Brewstand input?

I'm in the very early stages of planning my brewstand/brewery. It's still in the "hopes and dreams" stage actually. Since I have very little mechanical ability and NO experience with ventilation requirements, I need some input from you guys.

Here's what I'm thinking- I have a small first floor laundry room. There is an exterior door there that opens, and it's only a one-story part of the house. There is also a door to close it off from the house. I was thinking that maybe ventilation could be acheived with a range hood (probably more expensive, since there is an attic above), or the door open, or building the vents into that exterior door which is never, ever used.

I was also thinking about a three tier, so I wouldn't have to use pumps since I'm no mechanical genius. Also, perhaps an electric HLT, so the co2 possibility is minimized. Now, the three tier couldn't be too terribly high, since I have 9 foot ceilings, but it could definitely be high enough I would think. I want wheels, to be able to move it into place when needed and out of the way when not, since the washer and dryer have to stay. The other thought is a two tier, with one pump. For the tier with the MLT, I would want a tippy dump since I'm a weakling.

So, where do I start? Do I find out about ventilation requirements? What do I do to get an electric HLT prebuilt? I don't have a 220/240 in my home currently, so I'd have to hire someone for that.

Is there a "brewery for dummies" place I can find this out? That's what I need.

Yoop, I have a excel sheet that I have been passing around for quite a while. I don't have a build designed for exactly what you want, but it does have a ton of info and sources for parts. PM me your email and I will send it over.

Do you want to design a dream brewery and build toward it, or do you have a budget in mind that you have to stay within?

Maybe I can spend a lunch hour or two working on something for you...

:EDIT: Room dimensions and location of doors would be great.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Yoop, I have a excel sheet that I have been passing around for quite a while. I don't have a build designed for exactly what you want, but it does have a ton of info and sources for parts. PM me your email and I will send it over.

Do you want to design a dream brewery and build toward it, or do you have a budget in mind that you have to stay within?

Maybe I can spend a lunch hour or two working on something for you...

:EDIT: Room dimensions and location of doors would be great.

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Oh, that's be great. I want to combine the "dream brewery" with a realistic budget. So, it'll be compromised all the way. I want something that works well, and efficiently, without killing my middle aged back, and to make 10 gallon batches.

I will have to do it in bits and pieces, since in February, my "allowance" will drop to $600 a month! (That's my mad money, that I don't have to account for for any reason.)

I'll measure up the room, but it's very small!

YooperBrew said:

I will have to do it in bits and pieces, since in February, my "allowance" will drop to $600 a month! (That's my mad money, that I don't have to account for for any reason.)

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WHAT!? I am envious. I get about $100 a month and I have to pay for clothes, bars, haircuts, and any other fun stuff I want out of it. Can you say 5 years to build my brewery???

1. So what price point should I shoot for on the build?
2. Is stainless important? Plastic?
3. Do you want to use coolers, stainless kettles, or aluminum? What do you want for what vessels?
4. Do you want to go all electric? Propane, LP Propane, Nat gas? Mix?
5. Have you considered a Brutus 20 style system?
6. Do you want any automation?
7. HERMS, RIMS, DFMLT, DICHES?
8. Are you happy with your current fermentation end of things?

Theree are more questions but those are some good starters

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

WHAT!? I am envious. I get about $100 a month and I have to pay for clothes, bars, haircuts, and any other fun stuff I want out of it. Can you say 5 years to build my brewery???

1. So what price point should I shoot for on the build?
2. Is stainless important? Plastic?
3. Do you want to use coolers, stainless kettles, or aluminum? What do you want for what vessels?
4. Do you want to go all electric? Propane, LP Propane, Nat gas? Mix?
5. Have you considered a Brutus 20 style system?
6. Do you want any automation?
7. HERMS, RIMS, DFMLT, DICHES?
8. Are you happy with your current fermentation end of things?

