Want to brew a good pilsner - decoction mash?

I want to brew a good pilsner. I went to Bull & Bush brew pub in Denver this weekend and loved their pilsner. It was light colored, almost BMC in color, but had a ton of flavor. I've never really had a good pilsner before this.

I also want to experiment with doing a decoction mash. My goal is to brew a pilsner that is easy to drink, clean, but has some good flavor.

I'd like to use a good dry yeast if possible but i'll make a starter and using some liquid yeast if necessary - suggestions?

I think the recipe should be straight forward - mostly pilsner malt with a little bit of crystal.

I guess most of my questions are in the mash. I have a 10 gal igloo cooler with a stainless braid. Should I do a double or triple decoction? I don’t want a dark beer so should I just do a double decoction, or should I do a triple but keep the boils for a shorter period of time. Does anyone have a good mash schedule with temps, times, and decoction amounts i could follow? I’m in Colorado so water boils at 200 degrees not 212 – so I’ll have to account for this when doing the math for the decoction.

Any help would be great. As I plan this brew out in the next week or so I’ll post what I learn.

Thanks!

You're right with your grain bill. All pilsner malt with a little bit of Cara-pils would be great. In fact, you don't even need the Cara-pils. I wouldn't use any other type of caramel/crystal. You're looking for malty flavors and a decoction with pilsner malt will provide that. Frankly, you could even skip the decoction and still get lots of flavor. One of the things that makes BMC so flavorless (aside from being like 12 IBUs) is the addition of adjuncts (rice, corn)... not to mention the filtering.

Not to discourage you from decoctions. I do them frequently. You want to be careful with temps though. Assuming you're getting the standard German pilsner malt available to homebrewers (Weyermann, Best Malz, etc.), you probably don't need a protein rest and it could hurt head retention to do one. I've been using Best Malz (and have the malt analysis) and because the soluble nitrogen ratio (Kolbach Index) is around 41-42, I mash in for a "protein/saccharification" rest in the low 130s, then decoct up to the mid 150s. The resulting beer has very good head retention.

So, I would recommend a single decoction (or double if you need it to decoct up to mash-out) on the following schedule:

Strike in to mash temp. of 134F. Wait 5 minutes. Pull (thick) decoction. Heat to 156F, rest for 10 min. Heat to boiling. Boil for 5 min. Return decoction to mash for rest at 156F for 20 min.

Then you can decoct up again (the decoction can go straight to boiling) to mash-out temps with a thin decoction.

Adjust your temps a little if you need to for volumes. If you expect good attenuation, you can raise the upper temp to 158F. I just let Beersmith calculate the decoction volumes for me and it's never let me down. Also, watch Kaiser's decoction videos and keep your water-to-grain ratio at least between 1.75 to 2.0 qts. per pound. For yeast, any of the German lager or Bohemian Lager yeasts will do great. I usually use White Labs WLP 830. However, there is a dry strain similar or equal to this now available to homebrewers by Fermentis- Saflager W-34/70. I haven't tried it yet, but plan to in the near future. Good luck!

thanks for the detailed decoction description Mensch! Useful info for me to file in the brain for when I try one. I tend to just do a single infusion for Pilsners because the malt is so modified and I agree with you that there is a danger of losing head otherwise.

OP, I think there are a couple issues related to Pilsners other than mash method to consider. One is water. I am no water chemist so I cannot offer too much helpful advice here but I do know that with such a light grain bill you will get less acidification (correct word?) than from other styles.

The other is ferment temp. Are you planning to lager this? If you have the capability, cool, if not WL makes a San Francisco lager yeast that works from 55-65 degrees. This is great for me since my cellar temp is high 50's but I have no lager fridge.

great stuff thanks a bunch. I think I'll do exactly what you say here:


"Strike in to mash temp. of 134F. Wait 5 minutes. Pull (thick) decoction. Heat to 156F, rest for 10 min. Heat to boiling. Boil for 5 min. Return decoction to mash for rest at 156F for 20 min."

with heating this decoction slowly how long does this mash usually take?

after watching the Kaiser's videos this seems like the way to go with the modified malts available.

Designing Great Beers Says of the NHC Second Round Pilseners
6 are Pils/2-row +caraPils
6 are Pils/2-row + crysal + other
...

Why do you say avoid the crysal?

