To pay or not to pay. That is my question

Proboscidea said:

Bottles are the gold standard in my world.

This is kind of sad, but I will bring a bunch of my beers over to a friend's house in the hope that they'll drink them and free up more bottles for my precious stockpile.

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I do the same thing. I'm always looking toward the next beer and I have more beers than I can drink by myself, so I bring them to other people's houses to empty them out to hold the next batch. Works out pretty good.

evrose said:

Yeah, um... that doesn't really make it legal.

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I should have been more clear, I was being sarcastic and making fun of the mmj industry... I know you can't legally sell home brew. I wouldn't sell the stuff or ask for money... I might ask them to help out, especially if they're a regular visitor.

The first thing I would do is not post it on a public forum...

Won't take it! Somewhere in the back of my mind is the idea of starting my own brewery. All I need is for someone to inadvertently remark that they buy my home brew and have someone from liquor control over hear the conversation. Tax evasion is something the State and Federal governments take very seriously.

I have had friends give me ammunition, and I have a barber who gives me free haircuts, but I'm sure it isn't because I give them beer....

I would never be able to get a brewing license!

So, as I understand it, there are both Federal and State laws regarding this topic. State laws vary. In general, what I've gathered on HBT is:

1) You can't directly sell beer to anybody without a license.
2) You also can't barter it for goods & services without a license. And the smartypants alcohol control peeps are also onto your clever loophole shenanigans like "selling bottles" that come with "free" beer in them without a license. No dice.
3) And technically, without a license, you can't even give away the stuff for free unless it's on your personal premises. And you can't charge/barter for admission to your premises.
4) God forbid you mail it anywhere. Expect black helicopters to descend on your home and shoot rockets made of flying monkeys that shoot bees out of their mouths at you.

Is that fairly accurate? I'm asking as a not-a-lawyer type.

Seems, then, like the most law-abiding way to garner recompense for your expenditures & labor, should you wish to seek it, is to have your friends pay for the supplies. Then, out of pure coincidence, you may decide, several weeks later and purely out of the goodness of your heart, to invite them over for drinks. If they decide to smuggle some home without your knowledge, it's their butt on the line, not yours.

Or you could make the alcohol on their premises and leave it there, I guess.

Would both of those scenarios pass the by-the-book sniff test?

Does anyone ever actually get busted for this? Short of selling your homebrew to a LEO, it seems like it would be darn near impossible to actually gather enough evidence to prosecute someone for selling homebrew. It doesn't seem worth the effort for local law enforcement or ATF.

Zamial said:

Instead of the "let's skirt legalities" why not:

1) Give your friend a list of the needed ingredients and send him to the LHBS or your favorite online vendor(s) then:

a)brew a batch for them

b)ask them to help you brew the batch, including clean-up.

c)make them brew the batch and assist as needed

d)any of the above and gift your buddy an empty Ale Pail, spray bottle of starsan, a small bung that will plug the grommet/lid for transportation and an airlock. Get the wort to their house and have them pitch the yeast in their basement. Come back in 3 weeks and help the bottle. Have a "tasting/bbq" at their home in 2-3 weeks. Offer to let them use your gear as long as they prearrange the date with you, clean it and bring a full propane tank UNTIL THEY GET THEIR OWN.

????

BTW you can also do that as a timeline...

Give a friend a homebrew and you have a leech for life. Teach a friend to homebrew and get 2x's the beer selection with none of the actual work for life!

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Love this thread.

A wise person once told me to never turn down someone who is offering you money for something or given them or some way you have helped them out. People give people money for doing things for them that they have no direct way to reciprocate for, and in most cases they are doing so to feel better about themselves.

I am super generous with my brew and have never asked for a dime (except I'll give them hell if they don't bring my bottles back). However, If someone offered to pay me for beer I'd given them I'd take it and use it to help me buy grain for the next batch.

The one thing that does bug me a tiny bit is when people nag me for beer to take home with them. I like to drink beer with my friends, so I'd rather they have me bring some over or come to my house and drink with me. Plus my bottles seem to vanish if I don't watch them like a hawk.

downtown3641 said:

Does anyone ever actually get busted for this? Short of selling your homebrew to a LEO, it seems like it would be darn near impossible to actually gather enough evidence to prosecute someone for selling homebrew. It doesn't seem worth the effort for local law enforcement or ATF.

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Exactly...the laws are put into place so that someone can not start a brewery and NOT pay taxes. I don't think TTB, ABC, or your local law enforcement really cares about a homebrewer getting a few bucks for giving away a few beers. Can you imagine how expensive it would be for the gov't to take a case like this to court? Just not worth it....

