Can someone explain how...

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It would be more helpful if you could take a single photograph of two small glasses of each next to one another and illuminated from behind e.g. put the light source over your shoulder, put a white piece of paper in front of you and put the beer glasses between you and the paper. [EDIT] Make sure the flash is disabled.[/EDIT] This will insure that none of the effects I illustrated in #39 are responsible for differences in the colors of the beers as seen in the photo.

Now it appears that the two samples are not the same beer but the same "essential beer". There are lots of reasons why two beers that are "essentially" the same can be different in color and, as you can see from #39, why samples of the same beer can appear to be different in color. Let's try to eliminate the latter.
 
I did my own test last night with iodine and iodized salt in samples of a berliner weisse (mine). The salt (as expected) did nothing but cause it to froth quite a bit. The iodine did discolor the beer a reddish hue (also expected), but not to the extent shown in the OPs pic.
 
I will sit here and guarantee you that the phenomenon we're seeing in the OP is NOT due to light refraction.

I don't have time for this right now. I'll be back.

TB
 
The OP has confirmed that he uses iodophor to sanitize, so there may have been some residue in the keg. On top of that, the salt may have been iodized salt. I would like to see the side by side, same style glass pics. But I'm confident that the OP is being honest and not just pulling an optical illusion on us. I don't think he would have taken a pic of the color discrepancy if it wasn't visually apparent.

Also, the argument that I- needs an oxidizing reagent to become I2 is valid. But the presumption that the beer is in a reduced state is not necessarily true.

The color is more of a light burgundy, reddish purple. In an iodine test you would see a deep blueish purple. But this is a 5 gallon batch of beer with many other contributing factors to the color, not a 1mL test on a white saucer.
 
Heres some more photographs for people to see. I even used 2 different glasses so you can see the effect

ry%3D400


ry%3D400


ry%3D400


ry%3D400


As for the person saying the "essentially" the same beer could possibly make a difference...adding an extra .25oz of hops with 1oz of coriander and .5oz of salt should not change the color profile. Ive brewed this before. The beer in the glass should be lighter than the beer in the carboy because there is less density of liquid. The color should only be around 2.5L.
 
The OP has confirmed that he uses iodophor to sanitize, so there may have been some residue in the keg. On top of that, the salt may have been iodized salt. I would like to see the side by side, same style glass pics. But I'm confident that the OP is being honest and not just pulling an optical illusion on us. I don't think he would have taken a pic of the color discrepancy if it wasn't visually apparent.

Also, the argument that I- needs an oxidizing reagent to become I2 is valid. But the presumption that the beer is in a reduced state is not necessarily true.

The color is more of a light burgundy, reddish purple. In an iodine test you would see a deep blueish purple. But this is a 5 gallon batch of beer with many other contributing factors to the color, not a 1mL test on a white saucer.

sea salt. I dont use anything in my house other than sea salt or kosher salt so it isnt that. If there was any iodophor residue in the keg it was minimal and I dont overuse the iodophor like Ive seen some people do. There may have been an ounce at best of liquid. Ive always used it and never had this issue before and Ive been brewing 4 years. Thats why Im so confused by all of this.

As for the purple I mentioned earlier in my posts, its not so much when you are looking in the glass as it is when I dump it down my white sink drain. Thats when it looks purplish. Maybe just a touch in regular light but once you illuminate it, it takes on the brownish hue
 
OP what was the color before you kegged? was it similar to the carboy? And the flavor is ok correct?

BTW, brown is less confusing to me than purple or similar - the head is white. When I pour a framboise lambic (leidmanns) the head is a light purple matching the beer.
 
While I took refraction off the table in #14 I'm putting it back on as it is pretty clear that refraction is partially responsible for what appears in OP's second photograph. The globular glass serves as a lens which images something dark (i.e. not the wall visible in the photo) onto the camera lens though the image is, obviously, not in focus. Hence the beer appears dark because he has photographed some part of the bathroom (probably the floor) which does not receive any light from the flash. Certainly it is not the image of the wall behind the glass because the beer is much darker and a different color from the wall.

At http://www.pbase.com/image/136989737 I have posted a similar flash photograph which illustrates how this works. The white bar on the top simulates the foam on the beer which had collapsed by the time I realized how this works. That's there in order to force the camera to adjust gamma to fit the whole histogram between the rails just as it would do with real foam. The real foam is against the rail in OP's photo and the synthetic foam is against the rail in mine. As with the photos I posted yesterday I actually recorded a NEF and then had Photoshop do what a less sophisticated camera would do i.e. tweak gamma until both the darkest part of the picture and the "foam" fit between the A/D rails.

