Any tips for a first time Lager brew

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Prymal

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Hey everyone,

I just got my Lagering setup complete and have a brew planned for this weekend.

BoHo Pils

11 lbs Pilsner Malt
.75 lbs Cara-Pils
60 min 1.25 oz Saaz 4.4%
30 min 0.75 oz Saaz 4.4%
10 min 1.00 oz Saaz 4.4%
0.0 min 1.0 oz Saaz 4.4%
2 packets Saflager W-34/70

Est OG: 1.059
Est FG: 1.014
IBU: 34.5

I am thinking about doing a step mash with rests at 110, 140, 150, 168?
I have RO water that comes out at 1 TDS should I add any brewing salts?
What fermentation schedule should I use with this Yeast as I have no experience with it.
 
Make sure you pitch enough yeast and pitch the yeast when your wort is at fermentation temps. Avoid pitching hot.

If you pitch enough yeast it will take off just fine.
 
Straight RO water is fine for a BoPils, but some do add some calcium sulfate.

For the steps, I assume you're decocting? I normally do a different schedule, with a higher temperature protease rest (131), a mid-range saccrification rest, and then decoct to mash out, although I've had good results with a Hochkurz double decoction with pilsers as well.

I've never done an acid rest, or need a to break up beta-glucanase so I've never done a rest as low at 110. That's a bit unusual, I think. If you want to do a short protein rest (if that's the point of that rest), I'd go a bit higher.

I've never used that yeast strain so I don't know which temperatures to suggest, sorry!
 
Are you planning on a decoction or just step mashing? Personally I would toss in the decoction to get to your step mashes if you plan on making all the effort for all those steps.

In reality I would simplify a bit. I did a BoPils and did a single infusion with a 22minute boiled mash out decoction that turned out great. I used all distilled water for my attempt.

Most people rec something like this for fermentation schedule:

1. cool wort to 45F then pitch yeast
2. raise wort up to 50-55F and ferment
3. at the end of fermentation do a diacytel rest.
Lager for 1-2 months minimum.

Check out this thread for my first pursuit and the information that lead me to my decision on how to brew this.
 
Thanks for the good info. I am a BIAB guy so decoction really isn't an option.

They why the steps, particularly the 110 degree one?

If you really want to step mash, and the malt is well modified, you could do a short higher temperature protein rest and then a mid-range saccrification rest. I wouldn't do such that mash schedule on a pilsner anyway, but definitely not in an infusion mash.
 
I was reading up on lagering and I read I think on palmers website that that was a Pilsen step mash schedule. So what schedule would you suggest? 131, 150, 168. If I can figure out how pull a decoction I would do it only to raise for 150 to 168. I am a little worried about the ph of my mash with pure RO. I typically run about 5.7 - 5.8 on a pale ale with no adjustments, that is why i was going to do an acid rest.
 
Thanks for the good info. I am a BIAB guy so decoction really isn't an option.

Why would BIAB hold you back from doing a decoction? Open the bag, pull your decoction and boil and return to the mash.

If you have a stove and a decent sized pot you should be ok. Obviously an extra burner or similar works too.
 
I was reading up on lagering and I read I think on palmers website that that was a Pilsen step mash schedule. So what schedule would you suggest? 131, 150, 168. If I can figure out how pull a decoction I would do it only to raise for 150 to 168. I am a little worried about the ph of my mash with pure RO. I typically run about 5.7 - 5.8 on a pale ale with no adjustments, that is why i was going to do an acid rest.

Don't do a protein rest step mash because a recipe says so. Do a step mash if your malt requires it. I'd recommend you stay with the 15/0/168 routine.
 
with pils malt you will want to do a 90 min boil to drive off DMS so allow for the extra boil off volume
 
Don't do a protein rest step mash because a recipe says so. Do a step mash if your malt requires it. I'd recommend you stay with the 15/0/168 routine.

I am using Rahr Premium 2-row (I have never use it before do I need to do a protein rest with this grain?)
What does 15/0/168 mean?

To everyone else I plan to do a 90 min boil.

Any suggestions for the best fermentation temperature for the W-34/70 yeast?
 
I am using Rahr Premium 2-row (I have never use it before do I need to do a protein rest with this grain?)

how can you do a bohemian pils, without pilsner malt? I would change your base malt to pilsner, preferably of a german variety if you want to stay true to BoPils.
 
CidahMastah said:
how can you do a bohemian pils, without pilsner malt? I would change your base malt to pilsner, preferably of a german variety if you want to stay true to BoPils.

Sorry I am so used to typing 2-row I actually bought rahr premium pilsner malt. My LHBS does not stock any imported malts.
 
150/168 refers to the steps in your original mash schedule. With the malt you've got I'd definitely skip a protein rest.
 
Why would BIAB hold you back from doing a decoction? Open the bag, pull your decoction and boil and return to the mash.

If you have a stove and a decent sized pot you should be ok. Obviously an extra burner or similar works too.

According to http://www.franklinbrew.org/tools/decoction.html I would need to pull 15 quarts of thick mash and boil at 210 to reach my 168 mashout. My biggest pot is 10 quarts and I don't have a "spoon" long enough to reach the bottom of my Keggle to pull thick mash.
 
Denny said:
FWIW, unless you live far above sea level, you won't boil at 210F.

