My brewing fantasy...

Of course, at some point, the idea of opening a brewpub crosses every homebrewer's mind. With most people, that idea quickly gives way to the realities- the need for a business model, the need for trained management staff, the need to hire servers and bartenders, and purchasing expensive equipment. It's not just a brewery, it's a brewery, restaurant, and business! It's a lot of work. And it's a 6 day-a-week (at least), 18 hours a day job when you start. I know I wouldn't really be interested in that.

Awhile back, somebody posted a link to a site that indicated that the cost of a brewpub liquor license in Arizona is only like $150 a year. So then I got to thinking...

What if, instead of a brewpub, you just sold beer out of an old train car or an industrial park? Your cost would be your equipment and ingredients, you would only be open maybe one or two days a month. You would sell your beer, start another batch, and then go home for the rest of the month.

Sure, you'd need to hire someone to come in once every few days, check on things, etc., but that wouldn't be so bad.

Then, again, reality set in and I realized that I wouldn't really care for even doing that much work by myself. No, this is definitely the kind of thing that would require partners.

So... I was thinking... how cool would this be? A bunch of people throw in a few thousand dollars. You convene once every 5 weeks in Arizona (or any other destination with generous brewpub laws), you brew a huge batch, you take a few gallons of finished beer for yourself, you sell the rest to the public (legal with your brewpub license) and use the money to reimburse your expenses and then with whatever's left, you buy more equipment and grow the operation. In addition, you have a rotation- maybe twice a year, each member meets up with another member and makes an extra trip out to the brewery to do "light duty" transferring the beer to secondary, or whatever else has to be done in the periods between when the group meets.

Let's face it. 80% of brewing is really just waiting for it to finish. I think this could be a fun way of brewing, making a sort of "for profit" club.


Of course, this is just a silly wild idea... but I thought I'd throw it out there since I've been thinking about it for quite awhile....

Doesn't a brewpub license require that there be food served on premesis? Sounds fun, though!

you could sell hot dogs and burgers and it would be considered a brew pub.

it would be all ages, too.

Does the brewpub license allow you to sell bottled beer/kegs or just on premises? If it's just beer on premises then I guess you could just throw a big party once every few months.....get some bands or maybe play movies outside...

Could be cool, really cool. I'd go there.

If I had a few thousand dollars I'd invest in that too.....

greenhornet said:

Does the brewpub license allow you to sell bottled beer/kegs or just on premises? If it's just beer on premises then I guess you could just throw a big party once every few months.....get some bands or maybe play movies outside...

Could be cool, really cool. I'd go there.

If I had a few thousand dollars I'd invest in that too.....

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Most of the brewpubs I'm familiar with in Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Michigan all allow you to buy bottled beer on premises. I assume kegs sold on premises for consumption elsewhere would be ok too.. but then you get into the problem of having to do returns and deposits. Therefore, I'd probably think that mini-kegs would be ideal.

Less bottling that way too!!!

So you could buy bottled/minikeg beer and take it home? thats what I'm sorta getting at....

most brewpubs i've seen you can buy beer to take home. monkey head was always my favorite...at triple rock in berkeley. you get 10 stamps and you get a free t-shirt and get to take home the 10th bottle

Allows the licensee of a microbrewery to manufacture or produce not less than 5,000 gallons of beer in each calendar year following the first year of operation and not more than 620,000 gallons of beer in a calendar year.

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You going to sell more than 5k gallons a year? And its a bit more than $150 a year. Plus I think if you are selling and manufacturing on the premises, you may need industrial or commercial property.Not sure if you can get around that.

My idea is a little different.

1. Find a brewpub you really like
2. Fill out a job application

Hell, if I thought there was good upward mobility potential with a winning establishment, I'd start out with a huge pay cut and come in as a janitor or something for a few months to get my foot in the door (I will NOT work the food service side though, just like I will NOT ever work retail... BTDT, never again!) Share enough pints and ideas with the brewing staff while earning your chops, and you could have your dream job without ever having to stick your neck out on the overhead costs.

