Best way to cut ingredient costs?

So I have been brewing a lot of high gravity beers lately - the typical profile is about 10-12lbs of DME and or course a couple ounces of hops with a liquid yeast tube, and a small assortment of steeping grains...

I would say on average that runs me about $65 bucks a pop (tax, out the door from the local brew store) and I was wondering if there are more effective means of obtaining the ingredients, or if that's just what you come to expect with those recipes...I know you can reuse the yeast, but from what little I have read and conversed with other brewers it's kind of time consuming, so for the sake of 5 bucks I was wondering if there are any other areas to cut costs? I'd like to cut it down to about $55 bucks so I can start brewing a couple batches a week...

I am definately cool with getting the speciatly grains and yeast at the local store - I figure that's usually $10-$15 bucks total - not the bulk of my cost...Plus, those are key ingredients that I wouldn't chance getting shipped or from a relatively unknown source...

Does anyone buy in bulk on say the Malt Extract - whether dry and/or liquid and just store it for when you need it? The guy at the brew store said the local Publix grocery store can refill a gallon of water for like .25 - so I figure I could save about 5 bucks a batch there - but could this compromise taste compared to the distilled water I have been buying new every batch?

Again, I am just curious for any input on what you guys have done in this area...


Thanks,

Fresh

Well, you can buy bulk LME or DME from midwest for considerably less than you're getting extract right now. The real cost savings will come when you switch to AG, you can probably get down to around half of what you're paying now (or less). The only thing is that it takes much more time, is more labor intensive, has a much larger margin of error, and is equipment heavy (if you like that sort of thing, it can be very simple).

There is a lot, or at least some, cost associated with going to all grain. However, once you are there, that is when you really start saving money. My brews cost me around $30-35 now and that is when I purchase yeast. I figure in the future, when I am re-using yeast and buying base grains in bulk, I will probably be able to get my brews down to the $20-$25 range.

I just did a bulk grain order with a couple of other homebrewers and will have my cost per AG batch down to around $7-8 per 5 gallons. Yes, it does take some money in equipment at first and does require more time.

As far as extracts go, if you can buy in bulk you will save money. Just makes sure you have a way to store it all well. Also using recipes instead of kits will save a ton of money.

What in general is entailed going AG - right now I am just doing like a 3 gallon boil with dme/lme/grains? Are we talking stepping out to the outdoor setup pretty much?

jdoiv said:

Also using recipes instead of kits will save a ton of money.

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How so? Most kits are priced less than the sum of their ingredients.

Going AG is the major thing.

As far as yeast, reusing yeast really isn't very difficult or time-consuming, and it can save you quite a bit if you're using liquid yeast.

Also, there are some very high quality dried yeasts on the market. I absolutely do not hesitate to us Safale 05 or Nottingham if they are appropriate to the style I am brewing.

freshbrew07 said:

What in general is entailed going AG - right now I am just doing like a 3 gallon boil with dme/lme/grains? Are we talking stepping out to the outdoor setup pretty much?

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Essentially, yes. For AG, the extra equipment bare minimum is:

• Turkey Fryer or other propane stand burner (I got 2 turkey fryer kits at WalMart for $40 each, right around thanksgiving time, and they came with the burner, a thermometer and a 30qt aluminum kettle, all of which I use every time I brew).
• A larger kettle for full boils. Preferably at least 8 gallons.
• A mash/lauter tun. This can be built at home rather inexpensively. Or you can buy a professionally-made setup, but be prepared to shell out some dough.
• A wort chiller, either counterflow or immersion. Chilling down full 5.5-gallon boils is much harder than chilling 3-gallon boils.
• In order to really take advantage of the method, you should also probably get a grain mill. I love my Barley Crusher. That way, you can buy the 55lb sacks of base grain (the bulk sacks only come unmilled), and you can also keep your grain fresher longer, as its shelf life is drastically reduced if you buy it premilled.
• If you don't already have one, you need some kind of aeration or oxygenation kit; since you're not adding any unboiled water at the end, your wort will be starved of oxygen and your yeast will not be happy.

I believe that's the minimum, as I see it. Hopefully I haven't forgotten anything.

