Do elements HAVE to be LD/ULD?

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mattd2

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I got a cheap kettle, 4.5 gallons, that I was going to use on my kitchen stove. But it is pretty thin and the bottom is not completely flat so that when it is on the glass cooktop only the outer rim of the pot is touching and this is killing the heat transfer from the element to the pot!
Now I have read post that say "oh no.... you HAVE to use a ULD element or you'll scorce you wort!" And it seems most poeple use only LD elements for the 3000 W range.
Now I have a electric jug that was destine for the bin but I saved it, ripped it apart and now have a small(ish) 2400 W element that would fit the bill for this pot and get me off the BBQ (which is not really the best solution to the concave bottom issue). My concerns are all the "must have a ULD" posts. has anyone ever use a electric kettle/jug element to boil wort before?
I just ran a water test (in a 1 litre tin bofore I hack up my pot I wanted to make sure it would seal/work) and the when turned on bubble apair on the element pretty quickly, is this the norm for LD/ULD elements aswell?
Any info would be great.
Cheers :mug:
 
There are plenty that use HD elements and haven't had any issues with scorching, FWIW I think you'll be just fine.
 
Thanks Wyzazz. Now I just got to work out how I am going to mount it all because the element will need to come through the bottom of the pot so I need to figure out how to stand the pot up so the wires don't bend and break!
Cheers
 
I wouldn't do anything permanent to that pot. You may find one bigger or flatter down the road. Make a heatstick out of that element.....
 
Yeah I have thought about a heatstick Sizz, but what would I do with the not-so-good pot then, it really doesn't get much heat on the stove because of the concave. When I get a bigger pot I could still use the 4.5G as a pre-coverted E-HLT.
Example pic of the element
705541.jpg

Not really usable in a heat stick due to the mounting. Actually it might be quite good in a heat stick due to the mounting -> Element - pipe cap with holes drilled for element - pipe -> done.
Any suggestions welcome.
 
The whole idea of scorching or caramelization seems to be mostly internet folklore. I haven't come across one concrete example where this has happened but I still use ULWD elements as the cost difference is minimal compared to 'standard' elements.

There is however one very good reason to use ULWD elements over regular elements: They won't break if fired up "dry" (not immersed in water). When a regular element is fired up "dry" the element will pop fairly quickly (usually before you notice your mistake!) as there is no water to dissipate the heat. While nobody means to fire up an element by mistake, mistakes do happen.

Using ULWD elements provides you with a little bit of insurance against these human errors. Brew long enough and one day you will forget that you have your element switch in the on position when you first fire it up.

Popping an element is about the last thing you want given that you've likely already milled your grain and have everything ready to go.

Kal
 
Thanks for the reassurance as to not "needing" ULD/LD. Yeah this element was going in the trash anyway so I won't be to sad if I do fry it (although I will be because of the lost brewday). And that is another +1 for Sizz as if I do wreck it, I don't want to have to spend $$ on a kettle to tear apart to get the element when I could get a hot water element for probably the same price ;)
Thanks guys, I think I am leaning more towards the heat stick path with this one :)
 
OK, so I went and check out some prices to build a heat stick. Basically it would cost less to buy another pot than it would to buy just a 1m length of pvc pipe and a pipe cap.
ow that just depresses me :(
 
My heatsticks all use HD 120v elements. They get a trub coating in the boil, but I have never had any scorching issues in the boil kettle.

I tried using one to bump up the heat in my MLT once. That time, I had some grain stick to the element and some scorching.

So, I would say HD elements are fine for the boil, but not for the mash.

IMAG0011.JPG

IMAG0080.JPG
 
Boy, sounds like I need to smuggle PVC Pipe in to New Zealand!

Yeah, I check the prices at a Lowes type store here; 40mm x 1 m pvc pipe = $16 + 40 mm cap = $12 => $28 not including the cement (only because I already have some)I bought the pot on sale for $18 usually $25!
 
