Munich Dunkel Water Profile

I've spent the last two hours scouring the web and a stack of old brewing books for a tried and true water profile for this beer and I still haven't found anything that seems remotely applicable. Most of what I've found is just the standard Munich profile, though I can't imagine it could be right for a dunkel with such a high sulfate/chloride ratio...?

Anyone have a water profile for a dunkel they would care to share? I'm going crazy here trying to come up with something that looks right.

Thanks!

You don't need to over-think this and you don't need to replicate a historical Munich water profile. As a dark beer a higher carbonate level is OK and some chloride for fullness and flavor is appropriate IMO. My suggestion would be to use a combination of calcium carbonate and calcium chloride to achieve a Ca+ number in the ~100 ppm range, CO3- of ~100-150 ppm and Cl- of 50-75ppm.

Thanks for the response.

How does something like this look? I don't have any chalk at the moment.

Ca - 60, Mg - 9, Na - 25, Sulfate - 42, Cl - 71, Bicarb - 126, Hardness - 192, Alk - 104

Estimated mash PH, 5.3.

I can see that your search did not lead you to Bru'n Water. It includes the most researched and verified water profiles anywhere. The Munich profiles included in that software show very modest Cl and SO4 content so you'll find it suitable for a Dunkel.

Enjoy!

bierhaus15 said:

Thanks for the response.

How does something like this look? I don't have any chalk at the moment.

Ca - 60, Mg - 9, Na - 25, Sulfate - 42, Cl - 71, Bicarb - 126, Hardness - 192, Alk - 104

Estimated mash PH, 5.3.

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That should be fine.

PS BigEd: those sulfate and chloride levels are FAR too high for a Dunkel. Not so fine.

mabrungard said:

PS BigEd: those sulfate and chloride levels are FAR too high for a Dunkel. Not so fine.

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They are a lot higher than I would use myself but I doubt it's going to make a terrible beer.

mabrungard said:

I can see that your search did not lead you to Bru'n Water. It includes the most researched and verified water profiles anywhere. The Munich profiles included in that software show very modest Cl and SO4 content so you'll find it suitable for a Dunkel.

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You know, I've been using Bru'n Water for a few months now with great success and I never even bothered to look at the Munich profile on the water adjustment. I just assumed it was the same very high sulfate/chloride one that is posted all over the web and on the other spreadsheets. Now I know better...

Also, your Munich profile is more like what I was expecting it to be - though I still am a bit confused. First, how necessary is it to have such high bicarbonate (295) and alkalinity (244) in a beer like this, so long as I can get an appropriate ph with softer water? Lastly, I had assumed this style would benefit from a higher cl:so4 ratio than what is listed, though is there a point where the cl:so4 ratio doesn't really matter with the ppm levels so low? Is a beer with 36 s04/16 cl any more different than one at 18/8?

Thanks for your help!

Other than bicarb and the attendant hardness (calcium) Munich water is pretty low in mineral content. Chloride/sulfate ratios may be applicable in brewing British beers but they are definitely not applicable in brewing most lagers as the desireable chloride to sulfate ratio for most of them in infinite sulfate as low as possible. Thus low sulfate water is really what is desired for dunkles and while the chloride is also low for Munich water most beers benefit from a modest amount of chloride.

You ought to be able to make a pretty fine dunkles by using RO or other low mineral water with a bit of calcium chloride and nothing else. Acid should not be needed as the dark malt should supply enough in most cases. As with any other style you should check mash pH with a recently calibrated meter as where the actual pH falls can vary dramatically with the amount and type of dark malts employed. Should your water resemble Munich's i.e. if it is high in bicarbonate this is especially important.

You should definitely not add chalk to brewing water. This is difficult to do properly and more trouble than it is worth. Chalk (or another alkali) can be added to the mash should the mash pH come in too low. This is not likely, even with RO water, given the amounts of dark malt required to produce a good dunkles.

bierhaus15 said:

Also, your Munich profile is more like what I was expecting it to be - though I still am a bit confused. First, how necessary is it to have such high bicarbonate (295) and alkalinity (244) in a beer like this, so long as I can get an appropriate ph with softer water? Lastly, I had assumed this style would benefit from a higher cl:so4 ratio than what is listed, though is there a point where the cl:so4 ratio doesn't really matter with the ppm levels so low? Is a beer with 36 s04/16 cl any more different than one at 18/8?