SixFoFalcon said:

you could have your dream job without ever having to stick your neck out on the overhead costs.

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But where's the fun in that?

greenhornet said:

But where's the fun in that?

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exactly, either I will own my own place or I will keep my current job

greenhornet said:

But where's the fun in that?

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Hey, you'd be getting paid to make beer! Don't get greedy now!

True.....but it's not YOUR beer

Chimone said:

You going to sell more than 5k gallons a year? And its a bit more than $150 a year. Plus I think if you are selling and manufacturing on the premises, you may need industrial or commercial property.Not sure if you can get around that.

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It's a brewpub license. Yes, you probably need industrial/commercial property, however, since you're only open once or twice a month, you don't need some fancy storefront property. Warehouse property would work. A lot of warehouses are zoned for commercial/industrial, would fit the bill perfectly.

Anybody ever been to Three Floyds? That's the perfect example of a brewpub that is off the beaten path. It's close to major streets, but it's in a industrial complex. You just kinda gotta know where it is in order to find it... but pretty much everybody knows where it is.

Chimone said:

You going to sell more than 5k gallons a year? And its a bit more than $150 a year. Plus I think if you are selling and manufacturing on the premises, you may need industrial or commercial property.Not sure if you can get around that.

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5K gallons a year? There's a smaller license than that... I'm pretty sure...

Are you talking about a brewery license? I'm talking about a brewpub license.

Yeah, Three Floyds is like a warehouse with a nice pub up front. I thought I had bad directions when I went. The beer is the destination.

Two Bros. in Warrenville, IL is expanding into a bigger warehouse. Its also in a little industrial strip. They have a homebrew supply shop already and they're building in a brewpub. They're tracking their progress on their site. Can't wait to go visit the brewpub this fall. Great beer and great people over there.

www.twobrosbrew.com

Damn Squirrels said:

5K gallons a year? There's a smaller license than that... I'm pretty sure...

Are you talking about a brewery license? I'm talking about a brewpub license.

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check your PMs

Chimone said:

check your PMs

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Well, Chimone, by your PM it appears that it is actually $700 for the first year ($370 thereafter). That's clearly more than the $150 I was thinking of... maybe I was thinking of another state?

ON THE OTHER HAND... That permit you linked to, the one for a microbrewery, does allow the holder to sell to distributors, as well as on-premises. That means you can get distribution (in theory)....

All the better for getting up to the necessary 5,000 gallons.


It would still be a heck of a lot of fun, IMHO. And besides, if your microbrewery only broke even for a few years, but you got to say that you owned it and really had a say in how it was run, well then, that would be a pretty cool thing.

I would imagine the group would have "competitions" where everybody would brew the same style of beer and the winner, as judged by the membership, would be the beer that was brewed...

yep you sure can distribute yourself with that license. but then not only are you running a business and brewing the beer, but now you are distributing as well. It can be done yes, but you're not going to have much time for anything else.

But then again, if all your time is spent making and selling beer, is it really a bad thing?

Damn Squirrels (in another thread) said:

Well, I tightened my rollers and presoaked. Mashed at 155 degrees.

55% efficiency.

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DS - We're gonna put you in charge of the mash process.....

Sorry, just got off another post and couldn't resist.

So let's say your target is 5,000 gallons. Figure 48 batches a year (4 per month). You'd need Four three-barrel systems.

LOL Think about it!!! You could use Anheuser-Busch kegs as your fermenters!!! (Oohhh the irony and the illegality!!! don't fight against my ridiculous idea here.. I'm fully aware of how ridiculous this is... just play along... mmmmkay?) You'd only need about 6 AB kegs per "system" (plus headspace of course). So.. 24 Kegs as primaries... another 24 as secondaries, and as long as you keep them full, you will be able to hit your 5,000 gallons a year.

But now, of course, you need to SELL this beer. Well let's look at that...

