Better Bottle Failure

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Beer:30

Beer:30

Chief Bottle Washer
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After kegging I always soak my carboys with PBW. Sometimes I am real busy and they will sit with PBW wash water for a few days. I'm starting to think that this is not such a hot idea. Over the last three days I had 3 BBs develop a crack across the bottom and proceed to empty all the wash water on my basement floor while I was at work. Starting to think that the BB plastic cannot stand up to prolonged PBW soakes without failure. Anyone experience this? Now I'm out 3 carboys. :mad:
 
I can't speak to PBW, but I have gotten busy and left better bottles soak with oxi-clean for over a week. No worse for wear. I have certainly never heard of any failing due to a cleaning agent. That is very odd indeed. Something not right there, beyond the PBW.
 
Sounds highly unlikely that the PBW did that. (PBW is a mix of sodium carbonate and percarbonate, both of which I believe are safe in plastics <-- passedpawn regurgitates what he has read on the interwebs).

Wonder what the PBW container is made of!

:off:Reminds me of an old riddle: Royal alchemist approaches king with a jar of liquid that he claims is so acidic it will etch through any known material. King removes the alchemist's head. When asked why the beheading, king replies "he was a liar... what was the jar made of?":off:
 
Do you shake or move your better bottle around without using the recommended method of putting a tennis ball under it.

bb_mixing_setup.jpg


From the website;

Important Note: Never rock or swirl Better-Bottle carboys without using a tennis ball. Doing so will cause the edges of the bottom of the carboy to flex under great stress repeatedly and eventually cause cracks, like bending a paper clip back and forth.
Click to expand...

There's been a few threads about it. They are a great product, but if they get oscillating there can be problems.
 
I love the idea about the tennis ball. I just started using BBs, and I love them. No worries. I DO worry about breaking my glass carboy. What I don't understand is why there is an argument. This thread had nothing to do with glass carboys.

So, I finally racked my Simcoe APA, and I cleaned my 3g BB by filling it with water and a 1/2 scoop of Sun Oxygen Cleaner and letting it sit over night. Then I dumped 7/8 of the cleaning water, tossed in a wash cloth and shook it up. Nicely cleaned.
 
I'd contact the manufacturer, that just doesn't sound right that they would fail on exposure to a common cleaner.
 
Wow, I did not know about the required tennis ball for shaking. And I always shake the hell out of the full carboy after I pitch. That is definitely the problem. The thing that was odd about it (and I am not complaining here) was that all three didn't fail until they were soaking with cleaner. Thank the beer gods that they didn't leak when they were full of beer! Its back to glass for me. I am careful with my glass ones and when handled properly will last forever. Thank you all!
 
shaking it without a tennisball WOULD cause some fractures.

I fail to see how 3 days of oxyclean causes it to fail catastrophically though.

The pressure of it is a poor argument as it just came off of being used as a fermenter for much longer than 3 days. So Im still lost, sure there may be fractures because of the lack of a ball, but the oxyclean wouldnt cause a failure.

Or do I suck at physics here?
 
If the Better Bottles require some manner of support in the concave at the bottom to prevent stress fractures during agitation, then would the same hold true for long-term regular use? There's a degree of agitation that comes from lifting, moving, and otherwise manipulating a vessel for regular use, and over time would this cause the same stresses?

I only wonder, because if you have to replace a Better Bottle every year or two, seems more expensive than a plastic bucket, or a glass carboy you'd buy once. Particularly if you get the ported BB's that cost upwards of $75 each.

As Father's Day is coming up, and I just pointed my wife at my AHS wishlist, I'm somewhat concerned that I ought remove the BB's from that wishlist and replace it with something I won't have to re-purchase in twelve months.
 
You could switch to glass, but then again, you might want to make sure your health insurance is up to date in case you need a trip to the ER. How much does a sliced tendon "cost"? I've had the same better bottles for 3 years now and they're all fine. They'll be even better if you carry then in a milk crate when full.
 
Bobby_M said:
I've had the same better bottles for 3 years now and they're all fine.
Click to expand...

That's good to hear. I've been sorely tempted to grab a 6-gallon ported BB with the racking attachment to make transferring easier. Even considering grabbing a 5-gallon along with it for a secondary.
 
Here is my point though; vendors who sell this bottle should make this special handlign requirement clear. Not slamming it around it just common sense, but having to use a tennis ball beneath it to swirl, that is specialized handling. Don't advertise it as virtually unbreakable when to the contrary, it needs to be handled carefully. I emailed BB and NB to see it I can get a refund. We shall see who tells me to P-off...(probably both of them)
 
Check this out; Northern Brewer just responded to my email; they did mention that BB has the "never rock or swirl a full BB" warning on their website, but they are still going to replace my Better Bottles that failed! :) They ROCK :rockin:
My point to them though is that for those customers who buy from a retailer (like NB) and don't go to the manufacturers website, they will never know about this. Maybe some people will learn from my mistake, but I still think that retailers should mention this as a footnote so that we all know before we purchase it how to take care. It all worked out great, so I am happy. :mug:
 
WormBoy said:
Check this out; Northern Brewer just responded to my email; they did mention that BB has the "never rock or swirl a full BB" warning on their website, but they are still going to replace my Better Bottles that failed! :) They ROCK :rockin:
My point to them though is that for those customers who buy from a retailer (like NB) and don't go to the manufacturers website, they will never know about this. Maybe some people will learn from my mistake, but I still think that retailers should mention this as a footnote so that we all know before we purchase it how to take care. It all worked out great, so I am happy. :mug:
Click to expand...