I never ask for, nor accept money from the folks with whom I share my beer.
Now, if they happen to be traveling through Phoenix and want to bring me back a case of Bell's Two Hearted Ale, or are going to San Diego and insist on bringing back as much PTE, Alpine Duet and Alpine Nelson as they can find, who am I to refuse?? :rockin:

downtown3641 said:

Does anyone ever actually get busted for this? Short of selling your homebrew to a LEO, it seems like it would be darn near impossible to actually gather enough evidence to prosecute someone for selling homebrew. It doesn't seem worth the effort for local law enforcement or ATF.

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Posting about illegal activities on a publicly indexed forum is a good way to provide evidence.

Because Officer Friendly is going to be able to take the time to connect a home brew site, to the one homebrewer he's busted to make his case? This isn't Law and Order, unless your moving quantities it's not worth the time to criminally pursue. Not picking a fight, just saying we aren't worth it.



I give away at least half my beer, 45-55% goes to friends and family- more at the holidays. If I could get half of them to pay for bottles I would be thrilled. Heck, if they gave me bottles to fill my costs would drop so much! I say take the money, this hobby isn't free.

ktblunden said:

Posting about illegal activities on a publicly indexed forum is a good way to provide evidence.

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I am not a cop or lawyer but....I don't think somebody talking about something on an internet forum can be construed as evidence.

Providing a public record of your intent to try to skirt the law can certainly be evidence used against you in the unlikely (note that word) event you are caught. Search for the phrase "selling homebrew" on google. Search results will return HBT as the first result with a number of threads.

All I'm suggesting is using caution and not posting about illegal activities.

Then for the record.....I don't sell homebrew and I don't condone anyone else selling homebrew.

I have never sold homebrew. Couldn't imagine doing so. I have rarely given homebrew to an individual that would drink it without my presence. Only those wo enjoy the craft or understand its labors are so worthy. I feel that it the only people who should be given homebrew for to drink without me are those who have helped me in the fabrication of part of my system, given or bartered me something brewing related, attended a brew day, or someone genuinely interested in the process (and considering getting into it).

One regular dinner guest at my house agreed to try one of my beers. He drank it all and asked for another. He barely drank 1/4th of the second one. Even after he asked for the second one. Won't be giving him anymore for a while, certainly not for him to take home. Unless he wants to pay for the dinner we made him. (Alas! A workaround!)

I have an empty jar near the tap. Sometimes there's money in there randomly. ****ing weird.

Just kidding. I'm actually pretty surprised more of my friends aren't hounding me for beer. Not complaining though.

ktblunden said:

Posting about illegal activities on a publicly indexed forum is a good way to provide evidence.

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That's why I wouldn't post about it. Then again, I wouldn't come to a homebrewing forum for advice and conclusions I'm perfectly capable of coming to using my own logic.

Proboscidea said:

So, as I understand it, there are both Federal and State laws regarding this topic. State laws vary. In general, what I've gathered on HBT is:

1) You can't directly sell beer to anybody without a license.
2) You also can't barter it for goods & services without a license. And the smartypants alcohol control peeps are also onto your clever loophole shenanigans like "selling bottles" that come with "free" beer in them without a license. No dice.
3) And technically, without a license, you can't even give away the stuff for free unless it's on your personal premises. And you can't charge/barter for admission to your premises.
4) God forbid you mail it anywhere. Expect black helicopters to descend on your home and shoot rockets made of flying monkeys that shoot bees out of their mouths at you.

Is that fairly accurate? I'm asking as a not-a-lawyer type.

Seems, then, like the most law-abiding way to garner recompense for your expenditures & labor, should you wish to seek it, is to have your friends pay for the supplies. Then, out of pure coincidence, you may decide, several weeks later and purely out of the goodness of your heart, to invite them over for drinks. If they decide to smuggle some home without your knowledge, it's their butt on the line, not yours.

Or you could make the alcohol on their premises and leave it there, I guess.

Would both of those scenarios pass the by-the-book sniff test?

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It is my understanding that in MI you can gift 20 gallons / person / year.

roadymi said:

It is my understanding that in MI you can gift 20 gallons / person / year.

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You are correct.

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes/michigan

From my reading that is my understanding as well.

ajlee said:

You are correct.

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes/michigan

From my reading that is my understanding as well.

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Thanks, that is the same article I had read but I couldn't remember where I had seen it. Old age sucks

kevinb said:

I thought this would be a good conversation starter. As I am sure most of you do, I like to give some of my home brews to friends. Last time I did so, one friend really liked a paticular beer and asked for more. He offered to give me some money to cover my supplies. So what is the "right" thing to do. Just give him more or take his money.