Evan! said:

Essentially, yes. For AG, the extra equipment bare minimum is:

• Turkey Fryer or other propane stand burner (I got 2 turkey fryer kits at WalMart for $40 each, right around thanksgiving time, and they came with the burner, a thermometer and a 30qt aluminum kettle, all of which I use every time I brew).
• A larger kettle for full boils. Preferably at least 8 gallons.
• A mash/lauter tun. This can be built at home rather inexpensively. Or you can buy a professionally-made setup, but be prepared to shell out some dough.
• A wort chiller, either counterflow or immersion. Chilling down full 5.5-gallon boils is much harder than chilling 3-gallon boils.
• In order to really take advantage of the method, you should also probably get a grain mill. I love my Barley Crusher. That way, you can buy the 55lb sacks of base grain (the bulk sacks only come unmilled), and you can also keep your grain fresher longer, as its shelf life is drastically reduced if you buy it premilled.
• If you don't already have one, you need some kind of aeration or oxygenation kit; since you're not adding any unboiled water at the end, your wort will be starved of oxygen and your yeast will not be happy.

I believe that's the minimum, as I see it. Hopefully I haven't forgotten anything.

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thanks....I had that idea in my head....but haven't seen it in one spot.
/hijack

Yeah I have two friends that are brewmasters at SweetWater Brewry in Atlanta, they have a similar setup - I have a pic, but I am not sure how to post it, pretty much 3 full size sweetwater kegs stacked vertically, and they do AG...my buddy said we need to brew a batch some time, so I might sit in on his next batch and see the whole start to finish process...

What would be a good deal on buying in bulk some DME? I am wondering if me and my buddy went in on like 50-100lbs of DME(I would assume the 3lb bags of Munton's) that maybe we could cut the cost down? I am sure if I went to my local brew store and told him I was shopping it around and through out Midwest, that he might try and cut a deal - cut his cost, and make a quick move on a bulk margin scale...I think right now its like 10-11 bucks for 3 lbs plus tax...?

I think that buying DME in bulk would be the biggest factor in costs as well as either reusing yeast (easy) or purchasing dry yeasts (cheap).

I think HB_99 buys bulk DME and could probably give better advice on that. When I did extract brews, they were in the $35 range, usually. I think it was around $12 for a 3 pound bag of DME, so that was always the biggest cost.

If you don't wanna have to split it with someone else...you can get really cheap extra light and wheat LME from Listermann.com. $2.15/lb. I have yet to see it cheaper. And the fact that you mentioned Hotlanta leads me to assume that you are located east of the mississippi, meaning you get free shipping from Listermann on orders over $35. Midwest sells 55lbs of DME for $134 ($2.43/lb before shipping), but you've gotta pay shipping, and you have to buy it in that amount. Listermann has no minimum amount, so you could buy one pound if you wanted. Granted, LME is a little more of a PITA to use, but it's a small price to pay for getting it that cheap, if you ask me. Especially with the free shipping (and they have awesome customer service too---if you're not satisfied, they'll have a replacement order at your door in a few days).

For a late b-day present, I had SWMBO buy me 50 lbs. of DME as opposed to having my windows tinted. That's the real pricey stuff, and in bulk it's about half of what the LHBS has. It'll definitely make the regular purchases of hops and specialty grains not seem so bad.

Wow, yeah that would be a good area to cut cost! Like I said I can easily stomach the $50 batch of high gravity - I figure a buck a beer is well worth the effort for **** that cost me $3 a beer out of the store - I may just get like 20-30lbs of the Extra Light Extract at the $2.15 a pop - and then see if my local store can shave any bones off of a bulk order of DME... I am not too familiar with the differences - quality, taste - in the various malt extracts would this extra light be good for double IPA's - I usually go heavy on the cascade for a good hoppy taste, so would this still jive for a solid microbrewry like double IPA? The last batch the brew supply store recommended going half and half with liquid and dry malt extract...

Bike N Brew said:

How so? Most kits are priced less than the sum of their ingredients.

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Really? That's not been what I have seen. The last kit I used my wife bought for me and cost $25 for a 5 gallon batch. I'm not sure what the cost would have been if I had bought everything separate, but I doubt it would have been more. AG kits from morebeer run in the $20-25 range, yet by buying in bulk I'm cutting that in half easily.

to figure out what grains you want in bulk, did you just see what kinds you were using often, and get a bunch of that?

Evan! said:

Especially with the free shipping (and they have awesome customer service too---if you're not satisfied, they'll have a replacement order at your door in a few days).

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That store is here in town (Cincy) Dan Listermann-and the rest of the staff are class acts-and have helped me a ton as a newbie with great advice/recipe help, etc...not trying to plug them-just saying that when I read LHBS horror stories on here-I feel pretty lucky to have guys like this around.

98EXL said:

to figure out what grains you want in bulk, did you just see what kinds you were using often, and get a bunch of that?