It's about $2.00 per gallon in ingredients (in bulk). That's roughly twenty cents per beer. That's a six pack for $1.20. You also have to pay for the warehouse space. Figure $500 a month, which is another $1.20 per six pack. Total of $2.40 per six pack


Now, remember, this is a hobby first, business venture second. You are selling six-packs... out the door... for $1.20. Breaking even. You don't think you would have trucks PULLING UP to buy 6 packs at $2.40?

Now, bottling is a PITA. Maybe pay bottlers $1 per six pack to sanitize and bottle. Ok. Now the dirty work is being done for us and we're selling beer for $3.40 per six pack. That's still cheap.

At those prices, you could sell all the beer you could make, even if it sucked!!!! (and it wouldn't suck)

BierMuncher said:

DS - We're gonna put you in charge of the mash process.....

Sorry, just got off another post and couldn't resist.

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Touche!!!!

I could be in charge of legal issues and drinking!!!! Could draft agreements, negotiate prices, etc... And of course, pitch in like everybody else on brew days, beer sale days, etc.

Let's leave mashing up to somebody who knows how to get it right.... but maybe I could get some pointers...

greenhornet said:

True.....but it's not YOUR beer

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I respectfully disagree. If I'm the one making it, I can take pride and credit for it.

Now if someone wants to make me a cog in the machinery and not let me have any control over how that product comes out, then you'd be right. But once you get up in the ranks at a brewery, you play a pretty big part in how the beer tastes. Even if you are constrained by a particular style/variety, there are still mucho variables that you control. Business is business, and no matter whether you are going it alone or working under someone else, you are eventually going to be forced to make what sells. Personally, I'd rather let someone else figure out the books and the food side of the house and run the risk of a volatile/unreceptive market bankrupting them. If it seems to be a working, prosperous business, then I'd have no problem joining the team.

Damn Squirrels said:

You also have to pay for the warehouse space. Figure $500 a month, which is another $1.20 per six pack. Total of $2.40 per six pack

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IN AZ, that might pay for a month of utilities.

olllllo said:

IN AZ, that might pay for a month of utilities.

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What utilities? A "cool room" kept at 67 degrees to ferment in?

A warehouse whose lights you turn on 3 times a month?

Maybe, maybe, a lagering area kept down quite a bit colder (but only seldom opened).

It's not like a house where you have people going in and out all of the time and are trying to keep the entire area temperature-controlled 24/7...


Besides, I'm sure there are other venues besides AZ. I'm not a big fan of deserts anyway....

Damn Squirrels said:

Besides, I'm sure there are other venues besides AZ. I'm not a big fan of deserts anyway....

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oh dear lord, you know you used to be cool

Damn Squirrels said:

What utilities? A "cool room" kept at 67 degrees to ferment in?

A warehouse whose lights you turn on 3 times a month?

Maybe, maybe, a lagering area kept down quite a bit colder (but only seldom opened).

It's not like a house where you have people going in and out all of the time and are trying to keep the entire area temperature-controlled 24/7...

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After you've won the Nobel Prize in Fizzics, what other thermodynamic wizardry will be employed?

As for AZ, I was just going off your example.

olllllo said:

After you've won the Nobel Prize in Fizzics, what other thermodynamic wizardry will be employed?

As for AZ, I was just going off your example.

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I'm looking for issues that would kill the deal... not ones that are off by a little bit here or there...

SixFoFalcon said:

M Share enough pints and ideas with the brewing staff while earning your chops, and you could have your dream job without ever having to stick your neck out on the overhead costs.

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Depends on your definition of a dream job. Owning a successful one making mid 6 figures a year is my dream job.

The idea is definately interesting but I would imagine that you would be paying more than $500 a month for warehouse space.

Damn Squirrels said:

Anybody ever been to Three Floyds? That's the perfect example of a brewpub that is off the beaten path. It's close to major streets, but it's in a industrial complex. You just kinda gotta know where it is in order to find it... but pretty much everybody knows where it is.

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Same thing goes for Victory Brewpub. The first time you are bound to miss it. Its located in a industrial park. The building used to be part of the Pepperidge Farms plant I believe.

