Sake?

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GordoBrews

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Found this recipe, and am using it as a demo at a local Fermentation Festival.

homebrew [email protected]

In a 1-gallon jug

4 ½ cups rice
3 cups sugar
handful of raisins

Fill with spring water (or in my case, preboiled tap water), and pitch yeast (have heard general purpose or cake yeast works well, but I’m using White Labs WLP 705 sake yeast). Put it in a cool place, and ferment for 10-20 days.

Anybody tried anything like this without komi koji? How'd it go? I'll post results when it's done.
 
4 days in, and the yeast are definitely doing their thing. So much so, in fact, that they overtopped the airlock some time in the first 48 hours. I'd suggest using a blowoff tube to anybody who tries this in the future.

It is now happily bubbling, and a cloudy off-white color.
 
I've been reading up on this and it seems the komi koji is needed to convert the starch in the rice to sugar.
By adding raisins to the mix, maybe you will just end up with a raisin wine flavoured with rice?

Unless the sake yeast is enough to change the rice on its own
 
I've been reading up on this and it seems the komi koji is needed to convert the starch in the rice to sugar.
By adding raisins to the mix, maybe you will just end up with a raisin wine flavoured with rice?

Unless the sake yeast is enough to change the rice on its own

That's absolutely right, komi koji is usually used to provide the fermentable sugars. The process of making it looks to be fairly involved, for example as in this link
About Koji - A Starter For Making Saké@Everything2.com

So I decided to try a simpler recipe first.

Anyone know of any place to buy kome koji? I haven't had any luck finding it.

Also, I didn't soak (or cook) the rice first. I
 
Yeah I lookt up this one too, its not possible without that koji bacteria! NO CLUE where to find it!

Wierd how it ferments starches into sugarsalcohols!
 
I have another hint for you:

If you get serious about Sake, get your rice from this place: F. H. Steinbart Company - Beer and Wine Making Supplies and Equipment

Sake rice is typically milled down, with the more expensive rice milled down over 50%. The rice you can buy here is the same rice that Sake One uses to make Momokawa (I have been to the sakaria in Forest Grove Oregon, and they told me where to get it).

Sake One rice is milled to 60% (meaning 40% of the grain is gone), which will reduce the lipids in you sake making for a cleaner beverage.

Good luck!
 
you can use regular rice, but you should use the short grain varieties and wash extremely well. Our rice in the states is heavy fortified, I actually have a batching starting right now. I bought the Koji-Kin from some online shop, to my surprise the mold seeds came from Australia. The Mold is apparently very resistant to extreme conditions in spore form. First you make the rice and you pour the mold spores in, then after that sets you make more rice throw it in add water and yeast then you wait. no need for a fermentation bucket, I just use a stock pot. A old brew kettle should work fine just make sure you got a lid or cloth to cover it.:ban:
 
I've used something like OP's recipe. I didn't use any raisins, just rice, sugar, some yeast nutrient and champagne yeast. Fermentation was crazy. The airlock was bubbling at an almost constant rate.

It was a five gallon batch, but it actually yielded only a dozen 750ml bottles worth. The rice soaked up most of it. It was very cloudy, not like the store-bought sake I've bought before. As I understand, cloudy sake is called "nigorizake" so that's what I consider it. It's either that or "doburoku". I don't know the difference and I'm not weeaboo enough to really care.

Whatever it is, it's damn tasty. It came out a lot sweeter than I expected, but it's not cloying. I didn't take any gravity readings, but the next time I whip up another batch I will. I'd also like to try using real koji-kin, too, but I'm really happy with the results of my first batch and want to see if I can get the same results a second time.
 
So, racked the question mark sake out of the gallon jug it was fermenting in. It was initially cloudy, and tasted very much like hard cider, not really what I'm accustomed to thinking of as sake.

After a few days in the fridge, tried it again, and the cider taste was a little milder, and I could smell something vaguely reminiscent of sake. It was much sweeter than the sake I've had, but the finish was when I could taste something like sake in the flavor. It also cleared up substantially as some of the sediment settled out, and now has the color of a pale white wine. The guy who said that this might end up like raisin wine was probably not far off, but I think the sake yeast I used may have given the finish some sake character.

Thanks to all who posted for the valuable discussion.
 
Welcome back Taylor-Made. I just ordered a sake starter kit and was going to have to look up your site but you conveniently posted it. Thanks!
 