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I love Maris Otter as a base malt...and I heard somewhere (can't remember where) that Gleneagles Maris Otter is similar, just a touch darker and more flavorful. So I went with that. That's the first and only bulk I've gotten so far. In the future, what I'd like to do is get one of those and one pilsner...because it's hard to make really light beers when your base malt lovi is around 5.

freshbrew07 said:

Wow, yeah that would be a good area to cut cost! Like I said I can easily stomach the $50 batch of high gravity - I figure a buck a beer is well worth the effort for **** that cost me $3 a beer out of the store - I may just get like 20-30lbs of the Extra Light Extract at the $2.15 a pop - and then see if my local store can shave any bones off of a bulk order of DME... I am not too familiar with the differences - quality, taste - in the various malt extracts would this extra light be good for double IPA's - I usually go heavy on the cascade for a good hoppy taste, so would this still jive for a solid microbrewry like double IPA? The last batch the brew supply store recommended going half and half with liquid and dry malt extract...

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I find all the miscellaneous darker extracts to be superfluous. I use extra light exclusively. I get my color and flavor from mashing (if you don't mash, you can steep the grains, which is what I did when I started brewing).

Just be aware: since there's water in LME, your potential sugars from it are lower per pound than DME. Your potential SG PPPG for LME is usually 1.036 while DME is 1.045. Not a big deal, just be aware of it. All it means is you need to use a little more LME than DME to get to your desired gravity.

I've used the listermann's LME alot, and it's very clean and fresh, and has a high fermentability. Use it as a sugar---and use the grains and hops to flavor the beer.

Good deal guys - this thread definately helped! If you can imagine the days where you were shelling out around 70 bucks a batch, I am sure you can appreciate where I am coming from! I guess I will buy some bulk of the extra light LME and try and line up a solid hook on some bulk DME too - the guys recommend the half and half approach on some of the higher gravity stuff...I will know if it's money in about 2 weeks when the first batch will be sampled!

Thanks Again!

My buddy that I might go in on bulk with asked how long the shelf life is on DME and/or LME? I had nothing for him...

I would not go bulk on DME, you will go to use it(if you are like me) in a month or 2 andfind a block of sweet cement.
LME lasts indefinitely although I always hear fresher is better.

I would strongly urge you to consider using 2 lbs of brown sugar in a high gravity brew like an imperial stout.(5 gallon batch) As long as your yeast is up to the task, it will ferment out and add a nice creamy flavor. It costs $1.99 and can be up to a 6th or so of your fermentables. Good Luck!

jdoiv said:

Really? That's not been what I have seen. The last kit I used my wife bought for me and cost $25 for a 5 gallon batch. I'm not sure what the cost would have been if I had bought everything separate, but I doubt it would have been more. AG kits from morebeer run in the $20-25 range, yet by buying in bulk I'm cutting that in half easily.

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Gotcha. Buying in bulk is what saves you money. If you just bought the kit ingredients separately, it'd cost you $1-2 more per batch.

Go All grain, that will save you the most.

cheezydemon said:

I would not go bulk on DME, you will go to use it(if you are like me) in a month or 2 andfind a block of sweet cement.

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I do all grain, but keep DME around for priming. I put my DME in a ziplock bag, inside of another ziplock bag, and it has lasted forever; with no clumping whatsoever.

As long as you don't get it wet, DME will last far longer than LME. keep it in a cool, dry place...no moisture, no problem.

orfy said:

Go All grain, that will save you the most.

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I'm with orfy, after the initial cost, all grain is much much cheaper... I was spending 40-50 bucks a batch when doing extract. Now we're all grain and the price per batch is around 20-30 dollars. The money we saved per batch doing all grain paid for the equipment in around 5-6 batches (maybe 2 more)....

After you move to all grain the only way i see cutting cost after that would be:

Yeast Harvesting
Grain Mill
Bulk Grains

DeadYetiBrew said:

I'm with orfy, after the initial cost, all grain is much much cheaper... I was spending 40-50 bucks a batch when doing extract. Now we're all grain and the price per batch is around 20-30 dollars. The money we saved per batch doing all grain paid for the equipment in around 5-6 batches (maybe 2 more)....

After you move to all grain the only way i see cutting cost after that would be:

Yeast Harvesting
Grain Mill
Bulk Grains

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Yeah, I think that is about it. All-grain, yeast harvest and bulk grain. Once you do that, I think you are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Well, I guess you could start growing your own hops too, that would save some $ I would imagine.

DeadYetiBrew said:

After you move to all grain the only way i see cutting cost after that would be:

Yeast Harvesting
Grain Mill
Bulk Grains

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And Bulk Hops.

-a.

ajf said:

And Bulk Hops.

-a.

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ah yes sorry, and bulk hops.... then again if you get bullk hops its good to have a vacuum sealer too...

It costs me about $10 per 5 gallon all grain batch. After the startup costs are out of the way, all grain is dirt freakin cheap.