EdWort said:

Depends on your definition of a dream job. Owning a successful one making mid 6 figures a year is my dream job.

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No reason why you couldn't strike out on your own after spending time working the industry under someone else's reins! I just hate to watch people succumb to "owner's syndrome" (as Anthony Bourdain puts it).

Here come the barrels, 1 2 3.
It's all part of my fantasy.
I love to see the Beer
And I love to see the Ales.
Served by hottie bar chicks,
And ringin' up the sales.....yea

Here come the haters, one by one.
olllllo's callin' but you're having fun.
You find a warehouse with free utilities.
The devil's in the details, but you've got him on his knees.

It's all part of my brewery fantasy.
It's all part of my brewery dream.
It's all part of my brewery fantasy.
It's all part of my brewery dream.

Put out the tappers, one and all,
And let the feelin'get down to your soul.
The beer is so good, you can feel the IBUs
Reaching for the maltiness in each and every brew.

It's all part of my brewery fantasy.
It's all part of my brewery dream.
It's all part of my brewery fantasy.
It's all part of my brewery dream.

ROTFLMAO

you could just be open to the pubilc a few days a week... like thurs-saturday.. brew every week on sunday... kinda like a religious expirence.. and you would have a new/diffrent beer to offer every thurdsay when you opend.. have 6 or 7 batches going a week or so apart..
Then Monday -wed you could work on distributing to other stores for selling.. sounds like a good plan... if you wanted to come to VT I could help... have to get Jester's lady to be a waitress.. I know a bunch of the liquor control guys so we can get the proper licences taken care of... Wish I had the time and start up capitol.. I could be all over it

SpamDog

SpamDog said:

you could just be open to the pubilc a few days a week... like thurs-saturday.. brew every week on sunday... kinda like a religious expirence.. and you would have a new/diffrent beer to offer every thurdsay when you opend.. have 6 or 7 batches going a week or so apart..
Then Monday -wed you could work on distributing to other stores for selling.. sounds like a good plan... if you wanted to come to VT I could help... have to get Jester's lady to be a waitress.. I know a bunch of the liquor control guys so we can get the proper licences taken care of... Wish I had the time and start up capitol.. I could be all over it

SpamDog

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Exactly... there's a LOT of legal issues there. Also a lot of startup issues. Seems to me that the "for-profit brewclub" model is pretty appealing. You get to brew- something you would do for free. You get to charge money for it- something that is kinda tricky to do. And you get to hold down a "real" job in case things don't work out. What's not to get excited about?

SpamDog said:

you could just be open to the pubilc a few days a week... like thurs-saturday.. brew every week on sunday... kinda like a religious expirence.. and you would have a new/diffrent beer to offer every thurdsay when you opend.. have 6 or 7 batches going a week or so apart..
Then Monday -wed you could work on distributing to other stores for selling.. sounds like a good plan... if you wanted to come to VT I could help... have to get Jester's lady to be a waitress.. I know a bunch of the liquor control guys so we can get the proper licences taken care of... Wish I had the time and start up capitol.. I could be all over it

SpamDog

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Well, I have the law degree... charters, bylaws, incorporation, etc, wouldn't be too tough for me. Get everybody a fair shake. Then get somebody who knows who to talk to... get somebody who knows how to brew commercially... get a few knuckleheads who think this is a good idea... and just make sure the state's laws aren't too restrictive... it would be a manageable thing...

Here ya go Squirrels. I am a lawyer as well. We could set up a law practice with a brewery in the back (with a steady supply of DUI clients . . . its called vertical marketing). I seem to have plenty of time screwing around on this message board during the workday so I could simply brew beer instead. In fact I could probably dicate most of my work while brewing so it is feasible that we could have law clients paying us by the hour while we brew. This is really coming together!

I believe you also need a Federal BATF license of some sort for commercial alcohol production, although I don't know if there's a lower limit on its being required.

-D

Matt Foley said:

(with a steady supply of DUI clients . . . its called vertical marketing).

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lol

now thats just plain wrong