Critique my brewstand design please.

brewman ! said:

As far as the control system goes, I am trying to find a serial port (RS232) board that has a number of 8 or 10 bit analog to digital converters on it as well as a few digital outputs.

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Arduino

This board is sweet!! It only has 6 analog controls, and 14 digital, but if you search their site some people have made multiplexors for it. It also has java lib for it too and usb connection!!
Ohh and its cheap! $32.00

Check it out

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=666


Theres another one out there but i cant remember what its call but its all based on the wiring lanaguage.

Excellent find on the IO board ! I'm game to use it. I'm a Linux guy/developer, so its perfect for me and it supports all platforms and java to boot. Perfect.

Question: is this project just for me or are others thinking of building one ? It should be pretty inexpensive.

Some costs... pump, new, $50, controller board $32, solid state relays for switching 250VAC, 20A, $34 each, 4.5KW heating elements, $10 each. Cubes are $15 each if you find them on sale. The HERM heater vessel needs a copper coil in it. About 15 feet of 1/2" or 25 feet of 3/8" if my calcs are right. Fittings. Quick connects. Paint.

I assume you all have a brew pot and a computer and a burner and you can rig up a false bottom for the mash vessel. Likewise you probably have chillers.

Wheels are optional.

I think the steel is down to about 30 feet now, 1.5" or 2" square tubing. I'd probably go for 0.125 wall now and get rid of the gusset in the angle bend there. The mash vessel holds 12 gallons x 8.5 pounds per gallon = 100ish pounds. Its center is about 2 feet from the arm's attachment point on the frame, so that is 200 ftlbs of torque and there are 2 arms, so 100 ftlbs of torque each. No problem for a decent weld with 0.125 or even 0.100 wall. Maybe 0.100 wall with 2x2 material.

Is this interesting to other people or just me ?

I'd love to but I think the controller thing is a little outa my skill base.

I'd love to but I think the controller thing is a little outa my skill base.

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I could teach a 6 year old to upload code to the controller.

I'll write a Java app that runs on the PCs. That will be the user interface to the brewing process. It will have a temperature chart, a mash temp schedule, etc. I'll make it open source so that anyone that wants the code to make changes or improve it can. And those that just want to use it can.

And I'll write the controller code as well. Same thing, share it, etc.

All a non computer user would have to do is install the Java app on their PC and then download the code onto the board. As a matter of fact, we could make the download process part of the Java app, so it happens automatically.

I do this sort of stuff all the time.

Once the code is loaded on the controller, you'll just have to wire it up. That is pretty straight forward. Not really much different from those Love controllers. But this will do tons and tons more things.

Sounds good.

A bit more advanced than this,

Orfy: what do you think of the stand design ?

A bit more advanced than this,

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There is nothing wrong with "that". I brewed in the kitchen too. I'm not criticizing anyone for brewing like "that".

I'm just at a point where I want a nice brew rig. Something I park in the garage and forget until I need it.

And when I need it, I want to roll it out, plug it in and go to work. I don't want to mess up the kitchen. I don't smell up the house. I'll make 6 or 12 gallons of high quality wort. It doesn't take all day. I'm not totally wore out from brewing 5 or 10 gallons. I don't have to intensively babysit it until I have to watch for boil overs. That is what I want.

Its a time thing.

And its also the quality of the beer I can brew. My beers got better with my HERMs setup, but I bet they will be much better with this rig. Mashing is all about temperature control and this rig should do that in spades. And then, when the batch is done, we should be able to save the temperature profile of the mash and analyze it 45 days later when we drink the beer. It should give repeatable results, time after time.

I agree about making the frame open for easier cleaning etc.

I think any of the thin sheet steel would need to be in stainless. The frame looks functional. I'd be worried about those wheels. I think I'd prefer them to be on 4 legs and us a load carrier/jack to move it.

like this but the industrial sturdy version.
http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/tool-kits/clarke-load-carrier.asp

Here are some interesting posts from the more beer forum, where they discuss the B3-1550, etc.

