Cider smells like Cat Pee

*officially it's cider, from experience I'd describe it as cat pee.

Hi Everyone,

I'm trying to homebrew my own cider, and batch #1 was just.AWFUL

I used No Name brand apple juice. No preservatives, just pure juice. Couldn't tell you what kind of apples.

I used Lalvin EC-1118 yeast (two packages for 5 gallons, because I suck)

So here's the whole story:

I poured my juice into a 5 gallon bucket, added some yeast, and closed it so the only apparent opening was my fermentation airlock. After a few days of no bubbles, I assumed I'd killed the yeast by not re-hydrating it. As such I prepped more yeast and dumped it in. Upon peeking in after adding the second batch of yeast I noticed a thick froth on the top of the mixture. Apparently fermentation was happening, but my bucket didn't have a perfect seal, so I assume the CO2 was escaping from the seams of my bucket. After sealing the bucket with saran wrap, plumbers vinyl tape and duct tape, the seal was complete. For real this time, because the airlock started bubbling happily.

After the bubbles stopped (~2 weeks), I transferred into a carboy for secondary fermentation. There was maybe 2 inches of air between the meniscus and the vapour lock. From here I let my mix settle so the cloudiness went away, then I started bottling.

My end product had a specific gravity of 1.004, and an alcohol content of 5.25%

I cleaned everything beforehand, I swear.

So why does my cider smell like cat pee, and taste watery?!?

EC-1118 actually works fine if you pitch it directly into the juice, there's no need to rehydrate. As long as it's not really old (several years) and is kept inside the fridge it should work without any issues. Some yeasts need to be started, others don't, if you use another yeast just read the label and read about how people here pitch it.

What temperature did you ferment at? EC-1118 is okay with higher temps, I just finished a batch which was fermenting at 25*C and came out fine (for my definition of "fine"). Two weeks fermenting and a week in bottles. I don't even bother with secondary.

What did you use to sanitize?

Basically I'm sort of confused how things ended up like that for you... mine was 7% thanks to a small bit of added sugar so maybe those extra 2% make a big difference towards the watery texture you describe. From what I've read here, juice brand shouldn't really matter for store-bought juice, it only begins to matter when you are using cooking or cider apples and know what kinds are being used. I used Rougemont Royal Gala in my batch, and for my current batch I'm using Wellesley, mostly because it comes in a gallon glass carboy that I can re-use.

You might just want to let the cider sit in bottles for a few weeks and see what happens. Someone more experienced than me could probably help more.

Also, greetings from a fellow Torontonian, hope you had a great Canada Day!

Cat pee... *insert 'ew' face here*

Through the batches that i've done i have noticed with that particular yeast (1118) i got a 'farty' smell when i would rack it into bottles or a secondary (i was trying to figure out what part of the process made it stink, and im OCD with my sanitation so its very unlikely its part of that.) but the taste was a dry finish, very light apple taste that didn't linger (watery)... but it seriously smelled like a family of ferrets farted in my glass before i took a sip.

From what i found everyone said to go on to the next batch and bottle the stinky stuff. let it sit in a dark basement in a corner to be forgotten.. set your self a 6 month reminder somewhere and treat it like a time capsule. im still waiting on mine, so i can't comment on if this actually settles smell issues, but i thought i'd at least give my 2cents on what I'm giving a try for a stink fix.

as far as the taste.. the smell can always trick out your pallet. but it might be that yeast.. most people say they like that 1118, and my local brew store suggested it for my first bucket, but I've never been super satisfied with it.. its a dry finish and doesn't leave much for the taste..

i hope other people have experienced a similar stink that have some suggestions..

If you fix the stink and still want more flavor i'd look around the forums for tips on back-sweetening and/or racking the cider before fermentation hits 1.000. (and tell us how you did it! )

TL;DR: mine smelled like ferret farts and i'm letting the cider sit in my basement for 6 months in the dark like a time capsule.

Ferret farts.