Thanks for your help!

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Recognize that pre-boiling and decanting the brewing water is and was an effective treatment option for highly alkaline water like Munich's. The high levels shown are the current levels reported for Munich, but please recognize that the brewer now and historically reduced the alkalinity for their brewing. That is why Bru'n Water also includes a relatively conservative estimate for the Munich water profile after it has been boiled (Munich (boiled) profile).

That post-boil water Munich profile may be more appropriate for a Dunkel, but they may have also included a small percentage of unboiled and decanted water in the mash to avoid creating too acidic a mash for their tastes. That unboiled Munich profile would probably not make a very good Dunkel or many other beers. As AJ says, avoid adding alkalinity unless its absolutely necessary. Don't try to recreate a Munich profile, aim for the boiled version.

I agree with AJ that at the low Cl and SO4 levels in Munich water, there wouldn't be much effect from the SO4/Cl ratio. Don't worry about the ratio, but do make sure that the levels are relatively low. I am a proponent of AJ's contention that sulfate is not a good component of European Lagers.

Enjoy!

Sorry to dredge up an old thread.

I brew with RO water. In dark ales, I've been mashing the base malts with 2% sour malt and 1tsp calcium chloride and then adding the dark, roasted, toasted malts during the sparge.

Would this method be recommended for dark lagers, like a dunkel?

The only potential problem I see with doing this is that if the dark grains have been selected properly the mash pH would be proper were all the grains mashed together and the kettle pH would, presumably track and also be appropriate. If you added to this mash sauermalz in addition to the dark malts the pH would be too low in the mash and the kettle. If you with hold the dark grains and substitute sauermalz as a source of the acidity mash pH will be again restored and, presumably, kettle pH would also be proper but if you mash with sauermalz and add dark grains later then there is danger that kettle pH will be too low. That probably isn't as much of a problem as mash pH out of spec but it is something to think about. I have never bought the argument that dark grains shouldn't be mashed with the main mash because I have never experienced the problems that mashing them together supposedly causes but I know a lot of brewers do it that way.

Thanks AJ.

My reasoning for withholding the dark grains in ales is that it mellows out a kind of char flavor that I seem to be sensitive to in dark/black grains.

I realize that this flavor probably wouldn't be a problem for me in a lager that I plan on using de-husked, roasted grains (Carafa I or II) in. However, I'm thinking about a decoction in which the caramel and other dark grains are withheld until after the decoction as an experiment of sorts.

As I type this, I am realizing that I am probably making things more complicated than they need to be but I guess that is the curse of the homebrewer.

If I do decide to withhold the dark grains and substitute sour malt in the mash, the kettle pH could end up too low. What are the symptoms of this? Acidic flavors in the finished beer, etc?

I'm afraid the best answer, which really isn't much of an answer at all, is that the beer won't be as good as it otherwise might be. The yeast are the major factor in setting wort pH - they set it to whatever is ideal from them. If wort pH is too high they secrete more acid, if it is too low, less. One can argue that if they have to secrete more because the brewer presented them with a high pH wort they are forced to divert metabolic energy from beer production to acid production and thus there are fewer of the flavor compounds we seek. The converse of that argument would be that low wort pH would benefit the beer because more energy can be turned to desirable compound production but we know that's not the case.

While I agree that the yeast are the major determinants for beer pH, I've found that the final kettle wort pH DOES have an effect on the final beer pH and overall beer flavor. Of course, if you are dealing with an alkaline water source, then the acid's anion could have a flavor effect. However even when brewing with RO or distilled water, there is a flavor impact.

Starting with a wort that has a lower than desired pH will make the resulting beer tarter. I expect that this may have been observed by the brewer in post #11.

