How can I achieve these flavors??

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Berlbrew

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OK, let's start with some background info. I've been brewing for about a year and a half at this point, AG now for about 1 year. My beers have been getting consistently better to the point where my process is consistently churning out clean, well-executed beers.

Now, it just so happens that I work at the Sam Adams brewery in Boston- I'm one of the college student part-time tour guides. It's an AWESOME job, I've been at it for about 6 months and I get more free Sam Adams then anyone could imagine plus I get to spend my days in real brewhouse with pros.

Getting to the point here: I am the ONLY tour guide at Sam Adams that's a home brewer. When I got hired I was very surprised. But this is working out to my advantage. Every summer there is an incentive contest for all the tour guides (there are about 15 of us). There are two ways to win points in the incentive contest: one is to sell Boston Lager Glasses and get people to sign up for the e-newsletter, the other is a tour guide home brew competition. Here's the kicker- the winner gets an all-expense paid trip with Jim Koch and other company reps to Denver for the GABF. Nuts, right?

In the past beers that have won this competition are rarely classic styles that are well-executed (what I almost always brew). The winners are fun beers that involve unusual ingredients and creative ideas like blueberry witbier and strawberry dunkelweizen. These past winners have NOT been good and I'm looking to show them up with a creative and fantastic beer. I've got a few ideas that I'm working on, but the one I'm currently considering has left me stumped.

I want to create a recipe for an Oatmeal Cookie Stout. Basically an oatmeal stout with toasted oats, biscuit & special b, as well as maybe some vanilla, raisins, or brown sugar. Here's what I've got so far:

10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 71.28 %
1.50 lb Oats, Flaked (Toasted @ 300) (1.0 SRM) Grain 10.69 %
0.88 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 6.27 %
0.66 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 4.70 %
0.33 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 2.35 %
0.33 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 2.35 %
0.33 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.35 %
1.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 22.5 IBU
2 Pkgs English Ale (White Labs #WLP002) Yeast-Ale


So what are your thoughts? How do I make this have more of a noticeable oatmeal raisin type cookie flavor? I'm pretty dead-set on using vanilla beans in the secondary but I'm more at a loss with the raisins and/or brown sugar... I've never used either before. So yea, any help is appreciated. Thanks for reading this convoluted long post!
 
Randy Mosher has a recipe for a similar beer in Radical Brewing, he added a lb of brown sugar and a tsp of cinnamon.
Good luck!
 
Special B will give you some nice raisin flavor in the right amounts so you're on the right track there. I use a lb of it in my brown ale recipe and it gives a nice hint of dried fruit.

+1 on the vanilla beans in secondary. Oatmeal cookies have to have a touch of vanilla flavor in them.
 
Thanks for the responses.

Eon: That cinnamon sounds like a good idea. Does Mosher suggest adding both at the end of the boil? I've seen differing opinions on when to actually add brown sugar (mash vs. boil vs. bottling).

Cat: Yea, that's what I'm going for with the special b. A whole pound sounds like a lot! Was that a 5 gallon batch of your brown ale? If so did it overpower at all?
 
Berlbrew said:
Thanks for the responses.

Cat: Yea, that's what I'm going for with the special b. A whole pound sounds like a lot! Was that a 5 gallon batch of your brown ale? If so did it overpower at all?
Click to expand...

It comes out fairly sweet, but that could also be from the amber extract I use. It has a nice dried fruit flavor, but it's not really strong. The biscuit malt I use in it still comes through. It's kind of like biscuits with a little jam.
 
He doesn't specify he just says to add it to the kettle, if I were to guess I would think it would be for the full boil time.
 
It's a damn shame that well-executed classic styles lose out to goofy stuff. Ah, well.

I think you're on to a nice beer there. In order to really make the dark-fruit flavors of Special B noticeable, you'll need more than the proportion listed. I'd delete the 60L Crystal and use at least a half-pound of Special B. To get those flavors through the roasted grains, you may wish to use a full pound.

Do you have time to brew and condition a "tweak" batch before the comp?