Theree are more questions but those are some good starters

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Well, I don't know how much the stand would cost, but I'd, say, build the stand first. It would still be used, even with what I have now. Then, hire the electrician for the electric HLT and buy the electric HLT premade. I'd like to stay under $1500, if I could.

Stainless is not important, but I don't want more plastic than the cooler MLT I already have. Aluminum would be fine, but I sure do like the looks of the Blichmann 15 gallon brewkettles.

I'm not smart enough to have automation, beyond during on the "on" switch for the MLT.

I was thinking HERMS, but only because I just barely understand it. I'd be happy to use something else, if it made sense to my simple mind. I'll have to look into Brutus 20.

I was thinking all electric would be more ideal, since the ventilation issue could be fixed by simply opening the door, and deal with the moisture problem if I have too. Right now, I have a keggle that isn't drilled, just without a lid.

A tippy dump IS important, since I can barely lift a full MLT with wet grains.

yeah, I wouldnt vent into the attic. That is the last place you want moisture problems, you'll also be send co2 through out the house. It needs to vent outside.

Im partial to electric. Since you are looking at setting it up in the laundry room, what is the service to the dryer rated at? If you don't know look in the breaker panel for for the dryer breaker and write down it's rating. Im guessing 30 amp.

What size batches do you want to be able to do?

I know an electrician that would help you out for a few beers!

If you go with an electric HLT, it would make sense to use a cooler for the heat efficiency. I suppose if you went with a metal vessel, it could be wrapped with just about any kind of insulation. It's hard to believe you don't have 240v service but if you really don't, that's going to be a pricey brewstand. I've gotten quotes of over $2000 just to go from 100a to 200a. I know

YooperBrew said:

I don't have a 220/240 in my home currently, so I'd have to hire someone for that.

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You just don't have any electric dryer/oven/water heater outlets, right? You probably have a 220/240v service. It should just be a matter of running wire and terminations if you have the proper service.

Otherwise, not cheap...

Here is a Brutus 20 like idea with a couple of my personal twists.... It is all electric with a built in HERMS and RIMS. The HERMS doubles as the chiller.

Anyway, here you go:

Parts list (I updated this for you since I sent you my sheet. When I design some other stuff for you I will forward it all over.) Total $2,304.08 (You could easily cut a lot of costs....) It has full stainless with tri-clover QD's and Blingmanns... yeah, you could cut some costs.





This does not show the RIMS tube, see sawdust guys "for dummies" thread on the RIMS build. It is exactly that one I have listed here.

Here is how it works:

Brewery set-up and ready:


Add liquor and grains:


Dough in:


Circulate through HERMS to maintain mash temp (shown) or though RIMS for step mashes (not shown):


Sparge. This is a circulation sparge where you run all the liquid through the grain then pump out into the BK. Comes out to around 75-80% efficiency for most people:


Boil is standard:


Chilling is done by running water through the HERMS coil. I would use tap water to knock down the initial temp then ice to rapidly chill down the rest of the way:


I think this is a slick system. It is run by two PIDs which are easy to wire up and we could walk you through it. Pumps are really easy IMO and you could handle them.

I will design a more traditional system int he next couple of days, I just wanted to show you this one.

You could build a tippy dump if you wanted, but it might be easier to just use a shop vac...

lschiavo said:

I know an electrician that would help you out for a few beers!

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Slaps forehead! OMG- I forgot about you! Well, not as a brewing buddy, but that as an EE with an electric company, you might be a good resource!!!!! Duh! (By the way, brewing tomorrow during the day if you wanna come over- two batch day.)

So, if BK can help design, and you can help with the electrical/venting ideas, I have two experts right there!

At this point, I can pay you in yeast, grain, and hops and beer. If you start to charge more, we'll have to talk.

mmb said:

You just don't have any electric dryer/oven/water heater outlets, right? You probably have a 220/240v service. It should just be a matter of running wire and terminations if you have the proper service.

Otherwise, not cheap...

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Nah, I don't have it period. I have an old house, and I'm happy to have 100 amp service!