I was just thinking today about the cost of homebrewing so this thread is interesting. When I did extract it cost about 25-30 bucks for me to do a 5 gallon batch. After going all grain it seems to run about the same to do a 10 gallon batch. What I was wondering though, is how many batches does it take to get ahead financially speaking? It cost me about $400-$500 to get my system up and running, what with my three converted kegs, with the built in thermometers, fittings, the propane tanks and the rack itself. Then I needed to get a mill, so I spent $150 for a Crankandstein. There always seems to be a toy you want. I look at it as a hobby, so the expense doesn't really bug me, but I don't know if I can use the economic arguement for why I like to brew. And we're not even factoring the time it takes to get it pouring out of the keg, for if we put a price on our time I really couldn't justify the whole thing. I brew because of the satisfaction, and pleasure, of the end result.
I do have to say though, with all my equipment in place, and a 55 pound bag of base malt purchased last month, it was sure nice to take some harvested yeast, along with a couple bags of hops and some specialty malt, and to brew up Ed's all Cascade APA last weekend for under 10 bucks!

I had more of my HB last night than before. (7) Talk about satisfaction, and I'm still in extract mode, gearing up for AG.....aside from equipment and toys, AG does sound pretty cheap

Simple........
Depending on if you are comparing to buying commercial or brewing an extract. (how you define C)


X = Break Even count
A = Cost of AG set up
B = Cost of a batch
C = Cost of a commercial serving or C = Cost of an extract batch/D
D = Number of servings per batch

Here's my maths.

A = $200
B = $30
C = $4
D = 40 (pints)

X = A/((C*D)-B)

X = 200/((4*40)-30)

X = 200/(160-30)

X = 200/130

X = 1.538

So after 2 batches I'm in front.

So that means the more I brew the more I save!



Forgive me if I've made a mistake I'm 6 hours on from my first drink and 20 years since I did **** like algebra

(why does Safari on a Mac not use the ****ing quote button correctly)

Damn dude, 6 hours! But your math looks correct

orfy said:

Simple........
Depending on if you are comparing to buying commercial or brewing an extract. (how you define C)


X = Break Even count
A = Cost of AG set up
B = Cost of a batch
C = Cost of a commercial serving or C = Cost of an extract batch/D
D = Number of servings per batch

Here's my maths.

A = $200
B = $30
D = 40 (pints)

X = A/((C*D)-B)

X = 200/((4*40)-30)

X = 200/(160-30)

X = 200/130

X = 1.538

So after 2 batches I'm in front.

So that means the more I brew the more I save!



Forgive me if I've made a mistake I'm 6 hours on from my first drink and 20 years since I did **** like algebra

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Hmmm, I think the maths are a tad off. As long as you are comparing 5 gal batch to 5 gal batch (or equivalent) then the number of servings should not enter the equation (because other batch will have same number of servings). Right now you have an extract batch of 5 gal costing you $160 .

So more appropriately we should have:

A: Cost of going All Grain
B: Cost of AG batch
C: Cost of extract batch

A=$200
B=$30
C=$40

Number of batches before breaking even = A/(B-C) = 200/(40-30) = 20

So using those numbers it will take 20 batches to break even.

But let's say that you enter AG "on the cheap" and frugally spend $100 on a AG setup ($40 turkey fryer, $35 for 5 gallon cooler, rest for various expenses), and can make a batch for $25 (as seems a little high of normal)

A=$100
B=$25
C=$40

A/(B-C)=100/(40-25)=6.66 batches.

So you can enter AG and reasonably expect to break even around the 6th or 7th batch. Sooner if your recipes cost less.

I'm sober now......

My gear cost £100
A batch is 40 pints and costs £15
40 pints of commercial is £2x40 = £80
The differential is £80-£15 = £65.
So each time I brew I save £65
So I'm even after 1.5 brews

it depends on what I drink to figure out how much I save, I've got beer ADD....sometimes it's cheap, sometimes it's not

I think the only way to calculate a "break even" point is vs. the cost of comparable commercial beer. If you keep close watch on your costs you can definately come out ahead, but I don't think that's really the point for most homebrewers.

It can be worth keeping track of, though. Brewing in the black (or at least not too far into the red) may prove helpful to your cause during a "discussion" with SWIMBO.

I figured my costs today for the last batch I did, 10 gallons of ordinary bitter. It comes out to 28 cents per 12 oz glass, and I included all my consumables including RO water for starsan, starsan, pbw, whirlflock, and propane, as well as the ingredients for the beer. Most of the beer I like to drink runs me about 2.50/pint or 5-6$ / pint in the pub so I'm coming out way way ahead. At this rate I'll recoup my equipment expenses in a few months. Plus, frankly, the beer is better.