That may be an accurate comparison. I've never smelled one of those, but I'll be honest when I say that cat pee doesn't quite do justice to the stank of the bouquet of this vintage.

I was pretty meticulous cleaning everything. The name of the cleaner I used escapes me at the moment.

My current suspects are the following:

• too much oxygenation

• 2x the yeast ruined everything

• low-quality applejuice

• our cat opened the carboy when no one was looking and peed in there, before sealing it off again

Hi Bryan.
The smell you refer to sounds like hydrogen sulfide and hydrogen sulfide is produced by yeast when they are stressed because of a lack of nutrients in the must (the juice before you pitch the yeast). Yeast needs both oxygen and nitrogen and some minerals to enable them to reproduce and repair any damage to cell walls. A lack of such material results in stressed yeast. Unlike grapes most fruits don't have all the nutrients that the yeast need and so you may want to add some. Your LHBS almost certainly sells the nutrients (often called DAP) or at a pinch you can simply boil some bread yeast and use the dead yeast cells in lieu of more professionally constructed yeast food.

Unlike brewing beer, it is often (always, I would say) good practice to stir air into the cider while the yeast is actively fermenting the sugars. Aeration is not a single event in wine making that ends before you pitch the yeast. It is something you do two or three times a day while the gravity reads above about 1.005.

Also EC-1118 yeast is a very aggressive yeast. I guess many folk on this forum use it but there are far better yeasts for fermenting apple juice. Those yeasts do not blow off all the apple aromas and flavors and they are better suited to work with the malic acid that is the predominant acid in apples. Your LHBS should be able to suggest one of those yeasts - 71B is a good one as is QA-23. Some beer yeasts handle apples well, too.

OK I wanna cover everything I can.

• Fermented at 18-20oC

• Cleaned diligently with (I forget the brand I bought from vin-bon, but it came as a powder to be dissolved in water)

• Hasn't sat for long after bottling. Less than 24 hours, actually

• Fermented to dryness, alcohol potential started at 5.75, alcohol potential at the end was no more than 0.5. So I wouldn't have suspected stressed yeast...but maybe?

I also don't believe you did anything wrong. EC-1118 is a very aggressive yeast, and it may well take at least 6 months for the apple flavor to return.

Don't listen to these noobs!!!!!!
I locked a cat that i just fed a gallon of water inside your ferm-chamber with your cider.
=================================================
On a serious note, there is a term for that weird cider smell, and that name is "rhino-farts" (not kidding). It as mentioned above is due to stressed yeast starved for nutrients. DAP works and your LHBS should have it or something called yeast nutrient/energiser....use a good amount of it and you shouldn't get as bad a smell from your cider.
EC-1118 is a monster of a yeast and i am highly suprised it finished @ 1.004 and not .999 for a non sugar added cider. I did a no sugar added cider with it before and it was SO dry that i turned into a desert upon drinking it. After learning how to reasemble my grains of sand into limbs and control them enough to brew again i added a LOT of sugar to the juice beforehand when using that particular yeast strain. Now, i have a pretty large amount of 18% ABV cider laying around.
-cheers.

It sounds like your cider is pretty young. Lock it away and forget about it for a long time, then try it again. I've used 1118 and found it left cider tasting watery at first but the flavour returns/develops with time.

chevalcider said:

It sounds like your cider is pretty young. Lock it away and forget about it for a long time, then try it again. I've used 1118 and found it left cider tasting watery at first but the flavour returns/develops with time.

Click to expand...

I tend to think of cider as something you can drink after two or three months. After all, the alcohol content of cider is low - 5 or 6 percent ABV and it should be fermented at low temperatures so there ought to be no harsh fusels. Certainly after 9 to 12 months the malic acid seems to smooth out and the cider takes on a different dimension but you should be able to drink good cider in December if the apples are pressed in October. I would suggest that the need to "age" the cider is due to your choice of yeast. Buy a lion and it bites your arm off. Buy a kitten and it purrs...

OK gang, I've got some awesome feedback, and I can't thank you enough.

