Online brewing supply must have cure for cancer!

So today I decided to brew my American IPA kit I got from Williams Brewing Supply. I have never ordered supplies off the internet, rather preferring to give my business to my LHBS - but I have been trying to track down a metalic "house" flavor - so I decided to get the ingredients from another supplier to eliminate possible stale LME and hops.

Everything looked good about the company - nice catalog, decent prices, good selections - and the shipping was first class (they shipped the ingredients with a reusable frozen pack to keep it as cool as possible as long as possible) - I was pretty impressed. Opened the ingredients, the malt looked good, the hops smelled very fresh, and the liquid yeast puffed up in less than a day - good there. So - like almost every other homebrewer on the planet, I like to keep a log of brews (ingredients, amounts, gravities, etc.) and I could not find a list of ingedients on the Williams packaging - so I called up there customer service to see what was in the kit for my log. Here is where it got "funny".

They would not tell me what they used - not the malt, not the hops, not the variety, not the alpha acids - not even the amounts (besides 8 lbs. of malt that was listed). Oh come on people - it isn't like you have a corner on the market for beermaking ingredients (hops, malt, yeast...), and I already bought it anyway. I explained, since it was a food product, I should be able to see what goes in it - nope! It is like they have a cure for cancer or something!

Well - maybe they are all like this, but I find it odd a company that caters to homebrewers, do not want to seem to help homebrewers... Any online companies that don't feel their ingredients are a matter of national security I can switch to?

While collaboration is more prevalent in the brewing industry, their still has to be some withholding of information. If they gave you everything you could pretty much clone the kit, post the recipe and then never buy the kit again. If the information you had became too widespread, then it would affect business.

I've never seen anyone do that before. I mean, I can understand their concern over people stealing their recipe and no longer needing to buy the kits, but you instead just come across like a paranoid *****ie.

I know for a fact that Austin HomeBrew Supply tells you what in the kit via a paper included with the kit. They don't disclose it on there website but once you buy it you have the recipe.

I guess it's their prerogative to keep the info hush hush but it's also your prerogative to buy elsewhere.

This is one of the reasons why I won't buy AG kits (unless of course they're willing to share the details). I'll find a recipe and put it together myself. I want to know what goes into a beer so I can learn from the process.

Evan! said:

I've never seen anyone do that before. I mean, I can understand their concern over people stealing their recipe and no longer needing to buy the kits, but you instead just come across like a paranoid *****ie.

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Am I the *****ie? I'm just trying to give the OP a reason why they might not want to share their information, not trying to defend them.

Mabye I should have worded my original response differently.

McKBrew said:

Am I the *****ie? I'm just trying to give the OP a reason why they might not want to share their information, not trying to defend them.

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Yes you are.

There's no way I'd brew a kit without being able to put it into beersmith. I like having my calculations and numbers so I can get a consistent product, and without a recipe that's just not going to happen.

I would never order from that company again.

Northern Brewer shows you everything in the kit.
MoreBeer shows you everything in the kit.

It is really RARE to get a kit where the ingredients are not listed. Go just about anywhere else, and you will get an indredient list.

The Pol

Yup Austin Home Brew tells you whats in their kits. Northern Brewer goes as far as telling you on their website. Example

McKBrew said:

Am I the *****ie? I'm just trying to give the OP a reason why they might not want to share their information, not trying to defend them.

Mabye I should have worded my original response differently.

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I was referring to williams brewing. You hadn't posted your reply yet, so I wasn't addressing you. Not saying you're a *****ie, just saying that there are plenty of places that are liberal with their info, and for williams to do that really makes me lose respect for them. Like I said in my first post, I understand their desire to keep their recipes from becoming public knowledge, but like others have pointed out here, many other, bigger providers are liberal with their recipes and you don't see them dying off.

McKBrew said:

While collaboration is more prevalent in the brewing industry, their still has to be some withholding of information. If they gave you everything you could pretty much clone the kit, post the recipe and then never buy the kit again. If the information you had became too widespread, then it would affect business.

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I hear what you are saying, and I am sure that is the reason - but if I wanted to clone it - I would be making my own anyway and not buying their kit. People "usually" buy a kit for convienence and standardization of product quality.

It is good to hear there are other companies that enjoy the art and don't feel threatened to share their ingredients. Not bashing Williams - like I said, their ingredients and shipping seem first class - but all said I would rather give my business to companies that remember WHY they got into the business in the first place.

DD2000GT said:

I hear what you are saying, and I am sure that is the reason - but if I wanted to clone it - I would be making my own anyway and not buying their kit. People "usually" buy a kit for convienence and standardization of product quality.