So for a recipe i'm thinking something like:

9 lbs pilsener malt
.5 lbs of crystal or CaraPils

hops - either Saaz or Hallertau or a mix
1.5 oz @ 60
.5 oz @ 5 min
1 oz dry

pcrawford said:

with heating this decoction slowly how long does this mash usually take?

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The mash will usually sit at 134°F for 45 minutes to an hour, possibly longer depending on how slow you heat the decoction. Mine usually take about 45 minutes. So, from mash-in and not including mash-out, the mash will take a little over an hour, maybe 90 minutes tops.

pcrawford said:

Designing Great Beers Says of the NHC Second Round Pilseners
6 are Pils/2-row +caraPils
6 are Pils/2-row + crysal + other
...

Why do you say avoid the crysal?

Click to expand...

I just don't think it will do anything positive for the beer. It will add a sweetness that may be overbearing. A decocted pilsner malt will provide plenty of dextrin-rich, malty sweetness. And I love Designing Great Beers, but if I want to do something to style, I take the "NHC" information from that book with a grain of salt. I'm not saying the NHC recipes aren't good beer, I'm just saying the commercial/historic information seems to take precidence as far as brewing to style. So, historically/traditionally, Pilsner beer is really just pilsner malt. I'd say for a residual body/dextrin/malty sweetness, you could add that Cara-pils, but since you're decocting, you really don't need it... and it could cause a loss in attenuation... and good attenuation is a trademark of Pilsners.

pcrawford said:

So for a recipe i'm thinking something like:

9 lbs pilsener malt
.5 lbs of crystal or CaraPils

hops - either Saaz or Hallertau or a mix
1.5 oz @ 60
.5 oz @ 5 min
1 oz dry

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As far as hops go, most of my experience is with brewing Helles (Pilsner's beautiful cousin), but your hop-types seem fine. As long as you're getting the proper IBUs, you should be fine. Although, I would double-check the schedule. My gut feeling is that you want more bittering/flavor and less aroma. And dry-hopping might be over-the-top for aroma in a Pilsner. At minimum, I think you want a 60 min and a 30 min addition, maybe some Saaz at the end for aroma. But I could be wrong on that, I'm just suggesting you get a second opinion. Don't forget to boil for 90 minutes (pilsner malt = DMS).

menschmaschine said:

Pilsner beer is really just pilsner malt.

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This is what I thought as well, but when reading BYO's "150 Classic Clone recipes", their version of Pilsner Urquell (what some might consider the benchmark of Pilsners) has a pound of Vienna, half a pound of Munich, and half a pound of Cara Pils. What the heck are they talking about? Are they trying to replicate flavors that the brewery develops with certain procedures not reproducible via home brewing techniques? They do call for a decoction and soft water, but I can't get over their grain bill.
I want to brew a Pilsner Urquell clone next (very soon in fact), but I don't even know who to believe as far as a recipe. I'm thinking about keeping it as simple as possible, but I'm afraid I might spend months working on what amounts to a pretty boring beer.

Hokie said:

This is what I thought as well, but when reading BYO's "150 Classic Clone recipes", their version of Pilsner Urquell (what some might consider the benchmark of Pilsners) has a pound of Vienna, half a pound of Munich, and half a pound of Cara Pils. What the heck are they talking about? Are they trying to replicate flavors that the brewery develops with certain procedures not reproducible via home brewing techniques? They do call for a decoction and soft water, but I can't get over their grain bill.
I want to brew a Pilsner Urquell clone next (very soon in fact), but I don't even know who to believe as far as a recipe. I'm thinking about keeping it as simple as possible, but I'm afraid I might spend months working on what amounts to a pretty boring beer.

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Oh yeah, Urquell is THEE Pilsner. I don't have BYO's 150 Classic... but I think you're right on your assumption about replicating flavors with additional grains vs. brewing technique. Look at Duvel, for example. I've seen clone recipes with pear extract, multiple grains, etc., but Moortgat's fermentables are just pilsner malt and dextrose (and no pears!). I would think BYO's clone recipe for Urquell would be a bit darker than the original... with the Vienna, Munich, and a decoction. And the Cara-pils might reduce attenuation for some homebrewers, unless all other conditions were ideal... oxygenation, yeast pitch rate, etc.