Now I'm looking for a solid executive summary of what I need to do moving forward. If I'm dead-wrong anywhere, let me know:

Existing batch:

• Let it sit in the bottles for a few months and hope the catpiss odour goes away?

Next batch:

• pick a milder yeast, and don't rush the process

• use yeast nutrient

• keep cats out of the carboy

Am I missing anything?

If you have already bottled the cider, then the hydrogen sulfide has nowhere to go except squat inside the bottle. What I might do is (1) open those bottles and carefully pour the cider back into the fermenting bucket on top of (2) a sanitized copper wire pot scrubber. Copper will break down the hydrogen sulfide and force the sulfur to bind with the copper. (3) I would also gently whip air into the bucket - that helps remove the smell and then add the airlock back and allow the cider to sit for a couple of weeks. I think you can remove the scrubber after a day or so, but I would bottle the cider using a siphon whose base was resting on the copper.
I have never had to use Cu to remove hydrogen sulfide so I am simply going with what is considered good practice.

You can still use the lavlin EC-1118 yeast.
Just be aware of what it can do/will do.
I have a recipe in my `drop down` which can guide you in using that yeast strain but that's if you are going for a VERY high ABV cider that is also rather sweet in the finish.
You have to ask yourself exactly what kind if cider you are trying to make.
What ABV range are you shooting for.-IE session cider (3-5%),slow sipper (15-20%), or middle of the road (6-14%).
How much residual sugar do you want.-IE dry as a bone,middle ground,or `apple pie aint got nuthin on this`sweetness.
How soon can you wait for the ciders `maturity. in months.

Ideally,you should make several batches at once or at least a 5-gallon batch perhaps split into seperate containers. If you don't mind spending a few bucks you can see exactly what a few different yeasts will do to a cider and also experiment with adding table sugar/honey/belgian candi sugar-syrup (it's easy to make your own)
So if you are looking for low ABV that's not bone dry and ready to drink in under 3 months try safale SO-4 with yeast nutrient and get a dog to chase that cat away from your carboy.
-cheers.

Very much agree with your thoughts, Paps, but if someone was simply fermenting apple juice with a starting gravity of about 1.050 or thereabouts, why would an ale yeast like -04 give up the ghost and leave any residual sweetness? Safale yeasts can't deal with 5 or 6 percent ABV? If the must had added sugar and was closer to 12 or 14 % ABV then I can see the ale yeast conking out but at 5%? That suggests that beer yeasts are all skin and no bone.

Hi everyone,

You're giving me some solid advice, so here's my thoughts. I'm not sure I'm going to do the copper thing. I think I'm just going to have to man up and drink a bottle of cat pee every week for the next 6 months (for science). With any luck I can determine if there's a perfect amount of 'sitting in the bottle' that makes everything all better. I have my doubts, mind you.

Paps: Ideally I'd like something akin to the commercial draught ciders. So I was initially really happy when I saw that I had 5.25% ABV. In my perfect world I also want that sweetness and carbonation.

I guess the tricky part is how to retain some sugar before the yeast eats it all up. Just dump some potassium sulphite in the carboy at the right time? How do you really know the right time? (I suppose the other option is to add sweetness once the initial sugar supply is exhausted). Do you guys have a prefer strategy between those two?

Finally carbonation would be nice. But I'm pretty sure that will have to wait until I buy some kind of pressurization equipment.

Cheers guys!

Active yeast will eat any sugar that you add. They don't care that you want that sugar for sweetness. Brewers on this forum will advise you to add the sugar and then pasteurize the bottle thus killing the yeast before they can eat too much of the added sugar - leaving you with residual sweetness.
Wine makers baulk at the idea of using heat at any point in wine making (it destroys flavor) and will advise you to allow the cider to age and as it ages rack the cider off the yeast until there are virtually no active yeast cells - perhaps 4-6 months, racking every 2 months. You then stabilize using BOTH K-meta and K-sorbate in tandem. These two chemicals prevent the yeast from reproducing and very seriously inhibit the fermentation process - so if you then add sugar you have absolute control over the level of sweetness in your wine or cider or mead..HOWEVER.. if you add K-meta and K-sorbate to an active and large yeast colony then those yeast have enough wherewithall to ferment the sugars you then add. (You can add sugar a few minutes after adding the stabilizers if the colony of yeast is depleted).