I've used 4500w elements (not ld or uld), and reaped a super burned brew. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

So there's that internet folklore thing busted :)
 
I've used 4500w elements (not ld or uld), and reaped a super burned brew. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

So there's that internet folklore thing busted :)

Could you elaborate on this? AG/Extract/PM brew? LME or DME? Mash or Boil Kettle if AG? Thanks!
 
AG. I used the element both for the mash and boil (at 60-70% duty cycle during boil). The wort was horribly burned and beyond salvation (drinking). 80 liters down the drain.
 
AG. I used the element both for the mash and boil (at 60-70% duty cycle during boil). The wort was horribly burned and beyond salvation (drinking). 80 liters down the drain.

Did you have the element directly in the Mash, or were you recirculating through a Herms or RIMS tube?

How were you controlling the element, manual, PID, pmw, other?

Did the wort scortch during mash or boil?
 
I'm not sure if the scorching happened during mash or boil, but I doubt it happened during mashing because the element were only intermittently on - just maintaining heat with my pid controller from auber instruments. There was constant agitation around the elements with the help of a pump during mashing, but they are not contained in a rims tube.

During the boil the elements were on much more and no pump. I used a 60-70% duty cycle with the help of the manual mode of my pid controllers.
 
AG. I used the element both for the mash and boil (at 60-70% duty cycle during boil). The wort was horribly burned and beyond salvation (drinking). 80 liters down the drain.
+1 to whether it was in the mash or boil scorching happened? As cpt kirk said he has scorching when used in the mash.
Ok I type slow.
Even though the element was not on much during the mash it would of been on 100% when it was and I would think that would be enough to cause some scorching.
 
I don't see what the difference is though. Boil or mash it's the same liquid, just more diluted in the beginning of the mash (less chance of getting burned?)

I realize I'm being vague and possibly not helpful, but given my experience I wouldn't recommend non-LD/ULD elements in any step of brewing, except just heating up water.

LD/ULD elements don't seem that much more expensive so save yourself the trouble of thinking "what if" and get them :)
 
I'm not sure if the scorching happened during mash or boil, but I doubt it happened during mashing because the element were only intermittently on - just maintaining heat with my pid controller from auber instruments. There was constant agitation around the elements with the help of a pump during mashing, but they are not contained in a rims tube.
I don't follow. Are you saying you have the element directly in the mash itself? In other words grain is up against the element? You can't do that. That would most certainly cause scorching of grain (not wort) which would in turn give you a horrible burnt taste to the wort as it's soaking in burnt grain.

The wort may be recirculating with a pump but the pump doesn't mix the mash grains.

When on, the element would be at 100% which would fairly quickly burn grains near the elements. You wouldn't be to stur either as that would be dangerous. Even if you could stir, you could never stir enough or fast enough to circulate the mash to avoid burning grain.

It's too bad you didn't taste any of the sweet wort as you sparged. I bet it tasted burnt because you burnt a bunch of the grains.

I know dozens of local brewers who use the cheapest high density elements they can find for their boil kettles not mash) and they've never had any 'burnt' tastes at all even in lighter lagers. I think you got it because your process is incorrect - not because the element isn't ULWD. I bet you would have had the same taste had you used an ULWD element.

All assuming you indeed did use a heating element in direct contact with grain of course.

Kal
 
Obviously I didn't have the elements with the grains. I have 2 containers, one which I use for boiling, which has the elements controlled by the pid controller. The wort is pumped from that container to my mash tun. The elements never get close to any grains.

My setup is kind of a mix between herms and rims.
 
That makes more sense, although I would call that a RIMS setup.
Fair enough, is Iceland 230v as standard (i.e. no 120V)? As it might have something to do with the 4500W vs Cpt Kirks 2000W (I'm guessing) elements?
Thanks for the heads up, so far got 1 go for it and 1 be cautious. I think I will go for it (as this is the cheapest option all up = $0) and break the tie ;)
 
Obviously I didn't have the elements with the grains. I have 2 containers, one which I use for boiling, which has the elements controlled by the pid controller. The wort is pumped from that container to my mash tun. The elements never get close to any grains.

My setup is kind of a mix between herms and rims.