I'll see if lschiavo can take a look and actually tell me what I have. Pretty please, lschiavo?

YooperBrew said:

Nah, I don't have it period. I have an old house, and I'm happy to have 100 amp service!

I'll see if lschiavo can take a look and actually tell me what I have. Pretty please, lschiavo?

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We were going to look at your service the day I was over but we got distracted with brewing.

To not have a 240V service is very rare. I'm sure you are ok there.

Not sure about tomorrow, but I will stop by if I'm in the area.

I would actually really like to help with the build. Sounds like a lot of fun!

Wait... what?! You don't have 220v access? I don't think that is right. You don't have 200amp service, neither do I. But 220v is what is used for most power transmission (at least I thought so) and its just a matter of how you hook up the circuit (two hots or one hot). If I am wrong I would like to know. Learn something new everyday

CodeRage said:

yeah, I wouldnt vent into the attic. That is the last place you want moisture problems, you'll also be send co2 through out the house. It needs to vent outside.

Im partial to electric. Since you are looking at setting it up in the laundry room, what is the service to the dryer rated at? If you don't know look in the breaker panel for for the dryer breaker and write down it's rating. Im guessing 30 amp.

What size batches do you want to be able to do?

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I really like your system- but I really don't think I'm handy enough to figure it out/build it. Ideally, I'd like to do 10 gallon batches but I could live with 5 if I had to. I wouldn't mind an all electric system, with a two tier, and three vessels. (The MLT could remain a cooler, right?)

My house has all gas appliances, and not great electrical.

lschiavo said:

We were going to look at your service the day I was over but we got distracted with brewing.

To not have a 240V service is very rare. I'm sure you are ok there.

Not sure about tomorrow, but I will stop by if I'm in the area.

I would actually really like to help with the build. Sounds like a lot of fun!

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Well, I have no idea, really. I told you that I'm a simpleton when it comes to things like that.

By the way, since you're willing to help me, I take back all of those snarky comments I made about engineers. I was just jealous. Yeah, that's it! Jealous!

If you can stop by, that'd be great. I'll try to get brewing by 9 AM, and finished by 2 PM. Only one beer on tap right now, the oatmeal stout, but you're welcome to have a few!

Thanks for everybody's input! I'll see what I have, and then start from there. I really am a total noob here- I've never even seen a brewstand before so this is a real learning experience for me!

YooperBrew said:

I really like your system- but I really don't think I'm handy enough to figure it out/build it. Ideally, I'd like to do 10 gallon batches but I could live with 5 if I had to. I wouldn't mind an all electric system, with a two tier, and three vessels. (The MLT could remain a cooler, right?)

My house has all gas appliances, and not great electrical.

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Why thank you. It could be done with a lot less plumbing and electrical stuff but I wasn't suggesting you build one. You seem like a 3 vessel kind of lass to me The counter top version of the brutus 20 seems to be pretty popular and well documented should you decide to save a little room.

Is it the cost of the pumps or the actual wiring of the pumps that has you put off? Or perhaps the plumbing? If you wanted to do a RIMS or HERMS a pump is just about required.

There was a very nice, super compact three tier brewery that was put together not too long ago. Think they were calling it a tier and a half. Should I ever build another one, I may go that route. That could easily be adapted for an electric system. Yes you can keep the cooler too.

CodeRage said:

Why thank you. It could be done with a lot less plumbing and electrical stuff but I wasn't suggesting you build one. You seem like a 3 vessel kind of lass to me The counter top version of the brutus 20 seems to be pretty popular and well documented should you decide to save a little room.

Is it the cost of the pumps or the actual wiring of the pumps that has you put off? Or perhaps the plumbing? If you wanted to do a RIMS or HERMS a pump is just about required.

There was a very nice, super compact three tier brewery that was put together not too long ago. Think they were calling it a tier and a half. Should I ever build another one, I may go that route. That could easily be adapted for an electric system. Yes you can keep the cooler too.