Here is a discussion of RIMS and HERMS. I don't agree with everything that is said here.
http://morebeer.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15454

Here is a nice single tier system. He went totally electric. I can't help but think that its no longer necessary to use SS for the HLT or MLT anymore. And my last HLT was SS ! Notice the use of 2 pumps. My last system was 1 tier. I got away with using 1 pump by using it to pump wort into the boiler and manually rinsing the bed with a pitcher of water from the HLT. It worked, I guess. It wasn't the nice smooth flow that a pump would give. I'll be using a float control on my next rig.
http://morebeer.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12909

Does a 1550 save time ?
http://morebeer.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15282

One guy did an AG brew in 4 hours !

Notice in his estimate the first 30 minutes of that was warming sparge water. I want the computer to have my sparge water at mash in temp when I enter the garage in the morning. No waiting.

I want the mash to proceed without me adjusting any temps, even if its a multi step mash. I'll check circulation from time to time. I want the sparge to be mostly automatic too.

I understand I'll have to watch the boil. No problem. BTW: the PC software should beep when its time to put the hops in so they aren't forgotten.

Another guy has the HLT at the right temp when he is done his morning coffee.

"I opted for the plain SMART and the digital HLT. I run the smart continuously with the HLT set at 10 deg higher then I want my mash. this work very good. While it is mashing, I can sit and read."

Just for giggles, the digital SMART option is $385, the deluxe control panel is $445, the sparge pump level control option is $90 and the digital hot liquor control option is $450. I'll spend a ton less on my whole rig than what those options cost ($1370) and it will do a lot more. For instance, we could add another solid state relay to the setup and turn the coffee pot on at 7:30AM !

http://morebeer.com/browse.html?category_id=1129&keyword=&x=1&y=1

I think I'd prefer them to be on 4 legs and us a load carrier/jack to move it.

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I guess that is the nice thing about building it yourself - we can each make it the way we want.

We have some big tables at work that ride on 4 inch casters. If my rig was always going to be on a smooth surface, I'd use those.

If it is going off road, then I'd like 2 big pneumatic wheels on one end and wheel barrow handles on the other end. Something like this.
http://yematyre.en.alibaba.com/prod...er_wheel_pneumatic_wheel/wheel_with_tire.html

At first I thought that was overkill, but I can just see rolling this thing out on the lawn some day and running off a batch while the kids play outside and maybe my wife suntans. We can all dream, right ? My 220V extension cord is 25 feet long and the plug is at the back of the garage. Cord through the window, I'm there !

Now, I bet there is some spillage in that scenario and grass gets soft when wet. Casters would be useless then. Next problem would be a fly landing in the fermentor just as it gets filled !

I'm going to be busy for the next few days. I'll watch this from time to time, but I won't be posting. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas.

Doing it manually.

First thing I do is rehydrate my yeast,]
Then put the mash water on.
While this is waiting I set the mash tun up and weigh the grain bill.
The waters done and I then do the mash for 90 minutes.
In the mean time I set up my kettle and get my sparge water ready
Time so far 2hrs.
My batch sparge take 20-30 minute.
Time 2hrs 30
Bring to the Boil 30 minutes
60 minute boil.
In the mean time clean the kitchen area rinse the mash tun and put away. Sanitise the Carboy and put the HLT away.
Time so far 4hrs
Chill the wort 25m
Aerate rack and pitch 20 mins
Time in total including set up, full brew and put away <5hrs

Even with automation I'd say it's hard to get below that with out cutting down the mash time. If you cut out the time to heat the mash water then you'd still need the time to prep for the brew.

I think you should rig a full espresso/latte machine up to it!

I guess its not only how much time it takes overall, but how much attention it needs in that time. I agree that 4 to 5 hours is minimum. Could I possibly dough in and go have breakfast with my family ? That would be huge.

The other possibility is double batch brew days. Be mashing the second beer while boiling the first. Multi tasking !

Here is my latest iteration. I left the cubes low so that the mash can be stirred. A guy on another site made a good point about it being a pain to get at a high mash vessel. Someday I might want to batch sparge and that might require some stirring.

http://www.pbase.com/me2001/image/71677402

I hope I didn't sound too bossy about the gussets. They could be put in.