Regardless I don't have the volume to be able to perform the decoction so I will be step mashing. I just need to figure out if I should acid rest at 110-113 based on my previous statement that my ph sits around 5.7 with unadjusted RO water or I can add 2 oz of acid malt which should bring it within range. What do you suggest.
 
I suggest you worry about mash pH and not water pH. If the acid malt will get your mash in range, do it. But if you're basing it solely on water pH, you should get Brunwater and plug in your water and recipe values.
 
Denny said:
I suggest you worry about mash pH and not water pH. If the acid malt will get your mash in range, do it. But if you're basing it solely on water pH, you should get Brunwater and plug in your water and recipe values.

5.7 is my typical mash ph with a ph meter using unaltered RO water. Based on your advice I will skip the acid rest and just add 2 oz of acid malt
 
That's definitely the way I'd approach it given the info gave. Acually, I'd do it the easy way and use some lactic or phosphoric acid.
 
Denny said:
That's definitely the way I'd approach it given the info gave. Acually, I'd do it the easy way and use some lactic or phosphoric acid.

Thanks for all of the help but I don't have either of those items on hand and work nights with the LHBS only open until 5 pm and a 30 minute drive away. I think I'll stick with the acid malt and see how it goes. I don't have amazingly high hopes for my first lager/pilsner we will see how this goes and adjust in the future.

Again thank you all for the advice.
 
One last question? Can I carb while lagering? For example, lager in a keg for 4 weeks then add the co2 and continue to lager for another 2 weeks. Or should I wait out the whole lager period before applying the co2.
 
One last question? Can I carb while lagering? For example, lager in a keg for 4 weeks then add the co2 and continue to lager for another 2 weeks. Or should I wait out the whole lager period before applying the co2.

You sure can carb while lagering. I always do.
 
If it makes you feel any better, I will be doing a straight up single infusion for my next lager to determine if all the decoction stuff makes a big difference to me or not. Also will be doing a side by side distilled water batch vs my well water which is similar to a dublin style.

Not sure when that will be scheduled though. Good luck
 
In the middle of my brew day now. Sac rest at 150 but the decoction didn't go to well, I pulled 10 quarts of thick mash brought it to a boil and held for 10 minutes. I then returned 100% of the mash back and my temp had only reached 160 where i was shooting for a mash out and 168. I just used the gas burner to raise the rest of the way to mash out. I have to assume that my decoction volume was just wrong. I am sure that I achieved the melanoidin production through the decoction even though I didn't hit my temps.
 
Did you hit your EST OG? If so all is well - no reason for a 168 mashout with highly modified Pilsner malt besides a higher temperature assisting in flushing out sugars... Especially when the next step is to boil it. Then again skipping mashout is one of those "opinions". I brew almost exclusively Pilsners and have yet to have a tannin issue... knock knock... I use Weyermann's Bohemian Pilsner with a bag of Castle Pilsner here and there...
 
estimates OG was 1.060 my messured OG was 1.064. My eff was 77.8%, I am going to underpitch by about 50 billion cells based on mr malty which is kind of annoying but not to terrible.
 
Fermentation ended at 1.010 which makes my final ABV 7.1% so i guess this has become a bit of an imperial pilsner. I did a 36 hour d-rest 2 weeks ago at which point I didn't taste any Diacetyl but now I do :mad:. Have had it lagering at 40 since the d-rest. I just transferred to a keg where it will sit on gas until the 4th of July hopefully the diacetyl will reduce a little more over the next 2 weeks.
 
Fermentation ended at 1.010 which makes my final ABV 7.1% so i guess this has become a bit of an imperial pilsner. I did a 36 hour d-rest 2 weeks ago at which point I didn't taste any Diacetyl but now I do :mad:. Have had it lagering at 40 since the d-rest. I just transferred to a keg where it will sit on gas until the 4th of July hopefully the diacetyl will reduce a little more over the next 2 weeks.

When did you do your D-rest? (what gravity was the brew at that time)

You may need a little longer lagering time since the ABV is so high.
 
I did the d-rest around 1.020 I didn't take notes on that point. I currently have the keg raising back up to room temp and will let it sit at least a week based on some other threads about topics like this. I might also Kreusen the beer is the week at 70 doesn't help.
 
That sounds about right for your drest.

I think you will be ok, but it might just taste a little harsh. I tried a friends lager and it had some diacetyl right off, like slick on the mouth. That was right out of the fermenter before lagering (he did a drest too). It was slight and after lagering for 1 month or so it was noticeably less and gone in 2 months. Don't get frustrated, it just might turn around.

I would recc you keep it lagering as close to 32C as you can get it. Do let us know how it turns out though. Good luck!
 
Absolutley I will keep you updated. Like I said I was hoping this was gonna be ready for the 4th which would have been 1 month totaly lagering. The butter was pretty overwelming so i want to try atleast the post kegging d-rest just for kicks, worst case it doesnt do anything and I lost a week, no big deal I have enough in the pipeline to work it out.
 
Absolutley I will keep you updated. Like I said I was hoping this was gonna be ready for the 4th which would have been 1 month totaly lagering. The butter was pretty overwelming so i want to try atleast the post kegging d-rest just for kicks, worst case it doesnt do anything and I lost a week, no big deal I have enough in the pipeline to work it out.

I know where you are coming from though. It takes up a lot of space and time to do a lager. So I am always anxious until I finally taste it and it works out :D
 
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