Cider is simple to make. Good cider is a little harder. Sweet, low ABV, carbonated cider is really complicated. We ferment dry, backsweeten, then carb in a keg. Works great but not simple.

Does your cider actually smell like cat pee? Or does it smell like sulfur (farty)?

Bryan19836 said:

Hi everyone,

You're giving me some solid advice, so here's my thoughts. I'm not sure I'm going to do the copper thing. I think I'm just going to have to man up and drink a bottle of cat pee every week for the next 6 months (for science). With any luck I can determine if there's a perfect amount of 'sitting in the bottle' that makes everything all better. I have my doubts, mind you.

Paps: Ideally I'd like something akin to the commercial draught ciders. So I was initially really happy when I saw that I had 5.25% ABV. In my perfect world I also want that sweetness and carbonation.

I guess the tricky part is how to retain some sugar before the yeast eats it all up. Just dump some potassium sulphite in the carboy at the right time? How do you really know the right time? (I suppose the other option is to add sweetness once the initial sugar supply is exhausted). Do you guys have a prefer strategy between those two?

Finally carbonation would be nice. But I'm pretty sure that will have to wait until I buy some kind of pressurization equipment.

Cheers guys!

Click to expand...

A couple of things here. As mentioned, EC1118 is a very aggressive yeast and typically finishes well below 1.000. I believe that the fact your cider finished at 1.004 points to something being wrong. Most likely stressed yeast, rhino farts being a consequence of that too.

I can't advise you as to how to make it go away now that you've bottled it. Sorry.

My ciders typically start at 1.050 and end at about 1.000 with ale yeasts. That gives about 6.25% ABV. I avoid wine yeasts because they tend to strip the fruit flavor.

I always use yeast nutrient. It just makes the yeasties happier, and fermentation takes less time. I'm an impatient Yo' and I want to drink my cider now - not 2 years from now. I'll age stuff for a few months sometimes if I'm trying something weird, but a typical batch is 5 weeks (2+2+1) before being consumed. Adding sugar to boost alcohol, and/or using wine yeast would necessitate aging and I can't wait for that.

Making small batches - bottling 1 gallon at a time - lets me control my outcome by refrigeration. I can add FAJC at bottling time to bring sweetness up to what I want and also serve as priming sugar. When the bubbles get to where I want them, into the fridge they go.

HTH

I can't remember all the details. Did you bottle this? If you had 1.004 FG, it could work its way down and give you bottle bombs. Better refrigerate.

bernardsmith said:

Very much agree with your thoughts, Paps, but if someone was simply fermenting apple juice with a starting gravity of about 1.050 or thereabouts, why would an ale yeast like -04 give up the ghost and leave any residual sweetness? Safale yeasts can't deal with 5 or 6 percent ABV? If the must had added sugar and was closer to 12 or 14 % ABV then I can see the ale yeast conking out but at 5%? That suggests that beer yeasts are all skin and no bone.

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Many a beer starts out at 1.050 or lower and finish at say 1.010.
Sure, you can nudge that same yeast to drop down to 1.000 but it often takes some encouragement from the brewer to make a yeast that usually putzes out at a higher mark hit that mark.
After all it's sugar in the beer as well.

Bryan19836 said:

Hi everyone,

You're giving me some solid advice, so here's my thoughts. I'm not sure I'm going to do the copper thing. I think I'm just going to have to man up and drink a bottle of cat pee every week for the next 6 months (for science). With any luck I can determine if there's a perfect amount of 'sitting in the bottle' that makes everything all better. I have my doubts, mind you.

Paps: Ideally I'd like something akin to the commercial draught ciders. So I was initially really happy when I saw that I had 5.25% ABV. In my perfect world I also want that sweetness and carbonation.