How low/high does one want the brew pot ? Keep in mind we have a pump to pump the wort through the chiller and into a fermentor.

Something else happened here. We got the material required down far enough that we can start looking at something other than mild steel.

For example, one could use 2" x 2" aluminum, .125 wall. Its under $4 a foot, probably closer to $3 in 20 foot lengths. The only problem is that its much harder to weld. Time to start bolting this together ? I hate bolted frames !
http://www.onlinemetalsupply.com/st...il.aspx?sid=1&sfid=96027&c=696861&i=193260916

Its corrosion resistant (except for aluminum oxide) and shines up really nice.

The only part of the frame that I wouldn't make from aluminum is the kettle support pieces because it doesn't take a lot of heat to soften aluminum.

One more thing. My pump is self priming, so it could be moved up.

This whole brew rig is now so low now it might be unhandy. The pump and HLT are practically on the floor. I'd have to make sure there are no valves or connectors sticking out to trip over or catch an ankle on or break off. Might need a rail to protect things down there ? Or has it gotten too low ?

I think I'd move the pump right up underneath the hot water vessel and put the chiller at the bottom. But I'm not sure I'd like the control panel under the pump, getting wet every time the pump is uncoupled.

How about this ?
http://www.pbase.com/me2001/image/71678850

Now I've got this feeling that I'd like to move everything up about a foot, except the brew kettle.
Maybe like this ?
http://www.pbase.com/me2001/image/71679073

Here is a bunch of shots of a 1550 in action. Note the last images and then a series of quick shots showing how they dump the spent grains.

http://www.nhbrewers.com/mdf/brew/index.htm

Question: why am I not building my system with 2 or 3 of the cut off kegs I have ? They hold about 14 gallons each. Am I gaining anything by using coolers ? Less heat loss, I guess a lot less, which is important if one is using electric heat sources. But I could also insulate my kegs with hot water heater blankets pretty easily.

Brewman
I really like your idea of using your laptop and RS232 I am very interested in how I can do that. I am an industrial electrician and was going to use a micro logics processer with a panelview. But your way sounds A WHOLE BUNCH CHEAPER. I have never programed in JAVA is it much different than latter logic??? and what type of processing system do I need? In JAVA is there timers and such that you can program like you can with an allen bradley or GE latter logic functions. although I would like to learn a new way to program and if this way that your talking about can be done witha 50 doller processer and some relays I AM THERE I was going to use therrmel cuppels but thermisters are cheep and very accurate. So I would be happy to share with you some of ideas I have for automation on a brew system. I have found some float switches that can handle up to 180 deg F they are tank switches from mC Master carr by using two of these in your system you can basicly walk away during the sparge system I am using 120v AC solinoid valves and a magnitic drive pump to control flow. But my system is totally different from most, its an interesting set up with the hot h2o tank (electric 2 3000 watt elements @ 240 vac = 25 amps) (any dryer curcut in any garage can handle that ) sitting above the mash tun ( tippy tun) and boil kettel that are on the same plane and they are above the hop back/grant, and everything flows to and from the grant via a pump simple yet affective (I think) I am building it as we speak. anyhow temp control would be nice not having to buy a controler and I have to buy relays for the hot h2o tank anyway. how hard is it to make on the fly changes to this system your talking about???
Cheers
JJ

Brewman I really like your idea of using your laptop and RS232

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Thanks.

I am very interested in how I can do that. I am an industrial electrician and was going to use a micro logics processer with a panelview. But your way sounds A WHOLE BUNCH CHEAPER.

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It is !

I have never programed in JAVA is it much different than latter logic???

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You mean ladder logic, right ? Totally different. Night and day. Have you ever programmed in BASIC, Pascal, C or Fortran ? Its kind of like that. Its a language.

The board that was suggested has been set up especially for non programmers can use it. Check out the Arduino links above. There is lots there to read if you want to learn. And the board and all the software is only $32.

and what type of processing system do I need?

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Just a PC, a cable and the board.