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I did that too, some time ago. I gave a buddy some Nut Brown Ale and he liked it. I made a batch for him and he offered to pay.

In your case, I would offer one batch and see where it goes. If he asks for more after that first 'nice gesture' batch, politely bring up the idea that making beer does cost you money. I bet he'll respond positively.

Phunhog said:

Then for the record.....I don't sell homebrew and I don't condone anyone else selling homebrew.

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Good thing...this thread is probably bait for the ATF.....

I see nothing wrong with taking money from a friend to brew up something he wants brewed. At least paying for the ingredients. I love to brew, my buddy knows this. He wanted a clone for a stout he couldn't find anywhere. He said if I found a recipe, he'd pay for the ingredients. I made him go with me to the LHBS and help me measure out the grains and crush them. That way, there's an appreciation that the beer doesn't magically make itself. I also sent him pics of his brew in process so he knows there's some effort involved on my part as well. I get to keep half of it, according to him, so I win.

My understanding is that, in Oregon, you can trade beer for other beer and wine, and you can trade beer for other beer brewing ingredients or equipment. This is per that law that passed last November.

I know mostly mooches, and I call them out for it. That's why I have very few friends. And I am okay with that.

Once you start to pick up on moochspeak and their mannerisms you can pick them out of a crowd. Key things to NEVER say in front of a mooch:

"It's illegal to sell this." (which means it's free to them and you can't take their money)

"I think I enjoy brewing as much as I do drinking" (they are doing you a favor and bringing you enjoyment by drinking your beer so you can make more. You actually owe them for doing it, so thank them you ingrate bastid!)

"I just like to see people appreciating my beer" (compliments, whether sincere or not, are payment enough)

"It's cheaper to make it than it is at the store" (meant for that particular style, not making PTE in comparison to natural light. But in their minds it is; so almost no cost at all)

"A lot of work goes into making it" (irrelevant; it is a hobby so you do it cause you enjoy it. They would never dream of doing it themselves, because drinking your free beer is their hobby. And if your free beer isn't up for grabs, that case of natty light is just a convenience store away)

I would never take straight cash. However, you could always have them bring as many empty bottles as they want beer, and bring over the propane. Heck, if they bring over the whole tank, they can understand a little about having your bottles make it back to you.

My friends, in general, don't want things completely free from other friends. They just don't have much to barter with on this, so they offer money. I would do the same thing in their shoes. They just don't realize the joy we get in just hearing others loving our brew. That, and the wife not yelling at us for keeping 200 bottles of full beer that we really won't drink because we are waiting for our other beer to come out.

ong said:

My understanding is that, in Oregon, you can trade beer for other beer and wine, and you can trade beer for other beer brewing ingredients or equipment. This is per that law that passed last November.

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I didn't realize this.

Don't take this the wrong way ong but I think I'll have to check this out before I take somebodys word on the internet. Do you happen to have a link? Nevermind, I can do a search.

Diaperload said:

I didn't realize this.

Don't take this the wrong way ong but I think I'll have to check this out before I take somebodys word on the internet. Do you happen to have a link? Nevermind, I can do a search.

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http://www.leg.state.or.us/11reg/measures/sb0400.dir/sb0444.intro.html

Found it. Read it.

I've never had an interest in a bill, never bothered to read one. However, if it's about beer all bets are off.

Great news that I was unaware of.

Clean label free bottles are the best way for someone to "pay" for your beer. When I give a bottle as a gift the first time, I tell they have to return the empties to get a refill.

I also like the idea of inviting a friend over to help on brew day. There is a fair amount of down time and brew day is a great excuse to drink a few.

I would never ask for money for the beer I give away, and my friends have never asked for money for the pot they give me.
I now have 4 stainless steel pots!
My county is so broke they can't go after the tweekers, I doubt they will be at my door if someone gave me $20 toward my expenses. Which so far no one has offered. Ungrateful pr*cks. Now I mostly brew beers that most of my BMC friends and family think are "Too heavy, too much after taste", you know like amber & brown ales, & porters.
Hold on there's some one at the door,

Some of my close friends who really like my beer will buy grain for me to brew them their own batch. I don't charge for my time, equipment, or extra tasks involved. The one catch is I usually tag a little extra on and just brew a bigger batch so I have some as well. Luckily I work at a bar and save all the usable bottles at the end of the night so I actually have too many. I really try though to get these friends to come brew with me as well though so they can see the time and effort and get stoked on the hobby and just how easy it is to do for themselves.