There are definitely some beers out there worth cloning. (I mean, who doesn't like Hobgoblin?) And many of the clone recipes will make GREAT beer. But I usually like to take a little more ownership... make it MY beer. Maybe it will be reminiscent of a specific beer, but it will be as good as, if not better than, a "clone" recipe and will be a good representation of the style. Many of the world's most reknowned beers are made with simple grain bills and simple hop schedules. So, using only one or two grains doesn't make a beer boring at all. Depending on brewing/fermenting techniques, it could be incredibly complex.

What are the benefits of doing 1 vs. 2 its basically the difference between doing my first rest as an acid rest or a protein/scarification rest.

1. an acid rest in the high 90's then decoction up to a scarification rest in the mid 150's then a decoction to mash out

or

2. a protein/scarification rest in the mid 130's then a decoction up to a scarification rest in the mid 150's then a decoction to mash out


this thread has been very insightful so far. thanks!

menschmaschine said:

Don't forget to boil for 90 minutes (pilsner malt = DMS).

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I'm brewing an extract version. Would I also boil 90 minutes for a Pilsen DME? I'm afraid it would affect the color.

If you really want to control the decoction this malt is the one to use as it is less modified German malt. The price is less too.

WBC said:

If you really want to control the decoction this malt is the one to use as it is less modified German malt. The price is less too.

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Interesting... too bad the malt analysis is a dead link. This would be great for decoctions and step mashes.

I'll try this one again - anyone know?

What are the benefits of doing 1 vs. 2 its basically the difference between doing my first rest as an acid rest or a protein/scarification rest.

1. an acid rest in the high 90's then decoction up to a scarification rest in the mid 150's then a decoction to mash out

or

2. a protein/scarification rest in the mid 130's then a decoction up to a scarification rest in the mid 150's then a decoction to mash out


this thread has been very insightful so far. thanks!

pcrawford said:

I'll try this one again - anyone know?

What are the benefits of doing 1 vs. 2 its basically the difference between doing my first rest as an acid rest or a protein/scarification rest.

1. an acid rest in the high 90's then decoction up to a scarification rest in the mid 150's then a decoction to mash out

or

2. a protein/scarification rest in the mid 130's then a decoction up to a scarification rest in the mid 150's then a decoction to mash out


this thread has been very insightful so far. thanks!

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I wouldn't do number 1. You'll get a disproportionate amount of dextrins in the wort. Plus you'd have to decoct a sh!tload to get the temperature up to the mid-150s from the high 90s. However, that isn't to say you shouldn't do an acid rest. If your water pH is mid to high, you will likely get better extraction efficiency by facilitating a good mash pH. If you do want to do an acid rest, I would start it with a thicker mash, then dilute with boiling water up to your target water-to-grain ratio and to reach the next temp you want (134°F). Then decoct up to the mid-150s rest, then to mash-out.

menschmaschine said:

Interesting... too bad the malt analysis is a dead link. This would be great for decoctions and step mashes.

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Contact Morebeer and they should be able to fix that link or at least give it to you by email.

Very soft water is crucial in making a good pilsner. Find out what your water chemistry is. Either call your water Co or send a sample to Ward labs. Most waters have too much CO3. This will make your pils harsh. Lots of great reading at these sites.
Homebrewing and water quality
Water And Homebrewing

Pilsner water is the hardest water to duplicate. It is easiest to use distilled or RO water then add a little salt/Ca/etc.

here's a link where some of us discuss water profile
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/water-profile-how-fix-88393/

I ordered 10 pounds of that Less-Modified Pils and planed on doing a three step docoction with steps at ~104, ~122, and ~153.

A mash rest at 104 °F or 40 °C activates glucanase , which breaks down gummy beta-glucans in the mash, making the sugars flow out more freely later in the process. A mash rest from 120°F to 130 °F (49°C to 55°C) activates various proteinases, which break down proteins that might otherwise cause the beer to be hazy. But care is of the essence since the head on beer is also composed primarily of proteins, so too aggressive a protein rest can result in a beer that cannot hold a head. This rest is generally used only with undermodified (i.e. undermalted) malts which are decreasingly popular in Germany...or non-malted grains such as corn and rice, which are widely used in North American beers. Finally, a mash rest temperature of 149 to 160 °F (65 to 71 °C) ...