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I don't really want a counter top system, a sculpture is fine with me. I like the idea of wheels and a "wheelbarrow" moving option. It's not the cost of the pumps- it's the plumbing and the operation. If I'm not smart enough to know how to plumb it, how am I going to prime it, or fix it if something goes wrong?!? But ideally, I would have a RIMS or HERMS.

Where can I see a tier and half? I was just looking at morebeer.com's site, and I love their sculpture with the tippy dump, and the HLT under the MLT. One pump may not intimidate me as much as two to start with!

You have 220 you just dont have an outlet wired in. I dont know about 3 tier set ups because you have to lift the water pretty high to get it in your hlt.
To bad your so far away I would love to give you a hand with the whole thing.
Let me know what I can do..If you have a drawing I could build it for you.

Pat

lehr said:

You have 220 you just dont have an outlet wired in. I dont know about 3 tier set ups because you have to lift the water pretty high to get it in your hlt.
To bad your so far away I would love to give you a hand with the whole thing.
Let me know what I can do..If you have a drawing I could build it for you.

Pat

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You have got to see Pat's (Lehr) system. If I were in Yooper's shoes I would take him up on it in a heartbeat. It's not only a brewery, it's a work of art. Take a look at it in his gallery.

Yoop, if you want to keep your cooler MLT, what are the dimensions so I can add it to the model and whatnot?

lehr said:

You have 220 you just dont have an outlet wired in. I dont know about 3 tier set ups because you have to lift the water pretty high to get it in your hlt.
To bad your so far away I would love to give you a hand with the whole thing.
Let me know what I can do..If you have a drawing I could build it for you.

Pat

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Thanks, Pat! When lschiavo stops over for a beer, I'll send him to the basement (with a beer in hand) to see what I've got, and how easy it would be to add. I wasn't planning on lifting the water- I was planning on using a food-safe RV hose from a faucet in the laundry room and using a sight gauge and thermometer for it. I learned about lifting hot water over my head this summer, when I "made" a sculpture involving a picnic table, my coffee table, and a milk crate. I won't make that mistake again!

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Yoop, if you want to keep your cooler MLT, what are the dimensions so I can add it to the model and whatnot?

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I'll check- I'm mashing in it right now. Just need to find a tape measure!

Right track? I just threw a Boilermaker in as the MLT, but that is easily changed.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Right track? I just threw a Boilermaker in as the MLT, but that is easily changed.

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OOOOH- I like that!

The cooler MLT is 16 inches in diameter (not including the handles), and 21 inches high.

That would require just one pump, and I think I am smart enough to figure out how to work it. (maybe).

I rarely do decoctions, but step mashing would be ok with either infusion via the pump, or via HERMS, right?

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Right track? .

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Way off! Yooper is hardly flat chested, and I think her hair is longer

YooperBrew said:

That would require just one pump, and I think I am smart enough to figure out how to work it. (maybe).

Click to expand...

You know how to setup a siphon. A pump will be child's play.

I personally do a lot of step mashing and decoctions. I think it is nice to have the flexibility....





Booya! I don't know what kind of burner you have now, but you could just use that in a slide drawer arrangement and have an awesome deco/step water option. Or if decos aren't your thing, for step mashes you could just heat water in the BK while you are mashing.

YooperBrew said:

Thanks, Pat! When lschiavo stops over for a beer, I'll send him to the basement (with a beer in hand) to see what I've got, and how easy it would be to add.

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Sorry, I won't be able to stop over today. Stuck at work I usually make it over your way once a week or so. I'll give you a call next time I am in the area.

How's the brew going? Watcha makin' today? We are going to brew a few batches tonite.

I think it would be cool to use the pump like Pico Brewing systems. That way, you will not have to worry about priming, and you can use 1 pump to do many things in your brewery.



:EDIT: As shown with all stainless parts and using you existing Mash tun, with tri-clover QD's, the cost of this system is $1,779.24. That doesn't count shipping or misc. wiring stuff for getting it hooked up to an outlet.