In JAVA is there timers and such that you can program like you can with an allen bradley or GE latter logic functions.

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They have timers and such, yes, but they aren't like the ladder logic in a PLC. I've done some PLC work, so I know what that is like.

Just to make sure we aren't misunderstanding things, the controller board gets programmed in C or C++ and I am proposing that the user interface application that runs on the PC would be programmed in Java.

although I would like to learn a new way to program and if this way that your talking about can be done witha 50 doller processer and some relays I AM THERE

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Well, the board will do it. The java development system for the PC is free too. See www.eclipse.org for more info. But the Java PC stuff is a little bit complicated. If you aren't a programmer, you might want to wait for me or someone else to get the first part of it done and then see if you want to jump in and help in that aspect.

I was going to use therrmel cuppels but thermisters are cheep and very accurate.

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I agree.

So I would be happy to share with you some of ideas I have for automation on a brew system. I have found some float switches that can handle up to 180 deg F they are tank switches from mC Master carr by using two of these in your system you can basicly walk away during the sparge system

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Like these for $13 ? http://www.durablecontrols.com/plastic.htm Its a crying shame not to have the pump automated during the sparge when the sensor only costs $13 !

I am using 120v AC solinoid valves and a magnitic drive pump to control flow. But my system is totally different from most, its an interesting set up with the hot h2o tank (electric 2 3000 watt elements @ 240 vac = 25 amps) (any dryer curcut in any garage can handle that ) sitting above the mash tun ( tippy tun) and boil kettel that are on the same plane and they are above the hop back/grant, and everything flows to and from the grant via a pump simple yet affective (I think) I am building it as we speak. anyhow temp control would be nice not having to buy a controler and I have to buy relays for the hot h2o tank anyway.

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Temp control is easily doable.

I think we are going to run into a bit of a problem if we try to do everything for every different system at once. I think we will have to start out with something fairly simple, yet more advance than what the current temp controllers do and then add more advanced features to it. I don't know what people are going to do for really nonstandard features. Probably dig in and do some programming themselves.

how hard is it to make on the fly changes to this system your talking about???

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Very easy if you can program. I could probably get a simple system up and running in a day and then add a whole bunch of features to it in short time. And once it runs for one, it runs for everyone - provided they have the same kind of system.

Hey Brewman,
I like the design so far but I have one question about the placement of the control box. Is it in a location sufficiently close to allow condensation of the steam from the kettle, HLT, or the heater water? I ask because I'd be a little concerned of condensation damaging any of the controls over the course of many brews. Just a thought but I bet as much thought as you've put into this that I'm simply not seeing your setup spatially to scale.

About using kegs, my RIMS system has 3 kegs and what I've noticed is that I need to follow your suggestion of insulating the mash-tun. For 5 gallon batches the mash-tun maintains temperatures very precisely but when I move up and brew 10 gallon batches my 3500W heating element has to cycle on quite often. I sometimes need a very low flame on the burner under the mash-tun to help maintain the temperature. I'm replacing the 3500W this weekend with a 4500W 240V element that is twice as long and I may end up having two 4500W burners. I'll need to see how it works out. I think when I'm at the store I'll shop around for an insulation jacket for the mash-tun.

I'm 5'11" or so SWMBO says but I'm more like 5'9" and I find my stand to be a little too high for visual inspection during brewing and I like to see what is taking place in the mash-tun as far as foaming,frothing and the flow rate. I just stand on a step stool but I"d much rather just lower the stand so that I can flat footed have a look-see. If you've seen a BrewMagic Pro http://www.kegs.com, that is the type of stand I have and I'm working on a design that will allow me to have the mash-tun on a tippy-dump system. Keep us posted.
Jeffrey

I like the design so far but I have one question about the placement of the control box. Is it in a location sufficiently close to allow condensation of the steam from the kettle, HLT, or the heater water? I ask because I'd be a little concerned of condensation damaging any of the controls over the course of many brews. Just a thought but I bet as much thought as you've put into this that I'm simply not seeing your setup spatially to scale.