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Brewing Beer Process Yeast Lager Rest Sugars Wort Mash
It's not really a brewing site. Is it correct?

Edit, I just listened to John Palmer on a Brewing Network pod cast. I gather the acid rest is very important as well as a high water to grain ratio. The brew they did before the show did not have a protein rest in the mash but may have done someting like it on the decoctions in the pot (they talked about temperature rests in the brew pot but not very specifically) The fist decoction stepped it up to ~142. The next decoction was to the high 150s. It was hard to get much from the show. Too much drunken chit chat with too few real numbers.

balto charlie said:

Very soft water is crucial in making a good pilsner. Find out what your water chemistry is. Either call your water Co or send a sample to Ward labs. Most waters have too much CO3. This will make your pils harsh. Lots of great reading at these sites.
Homebrewing and water quality
Water And Homebrewing

Pilsner water is the hardest water to duplicate. It is easiest to use distilled or RO water then add a little salt/Ca/etc.

here's a link where some of us discuss water profile
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/water-profile-how-fix-88393/

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Soft water is critical to a Bo pils...I make German pils since harder water is perfect for them. Not all pils are the same.

I did an experiment to determine if decoctions were worth the effort. The results I got showed me that a single decoction with a 30 min. boil might not be worth it. Results are at....http://beertown.org/events/hbc/presentations/DennyConn.pdf starting at pg. 25.

Nice work Denny.

Thank you!

Denny said:

Soft water is critical to a Bo pils...I make German pils since harder water is perfect for them. Not all pils are the same.

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Really!!! I was basing my info on John Palmer's chapter.
How to Brew - By John Palmer - Balancing the Malts and Minerals
Water is the hardest subject to get folks to talk about. I admit that I have little experience with water profile but am trying to improve my knowledge. If you have any charts describing water profiles and beer styles I would appreciate it. Thanks

menschmaschine said:

So, I would recommend a single decoction (or double if you need it to decoct up to mash-out) on the following schedule:

Strike in to mash temp. of 134F. Wait 5 minutes. Pull (thick) decoction. Heat to 156F, rest for 10 min. Heat to boiling. Boil for 5 min. Return decoction to mash for rest at 156F for 20 min.

Then you can decoct up again (the decoction can go straight to boiling) to mash-out temps with a thin decoction.

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I finally got around to brewing this on Sunday. It was a good learning experience and not everything went smoothly. I doughed in at the proper temp about 135. Then pulled the thick decoction and started heating it. Before i knew it the decoction was at 160 degrees so I quickly threw in some cold water and a few ice cubes. I got it back down to 156 and held it there for just under 20 min. Then i heated the decoction up to boiling, attemped to scrape the little bit of foam off and added it back to the mash.

From there the mash temp only got to 147 degrees! I thought I had pulled more then 1/3 of the mash to decoct but i guess not. So I pulled another mini decoction to get the temp up and was still not there. 3 mini decoctions later and i was finally at 155 degrees. Good enough I finished the mash and since I was so sick of decocting I just did my normal batch sparge to mash out temps.

After a 90 min boil and 3.5 oz of Saaz hops spread throughout (39 IBUs) I cooled and pitched 1 vial of WLP800. I wish I had made a starter but didn't have the time. I had a post boil OG of 1.052 so and it tasted great. So I hope this beer comes out. I'll have to try another decoction and pitch it on top of my yeast trub from this beer.

It was fun, thanks for the advice I'll let you know how it turns out.

My Reciepe:

9.5 lbs German Pils Malt
0.5 lb Carapills

1oz Saaz @ 85 min
.75oz Saaz @ 30
.75oz Saaz @ 5
1oz Saaz @ 0 min

WLP800 Yeast

pcrawford said:

hops - either Saaz or Hallertau or a mix
1.5 oz @ 60
.5 oz @ 5 min
1 oz dry

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Just an opinion here, but I wouldn't dry hop. I dry hopped my all-grain pilsner last year with 1 oz. Saaz and regretted it. I'm a hop-head and it was still too much for me. Took away from the other pilsner-esque attributes that would have shone through more without the dry hopping.

This here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing#Hochkurz_Double_Decoction would be a great option if you want to decoct a Pilsner and are using European malts like Weyermann. These days I even skip the protein rest altogether. The decoctions are done from the maltose to the dextrinization rest and than to mash-out. This is by far my most favorite double decoction these days.