NB kicks butt. Glad they're taking care of you.

I never knew about the tennis ball stuff until I read this thread...and I shake the bejesus out of my BB with 2 gallons of water in it to airate. Not to mention that I poor my sanitizer from my BB to sanitizing bucket, which causes the BB to flex a little.

For future reference for all who find this thread... Better Bottle Technical Website. Scroll all the way down to the bottom to read the entry regarding the tennis ball.
 
Actually one of the first brewer's to experience better bottle failure when they first came out, was a member here, and BB replaced his, it was after that that they posted the warning on their website and printed material.

There's a couple threads on it.

I discussed the process of how the failure happens in this post about brewing on a boat and attempting to secure a BB with strapping.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/coopers-other-fermenter-boat-128897/#post1443897

It's a pretty common physics issue, it is rare, and I still would rather use a bb (I have one of every size and love them, than glass (I prefer to keep my blood on the inside of my skin.)

There's to really easy ways to prevent this when aerating use this;

S78_1_.jpg


Basic oxygen stone aeration kit with red o2 bottle and stone (I put my stone at the end of a broken racking cane JUST like this.)

And just like with your glass carboys when you want to move it around, keep it in this;

M-MC001.jpg


And if you are really rather than rocking it on a point, lift the milk crate and shake it back and forth.
 
When you do the PBW soak how hot is the water you use? Perhaps there is some thermal shock or just thermal degredation going on?
 
There is one possible chemistry explanation, called environmental stress cracking. It happens when some organic chemicals, like detergents, get into a tiny crack in a plastic. They cause the crack to grow until catastrophic failure occurs. See this opening quote from Wikipedia.

Environmental Stress Cracking (ESC) is one of the most common causes of unexpected brittle failure of thermoplastic (especially amorphous) polymers known at present. Environmental stress cracking may account for around 15-30% of all plastic component failures in service.[1]

ESC and polymer resistance to ESC (ESCR) have been studied for several decades.[2] Research shows that the exposure of polymers to liquid chemicals tends to accelerate the crazing process, initiating crazes at stresses that are much lower than the stress causing crazing in air.[2][3] The action of either a tensile stress or a corrosive liquid alone would not be enough to cause failure, but in ESC the initiation and growth of a crack is caused by the combined action of the stress and a corrosive environmental liquid.

It is somewhat different from polymer degradation in that stress cracking does not break polymer bonds. Instead, it breaks the secondary linkages between polymers. These are broken when the mechanical stresses cause minute cracks in the polymer and they propagate rapidly under the harsh environmental conditions.[4] It has also been seen that catastrophic failure under stress can occur due to the attack of a reagent that would not attack the polymer in an unstressed state.
Click to expand...

Now, if PBW has any detergents it it, and I don't have a clue if it does, then this could be the explanation. Small cracks have formed from flexing the BB, and the detergent caused ESC. I'm not saying this is the cause, but it's a possibility. And it's one more reason to be careful not to abuse the BB.

I have seen ESC crack the bottle caps on StarSan bottles, and I'll bet a lot of others here have too. After a year or so, if you screwed the cap back on too enthusiastically, the top cracked out of the cap. I think they fixed the problem a couple years ago, since my present StarSan bottle cap is still intact.
 
Meh, this explains why my two BBs cracked within 3 batches each. I also left them sitting with PWB for extended periods of time, but assumed that the cracks had formed from shaking them. Both developed cracks on the bottom where the plastic is thickest, which points away from the PWB being the cause. I have been transitioning to fermenting in kegs anyway so I'm just not going to bother with trying to return them to the LHBS. If I had been warned about the tennis ball thing when I bought them they would probably still be intact, but oh well.
 
For me it appeared to be a bad combination of both major factors; 1.) I always shook the Ba-Jesus out of each full carboy after pitching and I am a large dude and generate a lot of force, and 2.) I have often left carboys soaking for days on my plastic brew table where spilled PBW water surely dried and created the perfect chemical stress to create ESCs. Moral of the story; as many of you pointed out 1.) shake properly 2.) don't soak beyond manufacturers recommended concentration and duration, and very importantly, be cognizant of any spilled cleaner sitting between your carboys and the surface that they are sitting on.
 
One thing I thought was kind of cool about the Better Bottles is that if you grab one of those Dry Tap or Dry Lock or whatever it's called dry airlocks - you can lay the carboy on it's side and just roll it back and forth. It seems to do a great job of getting the liquid agitated that way.

I'm sure that if you had an un-drilled stopper that fit the opening well and didn't leak, you could do the same thing rather than swirling it around in the upright position.
 
Burgs said:
One thing I thought was kind of cool about the Better Bottles is that if you grab one of those Dry Tap or Dry Lock or whatever it's called dry airlocks - you can lay the carboy on it's side and just roll it back and forth. It seems to do a great job of getting the liquid agitated that way.
Click to expand...

I used to do this. I'd put a big strong rubberband and shrink wrap over the top of the carboy. Then, I'd lay it on a beach towel and roll the hell out of it. Worked great. I now just do the tennis-ball Tilt-O-Whirl.
 
Ouch, seems like a big design flaw from an engineering standpoint, no? Their bottles seem excellent except for this giant caveat. It's like buying a great Mercedes at a great price, except for the fact you have to hold the windshield when washing it or else it'll break in half.
 
I'm glad I read this thread, as I recently acquired 2 Better Bottles, just used one for the first time last week, and never knew about the tennis ball technique.
Glad to hear that Northern Brewer replaced your Better Bottle! Great customer service!
 

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