It is good to hear there are other companies that enjoy the art and don't feel threatened to share their ingredients. Not bashing Williams - like I said, their ingredients and shipping seem first class - but all said I would rather give my business to companies that remember WHY they got into the business in the first place.

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I agree totally, buy the kit somewhere else. I read an article in the newest issue of BYO that talked about how much work goes into the development of a commercial clone kit and was thinking more along those lines when I typed my response. Withholding information on something that is just a standard pale ale recipe for example, is as Evan! stated "*****ie"

I hate the idea that some kits are kept a secret but it makes sense from a business stand point. One time I bought a dry stout kit and it ended up scoring a 39 and a 40 in a competition. It was phenomenal. Unfortunately I have no idea what the specifics were so I won't be able to brew it again. It pissed me off so much that was the last kit I ever bought. Later on I found Midwest Supplies and Northern Brewer and noticed they list their ingredients but I was already making my own recipes or brewing ones from books or online.

I usually try to formulate my own recipes, but when I buy kits I always buy from Northern Brewer. The fact that they show the entire inventory for each kit gives me peace of mind knowing exactly what I'm getting for my money. Plus, I often take a kit and add to it. If I want a little more ABV, I'll add another pound of extract, or I'll add another ounce of hops for dry hopping. If I don't know the contents of the kit or the recipe ahead of time I can't really do this.

I would avoid buying from a homebrew company that kept their recipes this much of a secret. Heck my lhbs keeps theirs printed on the front of the boxes on the shelf right next to to bulk extract and grains. Yes it takes a lot to come up with a recipe but the good homebrew shops realize that the kits are more about helping their customer learn the art than about keeping them locked in. Plus there are tons of award wining recipes available free over the internet.

CatchinZs said:

I know for a fact that Austin HomeBrew Supply tells you what in the kit via a paper included with the kit. They don't disclose it on there website but once you buy it you have the recipe.

I guess it's their prerogative to keep the info hush hush but it's also your prerogative to buy elsewhere.

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Since we have the most award winning recipes and clone kits available, (over 700 kits!) we just don't want to be a recipe database for other stores that can't create their own recipes. We gladly share our recipes with homebrewers. I realise that once you have the recipe you can order it from anyone, but we would hope that you buy a kit from us at least once.

Forrest

Austinhomebrew said:

Since we have the most award winning recipes and clone kits available, (over 700 kits!) we just don't want to be a recipe database for other stores that can't create their own recipes. We gladly share our recipes with homebrewers. I realise that once you have the recipe you can order it from anyone, but we would hope that you buy a kit from us at least once.

Forrest

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Hey - I am new to online suppliers (Williams being my first in over 6 years of brewing), but I am a fellow Texan as well and would gladly give my business to a company that remembers why they got into the homebrew supply business in the first place.

Austinhomebrew said:

Since we have the most award winning recipes and clone kits available, (over 700 kits!) we just don't want to be a recipe database for other stores that can't create their own recipes. We gladly share our recipes with homebrewers. I realise that once you have the recipe you can order it from anyone, but we would hope that you buy a kit from us at least once.

Forrest

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This is definitely understandable, but I do have to say that the fact that I can't see what the recipe is in the kit before I buy has made me hesitant to buy from you. It's not that I don't trust that your kits are good, I just like knowing what I'm getting before I buy it.

Instead I've been buying from midwest which has a few things going for it that I prefer. I can see the whole recipe on their online store, they're a 15 minute drive for me, and they have a nice little program where if I buy 10 kits, I get one free (it's a punch card thing so it might just be in-store.)

I have been very curious about trying some of the AHB kits though, and I'll probably buy one at some point.

Loup said:

This is definitely understandable, but I do have to say that the fact that I can't see what the recipe is in the kit before I buy has made me hesitant to buy from you. It's not that I don't trust that your kits are good, I just like knowing what I'm getting before I buy it.

Instead I've been buying from midwest which has a few things going for it that I prefer. I can see the whole recipe on their online store, they're a 15 minute drive for me, and they have a nice little program where if I buy 10 kits, I get one free (it's a punch card thing so it might just be in-store.)

I have been very curious about trying some of the AHB kits though, and I'll probably buy one at some point.

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If you email us we can provide more info. We just don't want other stores to use us as a recipe database since we have over 700 kits.

Forrest

Man that punch card sounds like a great deal!

Brewer's best kits list their ingredients as well (you can even download the pdf files from the LD carlson website)...I learned a lot about recipe formulation by imputing the info into beercalculus...

I brew a few recipes that are based on the original brewer's best sheets.