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I don't like it above the water heater either. Truthfully, I am waffling on wanting a large (>3000 watt) element in a small plastic cooler. I'm starting to think that is a recipe for a meltdown or at least significant warpage. The next iteration might go back to a corny for the hot water tank.

I love it when people come forward with ideas and such. This thing is already 5x better than my last setup.

About using kegs, my RIMS system has 3 kegs and what I've noticed is that I need to follow your suggestion of insulating the mash-tun. For 5 gallon batches the mash-tun maintains temperatures very precisely but when I move up and brew 10 gallon batches my 3500W heating element has to cycle on quite often. I sometimes need a very low flame on the burner under the mash-tun to help maintain the temperature. I'm replacing the 3500W this weekend with a 4500W 240V element that is twice as long and I may end up having two 4500W burners. I'll need to see how it works out.

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Keep us informed. I'm afraid of RIMS truthfully, due to wort burning. The whole purpose of mashing is to build up enzymes to make sugars. Enzymes are very temp sensitive and higher temps (180F+) can kill some of them. So I'm not sure how I feel about running wort past a very hot (300F) element. I'd love to hear a detailed answer on this. Have you ever measured return wort temp on your system when its running hard, ie heater on quite a bit ?

I think when I'm at the store I'll shop around for an insulation jacket for the mash-tun.

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Water heater jackets are supposed to work well.

I'm 5'11" or so SWMBO says but I'm more like 5'9" and I find my stand to be a little too high for visual inspection during brewing and I like to see what is taking place in the mash-tun as far as foaming,frothing and the flow rate. I just stand on a step stool but I"d much rather just lower the stand so that I can flat footed have a look-see.

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Lots of people have told me the same thing.

runhard: have you ever batch sparged and done infusion mashes and compared how they are to your RIMS ? Do you ever get the feeling that we are making too much of step mashing and fly sparging ? It sure would be a lot simpler to design a system without HERMS or RIMS.

Design change !

I want to heat the mash with heatsticks, not by circulating the wort though a heat exchanger. I think this means that I want a round mash vessel, like a Gott or maybe Sanke kegs. I guess one could use a square vessel like a cube, but I think a round vessel would have better heat distribution and mixing.


Here is what I said in my "extreme cooler hacking" thread.

Look at this. http://www.cedarcreeknetworks.com/ccbc.htm

People using 2KW "heat sticks" to raise the temp of their mash ! I asked a guy a couple questions and he says it doesn't burn the wort or the grains as long as you don't let it sit still too long. Like you can let it sit for a bit without any trouble. But don't pull it out as it instantly burns the wort. I bet that RIM systems that are burning the wort don't have enough flow or the pipe diameter is too low or there is air in the line or something like that.

So... I want to heat my wort with heatsticks. I want to mount them on an automatic stirrer. I want the stirrer to mount in the ROUND mash vessel and be adjustable for different grain bed depths. I might have 2 versions of the heat sticks, one long version for deeper beds and one short for shallow beds.

I need an inexpensive high torque low speed motor to move the stirring arms. And I don't want to stir round and round. I want to stir 160 degrees and then return. I want this so that I can feed power to the heatsticks without having to worry about a cord bunching up or using a rotating contactor. So what if one used a windshield wiper motor ? Cheap. Easily available. High torque. Does less than a full turn. Hmmm...

And the heat sticks will only have to run during temp increases. The stirring will run then too and whenever the mash should be stirred anyway.

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This is where having a flexible controller will come to play. We can control stirring. We can control heating. We can control recirculation as well. There is no reason why if one puts the heat in via the heat sticks that one wouldn't want to do some recirculation to make the temperature of the bed even more uniform.

Actually I am not sure I want to automate the stirring. That would probably be one of the more enjoyable, nostalgic parts of brewing. A man and his mash. Its a beautiful thing !

If one uses a well insulated mash vessel they keep the temperature for quite a long time. And a 4.5 KW heat stick would heat the mash up pretty quickly. And a manual stir would probably be better than a robotic stir because a human can get into all the nooks and crannies, etc. I think I want to stir my mash.