It is clear in my photo that the goblet is not imaging either the windows which nor the parts of the garage door panels behind it because both of those are lighter than the beer. Thus the bright light from the windows is refracted by the beer into some other part of the room. At the same time more feeble light from some dark part of the room is refracted by the beer so that it hits the camera lens. Changing the position of the camera so that it captures the window light obviously changes the brightness and color of the beer. This can be seen by pressing the "Next" button at pbase or going to http://www.pbase.com/agamid/image/136990074. It is even possible to make out some details of the structure of the room image in this latter photo though I can't identify these objects i.e. I can't tell whether the lightest parts are the actual door lights or the patches of light cast by them onto the floor.

So it turns out refraction is very much a part of the explanation for the dark color of the beer in the glass. Note: This is the same 12.7 SRM beer as in the photos I posted yesterday.

Now of course it is also possible that OP's beer in the glass is in fact also darker or lighter than the beer in the carboy. We won't know whether that's the case if and until he puts up the picture I requested in an earlier post. But that would only be part of the story. As I said way back when here the color one sees (or the color that is recorded in a photograph) depends on the the thickness of beer through which the light passes, the coloring matter in the beer and the color quality of the light which passes through the beer. This latter is determined by whatever part of the surrounding room is imaged through the glass at the camera lens. Also, as stated way back when, any light scattered from yeast cells in the container, dew on the glass surface... will add to the transmitted light and add to the total light reaching the eye or camera. This will make beer with suspended yeast look lighter than it would when it is bright.

I doubt this will convince everyone but at least I am now satisfied that I fully understand what is going on here and may, thus, be better able to explain it.
 
Heres some more photographs for people to see. I even used 2 different glasses so you can see the effect

You've done just about everything except what I need for you to do in order for me to see what the actual colors of the beers are relative one to the other and that is put small samples in identical glasses in front of a white piece of paper (or in front of a light table if you have one) and take a non flash photograph. To do this in a lab I would put the samples in a cuvet, pop them into a photometer and measure the transmission at a particular wave length. If a sample were turbid, I would centrifuge it (and it's pretty clear from the photo of the carboy that the beer is turbid - as explained earlier that is, at least in part, why it looks lighter). Clearly you don't have a photometer so the next best thing is to get me a photo as requested and I can at least look at the blue channel and get an idea what is going on.


As for the person saying the "essentially" the same beer could possibly make a difference...adding an extra .25oz of hops with 1oz of coriander and .5oz of salt should not change the color profile. Ive brewed this before. The beer in the glass should be lighter than the beer in the carboy because there is less density of liquid. The color should only be around 2.5L.

I've been brewing for many years and never made a beer as light as 2.5L. A home brewer just can't do it. More to the point, I brew the same beers over and over again and there is always some variability in color. We, as home brewers, cannot control our materials or our process closely enough to hit the same SRM every time.
 
It would be more helpful if you could take a single photograph of two small glasses of each next to one another and illuminated from behind e.g. put the light source over your shoulder, put a white piece of paper in front of you and put the beer glasses between you and the paper. [EDIT] Make sure the flash is disabled.[/EDIT] This will insure that none of the effects I illustrated in #39 are responsible for differences in the colors of the beers as seen in the photo.

Now it appears that the two samples are not the same beer but the same "essential beer". There are lots of reasons why two beers that are "essentially" the same can be different in color and, as you can see from #39, why samples of the same beer can appear to be different in color. Let's try to eliminate the latter.

is this better?

ry%3D400
 
He is asking for one glass of the gose, and one glass of the berliner weisse. It would be best to put them into glasses that are the same shape and size, and with the same lighting and background.
 
I strive mightily to keep my beer in the reduced state. Don't you?

If you mean that you like to drink your beer quickly, thereby reducing the quantity that you have at hand, then I agree. If you mean you try to keep your beer from becoming oxidized, then I also make every effort to prevent oxidation. That doesn't mean that oxidation never occurs. I'm sure many homebrewers have experienced oxidized beer despite their best efforts.
 
is this better?

ry%3D400

Yes, but we're still not quite there. The glasses need to be identical (so the light path through them is the same) and all the light should come through the beer. No flash. And the exposure needs to be adjusted so that the beer shows some light coming through. In the pair L* is 2-5 for both beers on my laptop. The photo looks like 2 glasses of porter. I cannot see any difference.

Here's an example of the kind of photo we need: http://www.pbase.com/agamid/image/66773803
In this photo the flasks are in front of a light table but they can be in front of any diffuse source of light such as a white piece of cardboard illuminated with a light behind the camera in such way that the cardboard in uniformly (or as uniformly as possible) and that no light strike the glasses directly (so there is no scattered light and no shadowing on the white screen).