I guess the tricky part is how to retain some sugar before the yeast eats it all up. Just dump some potassium sulphite in the carboy at the right time? How do you really know the right time? (I suppose the other option is to add sweetness once the initial sugar supply is exhausted). Do you guys have a prefer strategy between those two?

Finally carbonation would be nice. But I'm pretty sure that will have to wait until I buy some kind of pressurization equipment.

Cheers guys!

Click to expand...

A LARGE amount of cider makers will let the primary fermentation go to dry (1.000 / 0.999) the kill off the yeast followed by back-sweetening meaning they add more apple juice (usually the frozen concentrate) to their taste prefference.

Carbing......buy a keg set up....you won't regret it.

I could be mistaken but i think the mass produced cider makers make a recipe similar to mine and then cut it down with water to hit their ABV marks. Which from a manufacturing aspect makes sense as you get a consistant product that way which i'm sure is what they are after.

Paps said:

Many a beer starts out at 1.050 or lower and finish at say 1.010.

Sure, you can nudge that same yeast to drop down to 1.000 but it often takes some encouragement from the brewer to make a yeast that usually putzes out at a higher mark hit that mark.

After all it's sugar in the beer as well.

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The sugar in beer wort is more complex, and the last 10 points of gravity are left. In cider it's all simple sugars, so even beer yeast will take it lower without too much trouble.

I never said it was `too much trouble` and what you said doesn't change that what i said is true. I allready stated that an ale yeast `CAN` get down to 1.000, just it's not allways a garunteed thing.
Overpitching,underpitching,fermentation temperature,available yeast nutrient,ect,ect are all things that will affect how much sugar eating yeasts will do but i'm not trying to overwhelm the O.P. with all that info ATM. What i AM doing is try to guide him to the right brewing yeast to let him achieve his desired cider in a manner that won't seem complicated or discourage him from continuing the hobby of homebrewing.

I know most people like fast fermentation, but I tend to keep almost everything very cool. Hydrogen sulfide production varies among strains, but I find that many fermentations that would stink at near room temperature are very clean when kept cool. With a couple exceptions I don't use nutrients and am going out of my way to get juice with low nitrogenous content whenever possible. I want a slow fermentation.

...just another option.

cheers--
--Michael

mwilcox said:

I know most people like fast fermentation, but I tend to keep almost everything very cool. Hydrogen sulfide production varies among strains, but I find that many fermentations that would stink at near room temperature are very clean when kept cool. With a couple exceptions I don't use nutrients and am going out of my way to get juice with low nitrogenous content whenever possible. I want a slow fermentation.

...just another option.

cheers--
--Michael

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Great points about low temperature fermentation and slow fermentation - That applies to bread as well as wine.. but I am not sure I agree with what I think you are suggesting about there being no need to feed the yeast nutrients. Grapes are near perfect in the nutrients they can provide yeast. Honey is at the extreme opposite in its lack of nutrients and most fruit fall somewhere in the middle. I guess I routinely add DAP because I would rather make an unnecessary nitrogen addition than ask my yeast to struggle with too little

Bryan19836 said:

OK gang, I've got some awesome feedback, and I can't thank you enough.

Now I'm looking for a solid executive summary of what I need to do moving forward. If I'm dead-wrong anywhere, let me know:

Existing batch:

• Let it sit in the bottles for a few months and hope the catpiss odour goes away?

Next batch:

• pick a milder yeast, and don't rush the process

• use yeast nutrient

• keep cats out of the carboy

Am I missing anything?

Click to expand...

I'd let that "catpiss" cider age about 6 months, that catpiss flavour/odor may just age out. Aging can fix a lot of things, but not everything. I've never heard of hydrogen sulfide being described as "cat piss," I've always heard it described as (and I agree) "rotten eggs," or Gary, IN. I'm not disputing Bernard, I'm just saying that's what my experience has been. I've gotten juice that has had a higher sulfur content than others & therefore smelled worse whilst fermenting. I've also gotten juice that turned out a bit bitter post-fermentation. I've also used cheap, no-name juice that fermented just fine.