Lets say we are brewing a 12 gallon beer and we get 30 points per pound and we want OG to be 1.050. So we need 20 pounds of grains. That will be about 8 gallons of material or 65 pounds.

4.5KW = 15,534 BTU/hr = 255 BTU per minute.

255/ 65 pounds = just about 4F per minute.

150F to 168 F = 18 degrees. It should get there in about 5 minutes. I can stir my mash for 5 minutes ! That is the fun of brewing !

The 4500 watt hot water elements need a tank that is 12 inches in diameter, meaning the mash bed needs to be 12 inches deep. The heat sticks will burn out if they are not submersed. I could use 2 120V 2KW heat sticks too. They are shorter and have more surface area.

So no more heat exchanger tank and coils. And the mash vessel needs to be easily accessable. The cubes can stay again.

Now the only thing we need to automate is the temp of the hot liquor tank. I'm still going to use the controller board. I'll be putting temp sensors in the mash vessel and I want to record everything.

BTW, I've been reading and emailing people and lots of them said they wish they had mash tip on their units. Apparently, digging 25 pounds of wet grains out of a mash vessel isn't much fun.

Why do the heat sticks have to be on the stirrer. I'd mount them such that they don't get in the way of the stirrer. This way you don't have to worry about reversing the direction of the motor. And the motor can run all the time at low speed. This way you keep a nicely homogeneous mash all the time.

Kai

Feature creep is rearing it's ugly head. Look out!

I don't plan on ever going AG unless I hit the lottery and open my own brewery, but as for keeping items dry and dirt free while brewing I have 1, OK, 2 words - shower caps!

SOURCE: You usually get them in hotel rooms.

I can start collecting/saving them for you...

Feature creep is rearing it's ugly head. Look out!

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That is hilarious ! But you have to remember that in the process we ditched the whole water heater box and heat exchanger.

Why do the heat sticks have to be on the stirrer. I'd mount them such that they don't get in the way of the stirrer. This way you don't have to worry about reversing the direction of the motor. And the motor can run all the time at low speed. This way you keep a nicely homogeneous mash all the time.

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I guess you could. You'd maybe want 4 paddles on the stirrer so that mash was constantly being moved past the heat stick(s).

I take it you concur that this is a good approach to heating the mash in the tun ?

You might want to put a "dead man's switch" on the stick if you go that way. It will keep you from worrying about leaving it sitting in one place and burning the wort.

Yeah, well further to the wort burning comment, I did some searches and people say the 2KW 120V element is on the verge of doing so all the time. So much so that they like to run thinner mashes.

I'm beginning not to like that approach.

You know the approach to mash heating in the tun that I like ? Believe it or not... STEAM.

http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.4/jones.html

Here is what I am thinking... take a good corny keg. Put a 5 PSI relief valve on it. Mount the 4.5KW element on it. Put a line with a valve from the top of the keg to the a manifold on the bottom of the mash vessel. Put a temperature sensor in the corny. Pressure test it with air to make sure the relief valve works properly. Hydro test it at about 30 PSI just to be safe.

Fire it up with some water in it. Figure out what temp the keg needs to be at to be at about 5PSI of steam. Use the controller to keep the temp there. When you open the valve, you will have steam to heat the brew. When the temp drops the controller will kick the heating element on.

No mixing. No scorching. No recirculating, unless you want to. No heat exchangers. Just inject the steam. And it will bubble the mash to boot. And it will work with any mash vessel geometry.

Sounds good. But I'd be **** scared if the valve stuck and there was a blockage.
You've got a bomb.

I'd stick a large vent port on it with a blow off cap or a some other weak point in case there is a problem.

You could always put 2 relief valves on it just to be sure.

The other thing is that it will have a temp gauge on it for the controller to watch. You can't get higher pressure steam without higher temps. So for the keg to get above the setpoint pressure, the relief valve would have to jam AND the temperature would have to go out of range. We can check for that with the software.