The decoction from the acid rest to a saccharification rest allows you to decoct almost all of the grain and if you choose the rest temp low enough you are able to get a very fermentable wort b/c you can even get strong limit dextrinase activity. This is the kind of mash I show in the videos.

To avoid coming up short on the decoction volume and missing your temp I suggest that you always pull 10-20% more than calculated and return the mash in stages. Once the temp is hit let the rest cool down and add later.

There was no need to bring the rest temp of the decoction down. I generally hold my decoction rests at 160 – 164F. It converts much faster there. Maltose can be produces later. At this point you only seek to liquefy the mash.


When I made a single v.s. double decoction Maibock last year I ended up preferring the double decocted version. It did seem to have more “complexity”. While this doesn’t prove anything it is just another data point. In the end every brewer has to see for him/herself if decoction is worth their time. It may also not work in favor of every beer style. A German Pils for example should be delicate and an intensive mash like a decoction may work against this delicate balance. But a Dunkel or a Bock on the other hand may benefit greatly from that type of mashing.

Kai

pcrawford said:

I'll try this one again - anyone know?

What are the benefits of doing 1 vs. 2 its basically the difference between doing my first rest as an acid rest or a protein/scarification rest.

1. an acid rest in the high 90's then decoction up to a scarification rest in the mid 150's then a decoction to mash out

or

2. a protein/scarification rest in the mid 130's then a decoction up to a scarification rest in the mid 150's then a decoction to mash out


this thread has been very insightful so far. thanks!

Click to expand...

An acid rest is done to adjust the pH of your water./ Do you need to do that? If I need to adjust, I just use lactic acid since it's much easier and more reliable. You may not need a protein rest, depending on the maly you use.

Ooops! Double post.

When I do the large double decoction and start at this “acid rest” I don’t do this b/c of the fact that it can lower the pH. I simply dough in there b/c I don’t have to worry about the main mash sitting at this temp for an hour or more and b/c I want a low starting point so I can decoct about 60% of the mash.

It’s also a nice rest at which you cab take your time w/c adjusting the pH through acid or salt additions.

Kai

pcrawford said:

I cooled and pitched 1 vial of WLP800. I wish I had made a starter but didn't have the time. I had a post boil OG of 1.052 so and it tasted great.

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I duno, I just feel like without a starter for a lager yeast, what's the point of wasting your time with a decoction? You've basically just pitched 1/4 of the yeast cells you should have, and this should have a big effect on the final quality of the beer.

Kaiser said:

When I do the large double decoction and start at this “acid rest” I don’t do this b/c of the fact that it can lower the pH. I simply dough in there b/c I don’t have to worry about the main mash sitting at this temp for an hour or more and b/c I want a low starting point so I can decoct about 60% of the mash.

It’s also a nice rest at which you cab take your time w/c adjusting the pH through acid or salt additions.

Kai

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So, for you it's just a mash in point, not an acid rest?

BTW, I brewed a maibock last weekend following the advice on your website. Thanks! If I have time, Im also planning on using your advice for a doppelbock.

Kaiser said:

These days I even skip the protein rest altogether. The decoctions are done from the maltose to the dextrinization rest and than to mash-out.

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I've thought about this, but with such a small temperature increase from the maltose rest to the dextrin rest (~6 or 7°C?), do you pull enough of a decoction to really make a noticeable difference (vs. single infusion or just a step-mash with those same temp. rests)?

Denny said:

So, for you it's just a mash in point, not an acid rest?

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No just a convenient rest.

BTW, I brewed a maibock last weekend following the advice on your website. Thanks! If I have time, Im also planning on using your advice for a doppelbock.

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Great, let me know how it turns out. That reminds me that I soon have to get started on mine as well.

Mensch, If you mash thick enough you can get a decent amount of grain into the decoction. Note that this decoction is done closer to the boiling point which means that more volume is needed anyway to get the same temperature jump compared to a lower temp rest.

Kai

Kai

Kaiser said:

Note that this decoction is done closer to the boiling point which means that more volume is needed anyway to get the same temperature jump compared to a lower temp rest.

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Good point. Thanks.

Kaiser said:

Great, let me know how it turns out. That reminds me that I soon have to get started on mine as well.