So, perhaps I should abandon the idea of separating the grains altogether.

If I mash all the grains at the same time, is RO water with 1tsp of calcium chloride (skipping the sour malt) the way to go for Munich Dunkel?

PS. I just want to make sure it's known just how much I appreciate the fact that you two, being the biggest rock stars in the world of brewing water chemistry, still, after all these years, dedicate so much of your time to addressing our water concerns and answering our questions (over and over). This is a unique privilege that I am truly grateful for.

mabrungard said:

While I agree that the yeast are the major determinants for beer pH, I've found that the final kettle wort pH DOES have an effect on the final beer pH and overall beer flavor.

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That's the nature of feedback regulatory systems. The less you demand of them, the better they regulate. If you stress them, regulation isn't perfect.

mabrungard said:

Starting with a wort that has a lower than desired pH will make the resulting beer tarter. I expect that this may have been observed by the brewer in post #11.

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I really question this. Do we think of ales as being tarter than lagers because their pH's are typically a couple of tenths lower? The pH scale is a log scale and most things in nature that respond logarithmically (which is lots and lots of things) require a change of about 0.3. Do phosphates (now known as 'sodas') taste sour (pH around 3)?

mabrungard said:

I expect that this may have been observed by the brewer in post #11.

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He doesn't say anything about it. Just that apparently serves him well with ales.

mabrungard said:

Recognize that pre-boiling and decanting the brewing water is and was an effective treatment option for highly alkaline water like Munich's. The high levels shown are the current levels reported for Munich, but please recognize that the brewer now and historically reduced the alkalinity for their brewing. That is why Bru'n Water also includes a relatively conservative estimate for the Munich water profile after it has been boiled (Munich (boiled) profile).

That post-boil water Munich profile may be more appropriate for a Dunkel, but they may have also included a small percentage of unboiled and decanted water in the mash to avoid creating too acidic a mash for their tastes. That unboiled Munich profile would probably not make a very good Dunkel or many other beers. As AJ says, avoid adding alkalinity unless its absolutely necessary. Don't try to recreate a Munich profile, aim for the boiled version.

I agree with AJ that at the low Cl and SO4 levels in Munich water, there wouldn't be much effect from the SO4/Cl ratio. Don't worry about the ratio, but do make sure that the levels are relatively low. I am a proponent of AJ's contention that sulfate is not a good component of European Lagers.

Enjoy!

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Martin, what would you recommend to increase the calcium levels then? For example if I use the Munich Boiled profile and just started with R/O, I would have to add 11.2 grams of Calcium Chloride just to achieve 44 PPM of Ca on a 12 gallon batch. This would take my Cl to 80.5 ppm which is higher than I want to go. Would I be better off trying to use the "brown malty" profile and get my Cl to around 67 w/ Ca at around 37? I'm just having a hard time trying to figure out where I'm going to get enough Ca to ensure good yeast health while keeping Cl low.

Are you using the supporter's version of Bru'n Water in which you can signal that you intend to add all the minerals to the mash? That does enable a brewer to boost the calcium content in the mash (primarily to improve enzyme activity and beerstone reduction), while reducing the overall calcium content in the finished wort. That effect is more pronounced when your sparging water has very little calcium content. I target a Ca content of 40 ppm in the mash with this technique to help assure that oxalate (beerstone) is reduced in my lager worts. Having low Ca content in your water and your resulting kettle wort is less a concern when brewing ales since ale yeast tend to be far more tolerant of elevated calcium levels in water.

The good thing about the technique is that it also enables you to avoid elevating the chloride or sulfate level (if that worries you).

I'm not unfortunately. Here's what I'm looking at starting w/ R.O. and adding 10 grams of CaCl and nothing else to my 17.8 gallons of mash water (12 gallon no sparge batch).