I'm not advocating running the keg with steam blowing out of it like a stove top pressure cooker does. Nope, too wasteful on a 2 hour mash session. The controller will keep the temps at a few PSI below the blow off pressure.

brewman ! said:

I love it when people come forward with ideas and such. This thing is already 5x better than my last setup.

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I agree, people here have been very helpful and it seems that everyone wants to help each other make better beer.

brewman ! said:

Keep us informed. I'm afraid of RIMS truthfully, due to wort burning. The whole purpose of mashing is to build up enzymes to make sugars. Enzymes are very temp sensitive and higher temps (180F+) can kill some of them. So I'm not sure how I feel about running wort past a very hot (300F) element. I'd love to hear a detailed answer on this. Have you ever measured return wort temp on your system when its running hard, ie heater on quite a bit ?

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My efficiency has been good but now I'm concerned as you bring up a very good point. I just saw in Brew Your Own magazine an inexpensive way of making an in-line thermometer so I'll make that this weekend and brew a batch on my system and let you know. I'll place it directly after the element as see what temp. I'm running at. I know you've changed your design but there may be others that my little findings might benefit. Great idea Brewman !

brewman ! said:

runhard: have you ever batch sparged and done infusion mashes and compared how they are to your RIMS ? Do you ever get the feeling that we are making too much of step mashing and fly sparging ? It sure would be a lot simpler to design a system without HERMS or RIMS.

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My first 20 some odd batches of all grain where on a simple 3-tier gravity system I built out of 4x4s, turkey fryers, coolers, etc. I did both batch and fly sparging on that setup and I had good conversion, I'd just use about 1lb. more grain for batch sparging. I need to refer to my notebook to give you specifics but I'm visiting my folks this weekend doing some work around the ranch. If you're interested I'll PM with all the specifics of the different brews and their efficiencies when I return home. I've been listening to the podcast of basicbrewing.com and there was one session discussing how well modified most of the malts are and how step mashing isn't really necessary for "most". I still step mash and will do so until I've had an opportunity to gain further knowledge concerning the modified malts. I'm sure there are others who are in the know and can comment. I look forward to seeing more designs.

Here is how hard it is to get an arduino board going.
http://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/Howto

I am going to order my board this week. I want to start working on the steam generator over the Christmas holidays. No promises when things will get done, but this has my attention. And remember this is my hobby that I do in my spare time. Although lately one would have to question that !

I've been out for a few days and won't get back to my main computer until monday. I used Pro Engineer for the 3d modeling. I was going to do the color changes you asked for, but sounds like the design has taken a turn. I will take a closer look on monday and see what I can do. Let me know how I can help. Got to go.

Thanks fifelee !

I really like you last concept and the steam generator sounds really interesting. Not sure if you can get your hands on a pipe bender, but this would be a one of a kind system. I think I may make mine this way. I haven't had time to add other features like the controler and wort chiller. Maybe after christmas.



Also thanks for all the controller info. I am a mechanical guy, but would love know control systems better. I have done a little ladder logic, so I was going to use a plc for my system. But your info has given me the confidence to attempt a little C++. Please keep posting your progress and I would love to have a look at the code when you get there.

brewman ! said:

Is this interesting to other people or just me ?

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I'm interested but i need to know how difficult the welding will be. I have limited experience, and know very little about the materials and equipment needed to pull this off. Is this something a novice could do?

On the other hand, there is a fabrication shop that builds weirdo equipment for our lab, maybe they could build the stand for me.

Are you going to offer tech support for the controller ? Programming is a another area where I have no experience.

All this considered, could I build this and brew without burning the house down? I think my wife would be way more pissed than if I messed up the kitchen!

Matt

fifelee - I've been watching this thread with great interest because I'm getting ready to build my stand soon. Just a suggestion, but wouldn't the handles be better/easier to handle if they were more "wheelbarrow" like? Use a couple pieces of "C" channel, some round tubing (for the handles), drill a hole through the pair, bolt them up and they will drop out of the way when your not moving the stand.

If your handle is not low enough, it's going to be awkward moving your stand around without any wheels under it.

Just a thought.

I really like you last concept and the steam generator sounds really interesting.