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I used the S-189 dry lager yeast on it. Have you tried that one?

Denny said:

I used the S-189 dry lager yeast on it. Have you tried that one?

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No, I haven’t used many dry yeasts yet. Only w34/70 once and that was an emergency. I maintain my own yeast bank and the #1 yeast for me is the WY2206 which has made some of my best beers yet. I briefly tried WLP800 but found that it throws more sulphur. I hope to try and get the WLP830 soon. This I believe might be a better choice for a Pilsner (at least the German variety) as the WY2206 has a hard time reaching an attenuation close to the limit of attenuation.

Kai

2206 is my go to lager yeast, too. I just had a chance to brew and my 2206 starter wasn't ready so I broke out the S-189. What kind of FG are you looking for on your pils that 2206 has a hard time reaching?

Hope I'm not hijacking too much but this is at least somewhat on-topic.

After many years away I'm gonna brew a Pils as my second batch. I got 6.5# German Pils, 1# Vienna, and 1# Acidulated...and some Saaz of course. I planned on using mostly Distilled water for the mash but I was still concerned about pH so that's why I got the acidulated. I didn't wanna do a decoction on my second batch after so many years away so I was planning a step-infusion with an acid rest.

Does this sound OK so far? Is acidulated OK or are there 'issues' with it? How much for a 5 gal batch?

Should I add anything to the distilled water? Or maybe mix the distilled with some spring water?

Kaiser said:

Only w34/70 once and that was an emergency.

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What did you think of that yeast? I usually use WLP-830, but have been thinking of trying this. I've read things that imply they're the same strain.

Denny said:

What kind of FG are you looking for on your pils that 2206 has a hard time reaching?

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2.5 Plato for exaple if the fast ferment test stopped at 2.3 -2.4 Plato. This means that there are very little fermentable sugars left in the beer. Given that the fast ferment test doesn't have the popularity I'd like it to have , it becomes difficult to compare these numbers. I also rack the beer to a secondary keg before it is fully done and expect to get carbonation while the yeast is finishing the beer. But sometimes that racking happens to early which may have something to do with that. But 2206 is a very good flocculator which may also be a factor in this.

Mensch, since I mixed yeasts in that case (added the dry yeast b/c the original yeast didn't start as fast as I wanted it to) I can't tell what the dry yeast by itself would have done. I heard the same about it WLP830 and w34/70 being the same. Its very likely but I also heard the same about WLP830 and WY2112 and many brewers swear that they taste different.

SpanishCastleAle, I don't think that R/O or distilled water is good for brewing any style. While Pilsen water is very close to R/O water they may actyally add salts like Gypsum to the water. You need at least some calcium in the water and a bit more sulphate for the bitterness. My eperience with only pilsner malt is that a residual alkalinity of about -20 ppm HCO3- will give you a cold sample mash pH of about 5.5. But you are adding some vienna, which is darker and will lower the mash pH a little. My last Pilsner was brewed with 97% Pilsner malt, 3% acid malt and water with a residual alkalinity of -20 ppm HCO3. The mash pH was around 5.4.

So, I'd add at least gypsum to get to about 60-70 ppm Ca which should bring your RA into a range of -40..-20 ppm HCO3. You can use John Palmer's residual alkalinity spread sheet to figure out the exact amounts.

Kai

Thanks Kai. That's what I was thinking of doing...using mostly distilled with gypsum and a little spring water. I do have some Gypsum and Calcium Chloride (or Chalk...one of those)...but def Gypsum. Of course they're like 8 years old but whatever.

Kaiser said:

So, I'd add at least gypsum to get to about 60-70 ppm Ca which should bring your RA into a range of -40..-20 ppm HCO3. You can use John Palmer's residual alkalinity spread sheet to figure out the exact amounts.

Kai

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So, I followed Kaisers directions and I am building Pilsner water from Palmers spreadsheets and I came up with the following for 6 gallons of distilled water. Does this look good to you?
CA 62, mg 4, alk 8, na 4, cl 64, sulfate 81, ra-39,chloride/sulfate balanced

This using the following additions: 2.6 g gypsum, 3 g calcium chloride, 1 g Epsom salt, and .3 g baking soda.

Does this look like good Bohemian pilsner water from distilled.

Thanks,
Tom