Bob
 
I agree with Bob (as usual) and the C Cat. Drop the crystal 60 and go with a full lb of special B. I'd also lose that biscuit malt and replace it with some amber malt or some home-toasted malt to get that kind of toasty flavor in there. You could add a lb of brown sugar but I don't think it will make a huge flavor contribution. You might instead consider adding a small amount of molasses (the flavor component of brown sugar). A touch of cinnamon at flameout would really help get the oatmeal raisin cookie idea across as well as the vanilla bean in secondary. Some raisins in secondary might be an interesting addition as well since it will help take the flavors the special b is hinting at and make them more recognizable and real. I'd soak the raisins in some type of liqueur for a week or so prior to adding to secondary. Preferably something with flavors that would compliment an oatmeal raisin cookie, maybe brandy or a good dark rum. Good luck with the competition!
 
Thanks for all the advice, HBT never fails to give me answers.

I think Bob is right (he's never steered me wrong before) I'm going to increase the special b to 1 lb and drop the C60. I think I am going to hang on to the biscuit malt per the advice of YooperBrew who claims it will accentuate the toasted oat cookie flavor. As for the brown sugar I think I'll probably add .5-1 lb. at 15 min or so. Luckily I do have time to tweak a batch and re-brew after making some adjustments. That's why I'm starting early. The home brews aren't due until sometime in August, but I want to have time to try a few recipes and see what ends up being most impressive. I'm brewing a very hoppy weizenbock, Belgian IPA, and a chocolate milk stout (based on a Left Hand Milk Stout clone).

I might even split this batch in the secondary, throwing raisins and vanilla into one and only vanilla into another. If anyone else has any more ideas for this recipe or any other creative recipes for the contest feel free to let me know!
 
Ooo. Listen to The King about the molasses. Brown sugar is nothing more than white table sugar with molasses added back. (Unlike "natural" sugars like Turbinado, which are not as refined as white sugar.)

I <3 a touch of molasses in my oatmeal raisin cookies. I think it'll add a lovely, complementary note to the beer.

Bob
 
OK, I'm convinced. Now the question is how much molasses and when to add it?

I've never brewed with it but I know that Jim Koch and the guys at Sam Adams are definitely fans of beers using molasses.
 
Berlbrew said:
OK, let's start with some background info. I've been brewing for about a year and a half at this point, AG now for about 1 year. My beers have been getting consistently better to the point where my process is consistently churning out clean, well-executed beers.

Now, it just so happens that I work at the Sam Adams brewery in Boston- I'm one of the college student part-time tour guides. It's an AWESOME job, I've been at it for about 6 months and I get more free Sam Adams then anyone could imagine plus I get to spend my days in real brewhouse with pros.

Getting to the point here: I am the ONLY tour guide at Sam Adams that's a home brewer. When I got hired I was very surprised. But this is working out to my advantage. Every summer there is an incentive contest for all the tour guides (there are about 15 of us). There are two ways to win points in the incentive contest: one is to sell Boston Lager Glasses and get people to sign up for the e-newsletter, the other is a tour guide home brew competition. Here's the kicker- the winner gets an all-expense paid trip with Jim Koch and other company reps to Denver for the GABF. Nuts, right?

In the past beers that have won this competition are rarely classic styles that are well-executed (what I almost always brew). The winners are fun beers that involve unusual ingredients and creative ideas like blueberry witbier and strawberry dunkelweizen. These past winners have NOT been good and I'm looking to show them up with a creative and fantastic beer. I've got a few ideas that I'm working on, but the one I'm currently considering has left me stumped.