Hey, thanks for the welcome back, Nurmey. =) I don't always remember to check in on this site for sake questions or discussions, usually just when I start seeing a lot of referred hits on my web site coming from here. Thank goodness they have that "similar threads" thingy at the bottom that points me to all the sake discussions that haven't mentioned my site. That having been said, I'm always available to answer questions.

How are things in Omaha these days? I have family on my mom's side who live there, but I haven't visited there or really heard from them in...oh...about 20 years. My wife still doesn't believe me that there are actual brick streets there. =) But, being an Alaska Native who hasn't traveled much, she hasn't really seen too much in the way of infrastructure or architecture that's more than 50 years old.
 
Great info, Taylor-Made.

I'll try your method this winter when my basement is in the right temperature range.
 
Hey, thanks for the welcome back, Nurmey. =) I don't always remember to check in on this site for sake questions or discussions, usually just when I start seeing a lot of referred hits on my web site coming from here. Thank goodness they have that "similar threads" thingy at the bottom that points me to all the sake discussions that haven't mentioned my site. That having been said, I'm always available to answer questions.

How are things in Omaha these days? I have family on my mom's side who live there, but I haven't visited there or really heard from them in...oh...about 20 years. My wife still doesn't believe me that there are actual brick streets there. =) But, being an Alaska Native who hasn't traveled much, she hasn't really seen too much in the way of infrastructure or architecture that's more than 50 years old.

Funny you mentioning having relatives in Omaha since I live here but my relatives are in Anchorage (my home town). Tell you wife that there are still brick streets in Omaha and they are very bumpy to drive over.
 
I noticed some people were looking for Koji, and there were a few ppl from MD posting here. Annapolis Home Brew carrys Koji-Kin cultures as well as wyeast sake activator packs. They are located in Severna Park or try www.annapolishomebrew.com. I personally havent made Sake before its one of the next things on deck.
 
What about using dextrose instead of table sugar? I've always heard people complain of "cidery" flavors when plain sugar is used in beer, so I imagine using dextrose instead would allow the flavor from the rice and Sake yeast to become more exposed.
 
Hey Taylor-MadeAK, I just realized that you wrote the article in BYO (Nov 2008) that I was going to follow when I brew up a batch of sake soon. would you still advise following the recipe and steps listed in that article or have you revised either (for the beginner)? I'm sure I will have many more questions for you, if you don't mind advising me. Thanks!

For those in the NYC area having problems finding Koji, I found quite a few containers at a place near St. Marks Place called Sunrise Mart. And yes, they were those Mr Taylor suggested in the article (Cold Mountain Rice Koji, 20 oz).
 
Hey Taylor-MadeAK, I just realized that you wrote the article in BYO (Nov 2008) that I was going to follow when I brew up a batch of sake soon. would you still advise following the recipe and steps listed in that article or have you revised either (for the beginner)? I'm sure I will have many more questions for you, if you don't mind advising me. Thanks!

For those in the NYC area having problems finding Koji, I found quite a few containers at a place near St. Marks Place called Sunrise Mart. And yes, they were those Mr Taylor suggested in the article (Cold Mountain Rice Koji, 20 oz).
The article I wrote for BYO is essentially a slightly condensed version of the guide on my web site. I haven't made any major revisions to it, but slight tweaks are always being made (like the metric measurements I added in) and sections that I get frequent questions about are always being re-worded for clarity. Following the BYO article is fine, but if something about it causes you to have questions the most immediate answers can usually be obtained from my web site either in the main guide or the FAQ I wrote to accompany it.

If you still can't find the answer to your question, no matter what the question is, I'm always easy to reach via e-mail and Windows Live! Messenger.

Grimster said:
So has anyone tried bottling sake like beer with a pinch of sugar to make sparkling sake?
I haven't tried it because my technique involves double pasteurizing the sake, but if you want to omit the pasteurization and give sparkling sake a whirl go for it! Just remember that you'll need to dilute your sake down to a more reasonable alcohol content and probably add a little fresh yeast to get proper carbonation in a reasonable amount of time.

gecko45 said:
What about using dextrose instead of table sugar? I've always heard people complain of "cidery" flavors when plain sugar is used in beer, so I imagine using dextrose instead would allow the flavor from the rice and Sake yeast to become more exposed.
I'm lost as to what you're responding to, but I can answer a dextrose vs. sucrose question. Yeast makes its own invertase (and plenty of it!), so using sucrose (table sugar) in place of dextrose in any fermentation application causes zero problems. "Cidery" flavors come from too warm fermentation temperatures that result in the production of a lot of acetaldehyde, not from the use of refined sugar of any type. The idea that refined sugar in beer contributes to off flavors is antiquated, yet perpetuated by the continued inclusion of "The New Complete Joy of Homebrewing" in many new homebrewer's starter kits.
 
