly lower temps than previously expected. For the Westamalle strain a secondary at two days at 70-75F will consume most of the Diacetyl in what Chris White terms '" an uneccessary temperature modification" The brightening, (tertiary), is only for clarifying the ale but we have noticed some interesting aging and mellowing characteristics as well. Some have skipped this step altogether and done very well. I think the monk's idea on this stage is to clear any exhausted yeast and prepare for fresh yeast at bottling. There are a lot of reasons that this method seems redundant but we do it as a tradition outside of brewing science since it is reported that the monks at St. Sixtus do it this way :)
 
Hello....thanks for your posts on this clone. Love this beer.

Q on the boil down....have you tried without this step? Curious about the overall impact. Do you know if this step is done for Westvleteren 12?

Apologies if this was already discussed and I missed it.
 
Live2Brew said:
Hello....thanks for your posts on this clone. Love this beer.

Q on the boil down....have you tried without this step? Curious about the overall impact. Do you know if this step is done for Westvleteren 12?

Apologies if this was already discussed and I missed it.
Click to expand...

Yes, it can be done without the wort boil-down. There is a back palate char flavor that some describe as 'tanned leather' in the import. The boil down approximates some of this but it is not necessary to making the clone.
 
Bottoms_Up said:
Wasn't it also largely to reproduce the color characteristic?
Click to expand...

Yes, I think saq implemented the boil down to boost SRM. It's a good point to bring up also. Saq then began using D-180 for both color and flavor. Since D-180 was darker the wort boil down was used only intermittently, (or possibly the extra effort was too much for an already complex brew).

Admittedly, I have not used a boil down in some time since D-180 already adds the profile palate without it.
 
CSI said:
Yes, I think saq implemented the boil down to boost SRM. It's a good point to bring up also. Saq then began using D-180 for both color and flavor. Since D-180 was darker the wort boil down was used only intermittently, (or possibly the extra effort was too much for an already complex brew).
Click to expand...

Yes, that's when he still used 2 pounds of D-90 and only 1 of D-180, which, by itself, resulted in a low SRM. Changing it to 3 pounds of D-180 and no D-90 darkens it sufficiently.
 
Checked my gravity today, which would be 12 days since brew day. To my happiness, it had got down to 1.014. I racked it to secondary on some bourbon barrel staves I had cut into one inch chunks and soaked in bourbon for a couple months.

I'm super impressed with this recipe; I've never used this yeast before and it is an absolute beast. In 12 days, it went from 1.092 to 1.014. No fusels and just the slightest amount of heat for such a green beer. The amount of flavor in a beer brewed with one grain and candi syrup is amazing. Kudos to everyone who put in hard work to perfect this recipe. Once I get the oakiness I want, I'm going to bottle and let it age for some time. I brewed it for my daughter's first birthday in June, so I probably won't open one until then.

Cheers!
 
So maybe this has already been concluded, but are you guys saying that if I use 3 lbs D-180 Candi Syrup, I don't need to do the boil down? I think the boil down sounds like a neat step, but if I can avoid work, I'll do whatever it takes.
 
ThunderpantsBrewing said:
So maybe this has already been concluded, but are you guys saying that if I use 3 lbs D-180 Candi Syrup, I don't need to do the boil down? I think the boil down sounds like a neat step, but if I can avoid work, I'll do whatever it takes.
Click to expand...

Yes, the boil down was an extrapolation early on. It does add more maltose caramel and some color but is *not* essential to making this ale remarkably close to the import.
 
Hopefulyl I'm not going to far off topic with this post but thought some may be interested. I'm doing a scaled down version of this as a dubbel tomorrow. Going to do the boil down and everything, cutting it back to 1lb of D-180 and shooting for ~7.5% ABV, using Brewer's Gold this time as well instead of the Magnum I used in my quad.
 
ruger988 said:
Hopefulyl I'm not going to far off topic with this post but thought some may be interested. I'm doing a scaled down version of this as a dubbel tomorrow. Going to do the boil down and everything, cutting it back to 1lb of D-180 and shooting for ~7.5% ABV, using Brewer's Gold this time as well instead of the Magnum I used in my quad.
Click to expand...

A lower gravity version (OG 1.076) worked out very well for me. (It was an accident but a happy one). The FG was way down there around 1.005 or 1.006.
 
Tried a true Westvletern 12 again last night (my second ever). Are they supposed to be consistent in taste? I could swear that this bottle was not as malty, not as fizzy, and more fruity than the bottle I had several months ago. Also, the Westy was served cold, which seems a mistake, since the taste improved significantly as it warmed up. Does anyone know what the recommended temperature for serving a Westvletern should be? Based on my observations last night, my guess would be between 50-55 F.
 
Bottoms_Up said:
Tried a true Westvletern 12 again last night (my second ever). Are they supposed to be consistent in taste? I could swear that this bottle was not as malty, not as fizzy, and more fruity than the bottle I had several months ago. Also, the Westy was served cold, which seems a mistake, since the taste improved significantly as it warmed up. Does anyone know what the recommended temperature for serving a Westvletern should be? Based on my observations last night, my guess would be between 50-55 F.
Click to expand...

Our exact observation as well. This year, (2014), seemed to be a year of change for the Westy 12 import. We attributed it to a change in the grist, possibly all Pils rather than Pils/Pale. That same observation prompted us to split the Westy clone recipe out to a single malt Pils only version, (in addition to the BLAM Spec version).

(we serve the Westy's at 60F)
 
ruger988 said:
Hopefulyl I'm not going to far off topic with this post but thought some may be interested. I'm doing a scaled down version of this as a dubbel tomorrow. Going to do the boil down and everything, cutting it back to 1lb of D-180 and shooting for ~7.5% ABV, using Brewer's Gold this time as well instead of the Magnum I used in my quad.
Click to expand...

A dubbel with Brewers Gold is really good. There is a Westy 8 clone with D-180 and Brewers Gold out there for reference (or modification).
 
CSI said:
A dubbel with Brewers Gold is really good. There is a Westy 8 clone with D-180 and Brewers Gold out there for reference (or modification).
Click to expand...

Got a link? Brewed mine up today and hit dead on target at 1.070. I'd like to see how similar the 8 recipe out there is.
 
I have a question about the wort boil down. It seems you can do without it but I'm wondering what affect that will have on my OG? Would I need to compensate by adding more sugar? Also it was mentioned to not use a plastic fermenter. I have one of the new fast ferment plastic conicals that I would love to use on this beer. I can dump trub, harvest the yeast and it has a thermowell for temp control. What affects would this have to use it? Another option is that I could use it for the first two phases of fermenting and for the final lagering transfer to a keg for. Would that work? Thanks for any help. Awesome thread!
 

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