I want to create a recipe for an Oatmeal Cookie Stout. Basically an oatmeal stout with toasted oats, biscuit & special b, as well as maybe some vanilla, raisins, or brown sugar. Here's what I've got so far:

10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 71.28 %
1.50 lb Oats, Flaked (Toasted @ 300) (1.0 SRM) Grain 10.69 %
0.88 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 6.27 %
0.66 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 4.70 %
0.33 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 2.35 %
0.33 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 2.35 %
0.33 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.35 %
1.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 22.5 IBU
2 Pkgs English Ale (White Labs #WLP002) Yeast-Ale


So what are your thoughts? How do I make this have more of a noticeable oatmeal raisin type cookie flavor? I'm pretty dead-set on using vanilla beans in the secondary but I'm more at a loss with the raisins and/or brown sugar... I've never used either before. So yea, any help is appreciated. Thanks for reading this convoluted long post!
Click to expand...

You could get some extra raisin flavour by using a different yeast and some dark liquid candi sugar. Not sure what's available to you where you live but if you can get a hold of D2 syrup and wyeast 3787 you'll push the raisin.

That said you want complex, not complicated. Most Belgian trappist styles are supremely complex in flavour but uncomplicated in grist. Your mashing and fermentation processes will have as much to do with the end result as your ingredients list.

If you do add candi sugar, don't overdo it and add it in after high krausen. Additionally, add it in bit by bit (say 25% every 2 days) to avoid hot alcohols. If you do use the syrup then drop out the brown sugar or any molasses.

Personally, if you're really turning out well crafted beers in a recognisable style, it shouldn't take much to take a good recipe of yours and tweak it with the right flavours to make it well crafted AND interesting/creative etc. That's how minds are really blown.
 
Bob said:
Good question. In a beer of this complexity, I'd say a half-pound by weight. Add it whenever you like - beginning of the boil is fine.

Bob
Click to expand...

That's about what I had guessed. I think this recipe is shaping up to be really interesting and exciting. I don't think I'll go with the previous suggestion of using candi sugar and Wyeast 3787, I'm trying to maintain a clean finish from the yeast, no phenols or other funk. Here's what I've got now:

10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 72.36 %
1.50 lb Oats, Flaked (Toasted 300) (1.0 SRM) Grain 10.85 %
1.00 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 7.24 %
0.66 lb Carafa Special II (Weyermann) (415.0 SRM) Grain 4.78 %
0.33 lb Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 2.39 %
0.33 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 2.39 %
1.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 23.5 IBU
0.10 oz Cinnamon Stick (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
0.50 lb Molasses (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
2.00 items Vanilla Bean (Secondary 7.0 days) Misc
2 Pkgs English Ale (White Labs #WLP002) Yeast-Ale

One other change I made was to go from using chocolate to carafa special- I feel like that will help me minimize the astringent bitterness from the dark malts and carafa special is readily available to me. Thanks again for all the help, if you've got anything else to add don't be shy!
 
You could try soaking the cinnamon stick with the vanilla beans (and raisins if you want more than the special B brings) in bourbon instead of boiling them. There was a recipe in BYO a few months ago that did that.

Other than that, maybe a touch of honey malt?
 
Wonder if you could add molasses directly to the fermenter like you might with sugar in a saison. Could retain more of the flavor and aroma that way maybe? I've never used molasses so I have no idea. Just throwing ideas outta my butt.
 
dcp27 said:
You could try soaking the cinnamon stick with the vanilla beans (and raisins if you want more than the special B brings) in bourbon instead of boiling them. There was a recipe in BYO a few months ago that did that.

Other than that, maybe a touch of honey malt?
Click to expand...

Interesting idea, is there any known benefit to that over boiling? And honey malt sounds like a decent idea but I don't wanna go overboard here, it might not be necessary.
 
To make molasses they boil the hell out of it so I don't think a little bit of boiling in wort is going to degrade it's flavor any.
 
dcp27 said:
You could try soaking the cinnamon stick with the vanilla beans (and raisins if you want more than the special B brings) in bourbon instead of boiling them. There was a recipe in BYO a few months ago that did that.

Other than that, maybe a touch of honey malt?
Click to expand...


Honey malt will assist you in achieving an oatmeal cookie flavor....the Toasted Oat Pale Ale in my drop down uses 4 oz of honey malt and really does have a sort of oatmeal raisin flavor complexity to it. It was a great beer.
 

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