Perhaps it would be best to just take the samples outside and put them on a table so they have the northern sky behind them and adjust exposure until the beers show definite color. It doesn't matter if other parts of the picture are blown out.

Or, if you can find some little vials just send me 10 mL of each. If you want to do that PM me and I'll get you a mailing address.
 
Wow I was interested in this thread a while ago and now I couldn't care less. It went from cool discussion and brainstorming to nitpicky "has to be admissable in court" science
 
... brainstorming to nitpicky "has to be admissable in court" science

That's the only kind of science there is. As Edison said it's 2% inspiration (brainstorming) and 98% perspiration (doing the experiments that support or demolish the hypotheses, analyzing the data, revising the hypotheses....). Who would be served by simply accepting that it's iodine and having that become another brewing falsehood which circles the globe at the speed of the internet?
 
That's the only kind of science there is. As Edison said it's 2% inspiration (brainstorming) and 98% perspiration (doing the experiments that support or demolish the hypotheses, analyzing the data, revising the hypotheses....). Who would be served by simply accepting that it's iodine and having that become another brewing falsehood which circles the globe at the speed of the internet?

I thought you said "case closed" about 50 posts ago. I was honestly put off by that, for exactly the reasons you are now espousing. I'm glad the OP is continuing to address this. Hope we come to a conclusion we can all accept. Interesting mystery.
 
I think I said case closed WRT iodine. I don't think I said case closed period. I really do think I understand it, at least the refraction/color quality/Lambert part but I really want to see what color (SRM sense) the beer is.

It is an interesting question.
 
Another aspect of this I have neglected (I forgot about it) to mention is that photographs don't represent beer color very well if the beer appears dark either because it has a high SRM value or because it is a lower SRM beer but the light path through it is long. This is because, in either case, the color shifts towards pure (high saturation) red as the appearance darkens. This is a consequence of the fact that beer absorption spectra if normalized by the SRM are all pretty much identical and is why the SRM is a good measure of beer color. The resulting red colors quickly get outside the sRGB gamut used in computer monitors and so the color displayed is not the color photographed
 
Did you use sea salt or iodized salt?

Iodized salt can turn purple in the presence of acid or starch given a little bit of time. I had this happen to me with a batch of pickled eggs that I made once. I used iodized salt in my brine, and when it sat for a week or two, the contents reacted with the iodized salt to make everything in the jar purple! I guess that's why "pickling salt" is not iodized.

My guess is that you have a similar reaction happening in your beer from using iodized salt, which is reacting with the acid from your acidulated malt, or from unconverted starch in your beer. Check the packaging on your salt, and next time use pickling or sea salt for a Gose.

TB
maybe he didn't rinse the iodophor thoroghly and that caused a reaction?
 
Hopefully this will give a better understanding of my confusion. On the left, the gose. One the right, the berliner. Both came from the same mash. Both were the exact same color going into the carboy.

ry%3D400
 
This at least gives me some idea about the colors of the beers. Were the illumination from behind consistent I could estimate the relative SRMs but because of the non uniform background and the refraction I can get SRM ratios anywhere from 2:1 to 5:1.

Just so I am sure I understand this you put a wort of about 5 SRM in a carboy and when you took it out it was at 15 or 20 SRM. Is that correct? If so, did the color develop over time or did it appear suddenly?

The only thing I can think of that could cause something like that to happen would be that you read that Gose is often served with syrup, put the syrup in and forgot you did it. Semi serious there. The only chemical explanation I can think of is oxidation and it would be a real stretch to think that natural oxidation could be responsible for such a deep color change.

Going back to the iodine theory for a moment:

IF you had a lot of unconverted starch and
IF the salt you used contained iodine at concentrations orders of magnitude higher than iodized salt does OR iodine came from somewhere else and
IF your beer was in a highly oxidized state and
IF the pH of the beer is less than 5.5 or so
then you could get a color such as this from iodine. Of these conditions only the pH condition is likely to be met but there is a simple test. Crush a campden tablet and add it to the beer. If the color is from iodine it will go away but if it is from any other oxidative process it will probably also go away. Simple enough test.
 
Berliners are served with syrup, not goses. There was nothing added to the beer. The two beers looked exactly the same in their carboys. It was after it spent time in the keg carbing up that the discoloration happened.
 
Berliners are served with syrup but so are goses but that's not the point.

Ah, in the keg. That makes more sense. Suggests that there was some contaminant in the keg. This would be the best diagnosis at this point.

Try the campden tablet test. If a campden tablet clears the color we'll go on to DPD to see if it is from iodine. If it is, iodophor in the keg sounds like the most likely candidate but it could be any of dozens of things. Do you know the history of this keg? Have you cleaned it with caustic?
 

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