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I did some calcs on it last night and its totally feasible. The steam generator will raise the mash temp by up to 20F per minute for a 10 pound grain bill ! Compared with about 3F per minute for a good RIM or HERM system. It will no longer be a problem to do really fast, accurate mash temp changes. Taking the mash from 128F to 170F will require the addition of about 2/3rds of a cup of water, injected as steam.

I am going to call it Steam Injected Mash System or SIMS.

I've got a rudimentary parts list as well. Time to start testing.

I ordered my arduino board this morning. It will be a week or so until it gets here. (USPS)

"Not sure if you can get your hands on a pipe bender, but this would be a one of a kind system. I think I may make mine this way."

I am going to built mine out of square tubing, which doesn't bend well. I think I may get it galvanized. I think that is a pretty durable finish and it looks great too. And it is much cheaper than SS or aluminum, which won't stand up to burner heat. A local company will DIP my brewing stand, trailer hitch, boat hitch, etc. up to 350 pounds of stuff for $100 ! You can't buy much SS for $100 !

Also thanks for all the controller info. I am a mechanical guy, but would love know control systems better. I have done a little ladder logic, so I was going to use a plc for my system. But your info has given me the confidence to attempt a little C++. Please keep posting your progress and I would love to have a look at the code when you get there.

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No problem and sure. I haven't done much reading yet, but that arduino board is designed for non technical people like artists and such. It should be very easy to use.

Thanks for generating the 3Ds !

I'm interested but i need to know how difficult the welding will be. I have limited experience, and know very little about the materials and equipment needed to pull this off. Is this something a novice could do?

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Depends how much time and money you want to spend learning to weld ! Its not going to be hard to weld, just stick or mig should do it. There is no SS or aluminum welding. Buy a welder and practice for a bit.

I can't believe how much $$ people pay for sculptures compared to how easy they are to build.

Remember that you could always bolt your structure together.

Are you going to offer tech support for the controller ? Programming is a another area where I have no experience.

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Tech support ? Nope, not formally ! With enough good homebrew offered, maybe ! I'll answer questions and put together a how to.

All this considered, could I build this and brew without burning the house down? I think my wife would be way more pissed than if I messed up the kitchen!

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You have to be careful welding ! Sparks can start things on fire. With respect to the electric heating elements, everything will be on a plug in, so just unplug it if it runs away. You could also wire switches into the circuits to shut things down. And you should have plenty of water around to put out the fire.

I consider propane burners to be much more dangers than electric heating elements, but maybe that is just me. All it takes is one gust or a pot boil over to blow out the burner and you have raw natural gas spewing everywhere !

With a ground fault interrupter, its almost impossible to get a shock.

dcbrewmeister, I agree the handles should be more wheelbarrow like. So that one grabs them mid thigh and then straightens the legs to lift. They should also be removeable so that one has full access to the brewpot when boiling. Just my $0.02 though.

Question of the day... which vessels ?

I have 3 cut off Sanke kegs, about 14 gallons. They aren't shiny, but I could polish them. I could also sell them for $60 each.

I could buy Igloo Cube coolers for $30 each.

I could buy Rubbermaid 10 gallon round coolers for $60 each.

If I use the Sankes, I think I would need to make insulation for the HLT and the mash vessel. And I need lids for them as well.

I am worried a little bit about bed depth when brewing light 6 gallon recipes. The inside of the Cubes is 14x14. The inside of a Gott is 13" diam. The inside of the Sanke is 15" diameter. As far as bed depth goes, The deepest would be the Gott, followed by the Sanke, followed by the Cubes. The Gott holds 10.2 gallons, the Sanke holds 14ish and the Cubes hold 12. I might occasionally brew 12 gallons of heavier beer.

I could also buy new shiny brewpots for about $400. (15 gallon)

If I sold my Sankes for $60 each and considered that I would have to spend $120 on lids for them, I'd have $280, almost enough to buy the new pots. But I don't want to tell my wife I am spending $400 on new pots ! She would freak !

I might make 2 versions of this stand, just for fun. The first one will be plain, the next one will be shiny. Hmmm...