I'm not trying to take shots at you or your system, just trying to understand what happened so we can all learn from your experience. I don't blame you for deciding to use lwd or ulwd exclusively.

So if I understand, you drain into your BK, add heat to the wort and return it to the MT. Where is your temp probe that controls the PID located during you re-circulation? Is it in the MT or BK?

Do you have a means to match the flow of wort out of the MT to the flow returned such that you can be assured the element in the BK is always submerged?
 
Temp probe is in the BK. Temp difference between BK and the runoff from the MT is about 1°C, sometimes less.

Matching the flow is just a matter of adjusting valves (pump and MT) a couple of times during mashing. Not the most technical way, but it works. The system isn't perfect but it makes damn good beer, I get about 75% efficiency and don't have to sparge.

The elements are low enough so that they will never go dry - the MT will overflow before that happens.
 
OK to get back on track with an update...
I decided I will actually go for a small trial in a 1 litre baby formula tin, I need to get some beer back on tap so I got a Kit & kilo Cooper's stout (part of another concept trial for a DIY stout faucet). I'll mix that one all together then take a litre and boil it in the "formula pot" and see if any scorching occurs.
What should I be looking for for signs of scorching? smell/look/taste?
 
Why not just put a board in the pot, pot in the dirt, and smack it with a hammer a few times to flatten the bottom of the pot?

Luck!
 
Why not just put a board in the pot, pot in the dirt, and smack it with a hammer a few times to flatten the bottom of the pot?

Luck!

Tried that already, the thing just won't level out. And I also don't want to go too far and end up with a pot that only get heated in 1 spot and won't sit still ;). Our frying pan is like that, with the stove on high it will just simmer round the outer edge but in the middle will burn food if you don't keep stirring it (due to it been bent outwards on the bottom (maybe from it being overheat once :eek:))!
 
Just finished the "test" boil, the can was mor like 1.8 litres and the K&K wort was 1.036, so I had 1 litre of wart and about 1/2 a litre of top up water to make sure the element was submersed. It fired up to a boil great but then had a huge (read HUUUUUUUUUUGE) boil over from the 2.4 kW element in such a tiny can. Managed to leave it boiling for about 3-5 mins before calling it quits. After emptying the can the element looked fine, not burn on wort or anything. There was not burnt smell either so I think I might be drilling my pot to take this element pretty soon :mug:
 
So, over a month later I drilled my pot the other night and installed the element. Wow this thing is awesome, way better than using the BBQ or stovetop!
Only had a 1kg bag of base malt left so my recipe was a bit messed up (Santa should be bringing me some more grains ;)). Recipe was 1kg pale malt, 0.75 kg corn flakes - mashed 60 mins at 2 qts/lb (one draw back of the element is it is around 1.6 G in the pot when the element is fully underwater :O ). Double batch sparge with 1 G each in a 2.5 G bucket. Total runnings ~ 3.5G, post boil ~ 2.5G. 60 min boil with; 0.3oz sticklebrakt @ 60 min, 0.1oz sticklebrakt @ 10 min, 0.3oz sticklebrakt @ flameout.
Pitched havested US05 at 75 deg F after about 20-30 mins with the 3x 1/4" IC.
Now fermenting at 17 deg C.

Will report back if it tastes any good :O
There was a ***** of scum on the element after the boil, but this looked like beer stone as it was simular to what was on the element when I took it out of the kettle, due to hard water (don't know really?). no burnt smell at all and a real good rolling boil but no boil over, I think I could possibly push 4 G in the 4.5 G pot with this setup.
Cheers for everyones advice on this!
Oh and I might call the beer "House Patients Pale Ale (or what every catagory it fits into)" as I was brewing this to keep my mind off the fact we had an offer in on a house and were waiting to here back from the vendor who was putting offers in on other houses based on what we had offered them - 3 days after we put the initial offer in, including 1 open home which we went to and almost cried because other people we looking at "our" house! This nearly drove me and SWMBO crazy so I think it is a fitting name, hopefully the beer comes out ok. Oh and yes we got the house ! :ban:
 
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