I used to brew in my laundry room for quite some time. In my case, I had 220 for the dryer and plugged in there. I had a shelf for the HLT, MLT sat on washer, and boil kettle sat outside. Simple, but worked.

Later I upgraded and was thinking of a tippy-dump system when I moved up to 10 gallon batch sizes. Instead, I found my shop vac to work just fine. I sucked the spent grain out, hosed out, and sucked again. Dumped shop vac in pile in yard.

Electric isn't bad at all, but without 220, it will be very high amperage, limited watts, and/or a lot of elements. That said, there is nothing wrong with loosing an igloo cooler as an electric HLT. The white liner and lid is HDPE which is just fine to 180 but starts to soften at 195 or so so you wouldn't want to boil in it.

An electic boil kettle can be made fairly easily but do your research first.

Lastly, before getting an electrician involved, consider getting a gas system well done. A plumber with gas experiance will have gas analyzers to detect CO, but in general, a clean flame is a healthy flame. Light blue, conical, with a white-yellow tip.

All said and done, consider an electric HLT and a gas boil. This way you can just open the door for your 60 or 90 minute boil.

lschiavo said:

Sorry, I won't be able to stop over today. Stuck at work I usually make it over your way once a week or so. I'll give you a call next time I am in the area.

How's the brew going? Watcha makin' today? We are going to brew a few batches tonite.

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I made a California common first, and now am finishing up the boil on an Irish draught. I had a stuck mash, then a stuck sparge due to my tubing disconnecting from the false bottom twice. My son was home, to help me lift that heavy MLT and put it back together. All of that caused some high efficiency for me- 86%, so I ended up adding water mid-boil and recalculating my IBUs, so I ended up with 6.25 gallons at the end. You missed a fun time!

BeerCrazy said:

All said and done, consider an electric HLT and a gas boil. This way you can just open the door for your 60 or 90 minute boil.

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That's what I keep going back to. I think it would be ok, and I'm comfortable with a propane burner. An all-electric would be awesome, too, though!

My husband is thinking all-electric just sounds safer. Not that I'm a danger around open flame................

I still like a tippy dump, even with a shop vac. It means no climbing up on a step ladder to clean the MLT. (I'm pretty short).

Good luck on your rig. It's an exciting thing to think about. I'm planning complete electric but am settling for Ehlt for immediate future (collecting parts) and propane boil for now. I'll have cooler HLT and MLT.

I am 5' 8.5" in real life and in Sketchup, just for height reference.



You are likely going to need a step stool for mixing your mash in any arrangement of a two tier or more. Us short folk are just at a disadvantage sometimes.

YooperBrew said:

That's what I keep going back to. I think it would be ok, and I'm comfortable with a propane burner. An all-electric would be awesome, too, though!

My husband is thinking all-electric just sounds safer. Not that I'm a danger around open flame................

I still like a tippy dump, even with a shop vac. It means no climbing up on a step ladder to clean the MLT. (I'm pretty short).

Click to expand...

Another thought... one of the guys in our local club leaves his (all stainless) gear on back porch under a cover he made. Kind of like a BBQ cover.

Consider a single tier as a major disadvantage to a two-tier is that they only use one pump. Having two pumps is an advantage when one bites the dust. Most brew pub rigs have two pumps although a batch can finish with one pump.

I'm inclined to either build a single or a three tier. I have both a two-tier and a three-tier right now, and while the two-tier is much more of a beer gadget, I use the three tier.

I'm developing two items that you might look into making. The first is a "non-flat spacer, machined to the inside of an igloo". This is a pre-req to a cooler system that doesn't leak (reliably). The other is a peristaltic pump head. These can double as a valve and are very clean. Problem is they are made very precise and therefore very expensive. One person on here has already made one.

My electrci HLT is very nice, and can easily be operated on 120VAC and 15A, but this is an intermittent load.