Yeah I lookt up this one too, its not possible without that koji bacteria! NO CLUE where to find it!

Wierd how it ferments starches into sugarsalcohols!

Sorry, chiming in late. Komi Koji can be purchased at the Asian Markets in your area. It is usually referred to as Enzyme. I made sake from the Korean variety. Most won't drink it. I don't particularly like sake, just wanted to give it a go to have the experience. The Koji gives it a necessary flavor. I don't think a result without it is really sake, just a rice alcohol or wine.

I'm curious how it ended up and am sure I better read beyond the first page of posts. :tank:
 
Now I've read the whole thread. Great information. I have just a couple things to add. Hopefully they will help others out and start some discussion that can make us all better sake makers.

First, here is the post regarding my attempt at sake. I tried twice. Both were pretty nasty. I cooked the rice both times and used Korean 'enzyme' koji from the local Korean food market in SLC. It definitely gives it the sake aroma and I believe is an intricate part of sake. This leads me to my second thing...

Second, due to the process of the koji converting rice starch to sugars that are ultimately fermented, I am guessing that the recipe here in this thread is really not exactly sake. I presume the added sugar is fermenting and the rice, raisins, etc are just adding flavors. Since there is no enzyme to convert the rice to anything fermentable, it only adds flavor but is not itself fermented. The recipes I've seen for sake don't include sugar because it comes from the rice after conversion (done by the koji). I don't say this to start an argument, but to state my understanding of sake. Maybe I'm wrong and I know there are other experts out there than can expound so we all can make sake that doesn't suck. Mine sucked and I have lots of it, so anyone interested, come and get it...

A friend of mine makes his own whiskey. He adds sugar and some burnt wood chips and high alcohol resistant yeast to ferment it out. This recipe seems the same but using raisins and rice for flavor instead of burnt wood and no distilling at the end.

Thoughts?
 
Want my thoughts? Okay, here you go. =)

knipknup said:
Sorry, chiming in late. Komi Koji can be purchased at the Asian Markets in your area. It is usually referred to as Enzyme.
No, koji is always referred to as koji. Only Korean nuruk is ever labelled as "enzyme" for the English speaking market.

knipknup said:
First, here is the post regarding my attempt at sake. I tried twice. Both were pretty nasty. I cooked the rice both times and used Korean 'enzyme' koji from the local Korean food market in SLC. It definitely gives it the sake aroma and I believe is an intricate part of sake.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but you didn't make sake. By using nuruk (the Korean "enzyme") to convert the rice, what you actually made was makgeolli. If by "nasty" you really mean sour, that's just how makgeolli is. In its homemade state it's generally considered a rustic farmhouse victual and is generally sweetened up with sugar to taste by the imbiber right before consumption.

Nuruk is very different from koji. The former is made mostly from cracked wheat and wheat flour under conditions that are nowhere near as controlled as those under which koji is made. While aspergillus oryzae is certainly present in nuruk, it is not the pure saturated monoculture that koji is. It's the presence of other wild yeasts and bacteria that contributes to the signature sour flavor of makgeolli. Also, sake yeast is always added to the starter step (shubo or moto) of sake brewing, whereas nuruk is the sole source of yeast for a makgeolli fermentation.

knipknup said:
Second, due to the process of the koji converting rice starch to sugars that are ultimately fermented, I am guessing that the recipe here in this thread is really not exactly sake. I presume the added sugar is fermenting and the rice, raisins, etc are just adding flavors. Since there is no enzyme to convert the rice to anything fermentable, it only adds flavor but is not itself fermented. The recipes I've seen for sake don't include sugar because it comes from the rice after conversion (done by the koji). I don't say this to start an argument, but to state my understanding of sake. Maybe I'm wrong and I know there are other experts out there than can expound so we all can make sake that doesn't suck. Mine sucked and I have lots of it, so anyone interested, come and get it...
No, the recipe at the start of this thread is not sake. It's essentially a country wine flavored with raisins and rice. I'm sorry to hear that you consider your first couple attempts at making sake such failures. For what it's worth, what you made would probably be considered a darn good makgeolli by most Koreans.