Calcium (ppm) Magnesium (ppm) Sodium (ppm) Sulfate (ppm) Chloride (ppm)

41.3 0.0 8.0 1.0 75.4

I have just cross referenced Modern Home Brew Recipes by Mr. Strong and he said that he also starts with R/O and then simply adds 2 tsp of CaCL for his recipe which should be roughly equal to the above. I'm nervous about the Cl based on your recommendation but I'm scared to decrease the Ca even further. Are you saying that I will get a Ca boost by adding it to the mash tun vs. the HLT? I usually mix everything in my kettle including acid additions and then transfer that over to my mash tun.

With No Sparge, that option that I mentioned, won't exist since there isn't any sparging water to dilute the original mashing water content. The chloride content that you propose isn't excessive, but it can easily be moderated by exchanging some of the calcium chloride for gypsum. That can be a good thing.

While Gordon has embraced the falsehood that sulfate affects noble hop perception, it is not true. Sulfate in brewing water aids in drying the finish of beer and it does not make beer bitter nor does it make the perception of noble hops rough or coarse. Chloride tends to leave the palate coated and that is perceived as more malty and full. Supplying only chloride in your brewing water can make beers finish too full. 20 to 30 ppm sulfate will be help dry the finish and can be used to reduce the overall chloride content while keeping calcium content at an adequate level.

mabrungard said:

While Gordon has embraced the falsehood that sulfate affects noble hop perception, it is not true.

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Well it must be true for Gordon and it sure as hell is true for me.

ajdelange said:

Well it must be true for Gordon and it sure as hell is true for me.

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Thankfully, there are plenty of good Pilsner producers in Germany and Czech Republic that either have significant sulfate content water or add sulfate salts to their brewing liquor that seem to differ with your perception. While I concede to your personal preferences, I can't allow that perception to be quoted as fact for the vast majority of beer drinkers.

It is, of course, a matter of personal preference and I don't like a lot of those beers you refer to. Please note again, and you did, that Gordon states that sulfate an NOBLE hops don't mix well. You need to understand that while much of the appeal of the Noble cultivars is in their heavenly aroma a large part of it lies in the fineness of the bittering they impart. Sulfate destroys that fineness. So if you use Noble hops with high sulfate water it's sort of like buying an old master and replacing the painting with a velvet tiger from Tijuana. The frame is still nice and you like the picture but you've thrown away much of what you have paid for. In case the analogy isn't clear: beer made with noble hops and sulfate may taste OK but it doesn't represent the best that can be achieved with Noble hops.

I think that is what Gordon is trying to say and he is quite correct in my opinion. That says that there are at least two of us in agreement on this which implies that there are probably more (Gordon and I are each unique in our own ways but probably not in this particular way) but does not claim that our opinion is universally held nor even held by the 'vast majority' (though it probably is). There are certainly plenty of beers made with high sulfate water made in Germany but do they use Noble hops? Probably not as other cultivars are grown in Germany and they must be going somewhere. Of course I don't have any detailed information on this and will readily accept that there may be, and in fact probably are, some breweries using Noble hops and high sulfate water. And though I couldn't believe it at first, I've had bad beer in Germany (not very often though).

I can't allow the idea that Gordon's conclusions are a myth to stand and that's why I posted #22 and this.

Just as a footnote to this: I've heard rumors that PU is adding some sulfate to their liquor. Don't know if it's true but the obvious question that leads to is "Is today's PU as good as it was 20 years ago?" I'd say "no" but they sell a lot more of it.

Thank you both for your input. I had to laugh at the Velvet Tiger comment but otherwise this seems like a nice healthy debate. I'll have to make a decision here and I'll come back to post my results in a couple of months.

Ultimately it isn't up to Martin (or me or Gordon) to tell you what to do. It is up to you to figure out what seems reasonable, to experiment and, based on what you taste, decide how you want to proceed.

ajdelange said:

Ultimately it isn't up to Martin (or me or Gordon) to tell you what to do. It is up to you to figure out what seems reasonable, to experiment and, based on what you taste, decide how you want to proceed.

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True. I appreciate the feedback from both of you. I'm thinking I'll do just the CaCl method since I haven't tried this yet. I did not like my last dunkel and I'm pretty sure it was water related. This is one of my favorite styles of beer so I'll be doing some experimentation to try and nail down a recipe for good.