The pump is added to run the HERMS, that pulls 1.8A

If you want to boil with electric, people have done it, on 5 gallon batches, with 120VAC, but it is not a quick way to boil and takes copious amounts of insulation. On the other hand, if you can access 240VAC and 25-30A you can easily boil with electric in a SS kettle.

I have been running my cooler based E-HERMS (you have seen the brewcasts and vids) for a year now and it is amazing.

With the HERMS HEX being powered by 120VAC, I prefer the cooler HLT, simply because the insulating properties are so excellent. I can have the entire system up to operating temp and the system as a whole radiated almost no heat whatsoever. And what it does radiate, comes from the fitting and hoses running to the pump.

As mentioned before you must be diligent in the build phase with a cooler to assure no leaks. I built my own bulkheads and we have determined that you have to install a stiffening "washer" around the hole where the element enters the HLT to compensate for the flexing of the inner cooler liner at high temps. This will keep the element from leaking.

This is more than you need to know at this point, but the point is with electric rigs, leaks are more than just a nuisance

The Pol said:

My electrci HLT is very nice, and can easily be operated on 120VAC and 15A, but this is an intermittent load.

The pump is added to run the HERMS, that pulls 1.8A

If you want to boil with electric, people have done it, on 5 gallon batches, with 120VAC, but it is not a quick way to boil and takes copious amounts of insulation. On the other hand, if you can access 240VAC and 25-30A you can easily boil with electric in a SS kettle.

I have been running my cooler based E-HERMS (you have seen the brewcasts and vids) for a year now and it is amazing.

With the HERMS HEX being powered by 120VAC, I prefer the cooler HLT, simply because the insulating properties are so excellent. I can have the entire system up to operating temp and the system as a whole radiated almost no heat whatsoever. And what it does radiate, comes from the fitting and hoses running to the pump.

As mentioned before you must be diligent in the build phase with a cooler to assure no leaks. I built my own bulkheads and we have determined that you have to install a stiffening "washer" around the hole where the element enters the HLT to compensate for the flexing of the inner cooler liner at high temps. This will keep the element from leaking.

This is more than you need to know at this point, but the point is with electric rigs, leaks are more than just a nuisance

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Great info! Thanks. I understand about 70% of that, but I'll have my EE friend explain it to me at a third grade level. I don't have to keep the cooler MLT, but I like it, and it's paid for!

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

I am 5' 8.5" in real life and in Sketchup, just for height reference.

You are likely going to need a step stool for mixing your mash in any arrangement of a two tier or more. Us short folk are just at a disadvantage sometimes.

Click to expand...

You know, one of the sculptures I saw in my "research" had a fold out step as part of the build. I'll see if I can find that, and if it could be incorporated into my build.

I'd really like a three-tier, taking into account what Beercrazy said, but I have 9 foot ceilings and I may want to move the rig out of there eventually. I think the two tier will give me a smaller footprint, and a lower profile, but still be very usuable.

At some point, I'd like to invited myself over to Lehr's or to Boerderij_Kabouter's to see their stuff in action! I've "seen" Pol's, because of the webcasts, and that really helps me to think about what I want and what I need.

I made a double batch yesterday, and all of the hauling, lifting, dumping, etc, really was tiring. I'm getting old!

YooperBrew said:

Great info! Thanks. I understand about 70% of that, but I'll have my EE friend explain it to me at a third grade level. I don't have to keep the cooler MLT, but I like it, and it's paid for!

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I say keep the cooler MLT, and get a cooler HLT... this will make an efficient HERMS setup!

I really did not like my 3-tier. I fly sparge though and balancing the flow rates is a pain in the arse (IMO) with the three tier because the water level in the HLT drops, thereby slowing the flow rate. I think pumps are easy to use, speed up the brewday, and generally make everything easier. As long as you don't abuse them they will last a LONG time.

You are invited to my place any time Yoop! I won't be brewing for at least a month because I am cleaning up my brewery (nasty basement), but after that I can give you a show. I wish I could do a podcast, but my interwebs at home aren't strong enough.