If you would like to make another attempt at sake, perhaps the link in my sig may be of some help. It's probably a considerably more involved and complex process than your last couple attempts, but it's also essentially the scaled-down home version of exactly what professional sake brewers do. I do try to keep it simple and focus on the "how," but being an experienced homebrewer you will probably have questions about the "why" for many of the steps and techniques in my guide. I'm always available via e-mail and frequently MSN Messenger to answer questions, so feel free to contact me with them. :mug:
 
So, I've decided that one thing I want to do before I shuffle off this mortal-coil is to brew beer. Well, I've done that for better or worse. Now, I want to branch out a bit. Can I do sake with my normal beer equipment?
 
Want my thoughts? Okay, here you go. =)


No, koji is always referred to as koji. Only Korean nuruk is ever labelled as "enzyme" for the English speaking market.


Please don't take this the wrong way, but you didn't make sake. By using nuruk (the Korean "enzyme") to convert the rice, what you actually made was makgeolli. If by "nasty" you really mean sour, that's just how makgeolli is. In its homemade state it's generally considered a rustic farmhouse victual and is generally sweetened up with sugar to taste by the imbiber right before consumption.

Nuruk is very different from koji. The former is made mostly from cracked wheat and wheat flour under conditions that are nowhere near as controlled as those under which koji is made. While aspergillus oryzae is certainly present in nuruk, it is not the pure saturated monoculture that koji is. It's the presence of other wild yeasts and bacteria that contributes to the signature sour flavor of makgeolli. Also, sake yeast is always added to the starter step (shubo or moto) of sake brewing, whereas nuruk is the sole source of yeast for a makgeolli fermentation.


No, the recipe at the start of this thread is not sake. It's essentially a country wine flavored with raisins and rice. I'm sorry to hear that you consider your first couple attempts at making sake such failures. For what it's worth, what you made would probably be considered a darn good makgeolli by most Koreans.

If you would like to make another attempt at sake, perhaps the link in my sig may be of some help. It's probably a considerably more involved and complex process than your last couple attempts, but it's also essentially the scaled-down home version of exactly what professional sake brewers do. I do try to keep it simple and focus on the "how," but being an experienced homebrewer you will probably have questions about the "why" for many of the steps and techniques in my guide. I'm always available via e-mail and frequently MSN Messenger to answer questions, so feel free to contact me with them. :mug:

This is all a great response. Mine does taste more sour than the stuff I had at a restaurant. Maybe it is good in terms of what it should be.

PM me an address and I'll ship you some for an official opinion... :tank:
 
Ummm, what was the purpose of the raisins??

Sorry for being so late, for some reason the forum didn't e-mail me about a topic reply.

In this recipe, the raisins supply yeast nutrients, some flavor, color, and trace amounts of fermentable sugars.

Recipes like this one are the result of early homebrewers attempting to figure out how to make sake on their own in an environment where no information about the brewing process used by professional sake brewers was available to homebrewers. They just didn't share that information with the general public, or American homebrewers didn't know who to ask to get it. Either way, homebrewers are nothing if not resourceful, and their attempts at trying to figure it out on their own resulted in recipes like the one at the beginning of this thread. You can certainly produce something alcoholic by following those instructions, it might even taste decent, but it's not sake.

In a proper sake recipe, you will find no raisins or any other kind of fruit whatsoever. Like beer, there are only four ingredients: water, rice, koji, yeast. That's it.
 
Using the Taylor Made guide I've grown up my spores into a healthy bloom, onto the fermentation.
 
Hi Taylor,

I wonder if you can answer a question for me. I am about 6 days into primary fermentation (following your recipe/instructions). I gave up on the ice packs in the water-filled rubbermade bin and cleared out my fridge and put the bucket in there. I have it on its warmest setting and it's at 40-42 degrees. Am I better at such a temperature or at mid 50s changing ice packs (and risking funky off-flavors)? I am afraid of the yeast going dormant at such a cold temp. Can you offer any words of advice?

Thanks,
Rich.
 
I don't really know exactly how low the temperature can go before the yeast go dormant, but in general I recommend that you don't go below 45ºF. Fermentation usually generates enough heat to keep the moromi mass two to three degrees above the ambient temperature inside my fermentation fridge, so your fermentation might proceed okay (if a little sluggishly) in your fridge.

It's a judgment call, though. If you find that your fermentation does stop, then I'm wrong and you'll need to find some way to warm the moromi up. =) My best recommendation is to just spend the money on a thermostat for your fridge so you can keep it at a higher temperature than the internal one allows. Yes, it's kind of spendy, but that's the best way to do it.
 
I am hijacking but only to give props to Mr. Taylor. His site ans his assistance helped me make some pretty damned good sake. It is clearing now and cannot wait to taste it (again):ban:
 

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