For future brews, I'd use an ale yeast, like Nottingham or S-04 / S-05; Ale yeasts don't strip out flavor the way wine yeasts do & are usually ready to drink much sooner. You might try using malt extract instead of cane sugar, it'll add a nice flavour & a bit of body to your cider. You might also try a graff:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=117117

I always add yeast nutrient/energizer/DAP to my cider/graff. Aeration before yeast pitch & (to a lesser extent) during the 1st 1/2 of primary fermentation. Keep your fermentation temps on the low side for the yeast strain you use & remember that actual fermentation temps can be as much 10*F. higher than the ambient temp.

Hope that helps. Regards, GF.

gratus fermentatio said:

I'd let that "catpiss" cider age about 6 months, that catpiss flavour/odor may just age out. Aging can fix a lot of things, but not everything. I've never heard of hydrogen sulfide being described as "cat piss," I've always heard it described as (and I agree) "rotten eggs," or Gary, IN. I'm not disputing Bernard, I'm just saying that's what my experience has been. I've gotten juice that has had a higher sulfur content than others & therefore smelled worse whilst fermenting. I've also gotten juice that turned out a bit bitter post-fermentation. I've also used cheap, no-name juice that fermented just fine.

For future brews, I'd use an ale yeast, like Nottingham or S-04 / S-05; Ale yeasts don't strip out flavor the way wine yeasts do & are usually ready to drink much sooner. You might try using malt extract instead of cane sugar, it'll add a nice flavour & a bit of body to your cider. You might also try a graff:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=117117

I always add yeast nutrient/energizer/DAP to my cider/graff. Aeration before yeast pitch & (to a lesser extent) during the 1st 1/2 of primary fermentation. Keep your fermentation temps on the low side for the yeast strain you use & remember that actual fermentation temps can be as much 10*F. higher than the ambient temp.

Hope that helps. Regards, GF.

Click to expand...

I am wondering if it really smells like cat urine. Or does that mean that it smells bad? Fermenting cider definitely smells like sulfur (rotten eggs, farts). As that fades, it gets better. In a way, the sulfur is how you know you're drinking something authentic and homemade - Angry Orchard doesn't have that (it tastes like green apple Jolly Rancher soda).

gratus fermentatio said:

I've never heard of hydrogen sulfide being described as "cat piss," I've always heard it described as (and I agree) "rotten eggs," or Gary, IN.

Click to expand...

LOL

I used to live in South Bend Indiana,some of the locals have started calling it "East Gary" its no wonder that Notre Dame has its own zip code so that it can say that its not in South Bend.

Given its reputation as a prima Donna yeast and tendency to crap out on beer I started using S-33 with cider.

Or, if you are using cheap juice and are also impatient check put the recipe database for Graff. Adding some malt extract gives the cider extra body, as some dextrins will be left behind post fermentation. I have subbed the hops in that recipe for cloves and cinnamon, as well.

ericbw said:

I am wondering if it really smells like cat urine. Or does that mean that it smells bad? Fermenting cider definitely smells like sulfur (rotten eggs, farts). As that fades, it gets better. In a way, the sulfur is how you know you're drinking something authentic and homemade - Angry Orchard doesn't have that (it tastes like green apple Jolly Rancher soda).

Click to expand...

I don't know. I have fermented many gallons of cider and apple wine and have never succeeded in getting my cider or wine to smell of rotten eggs. What do you do to get that result? I guess because I provide the yeast nutrients, aerate several times a day, use a wine yeast and ferment at the lowest temperature that the yeast prefers I have never been able to get that smell that you say is always found in cider...I guess I am just unlucky that way...

You didn't see this character lurking about did you?

bernardsmith said:

I don't know. I have fermented many gallons of cider and apple wine and have never succeeded in getting my cider or wine to smell of rotten eggs. What do you do to get that result? I guess because I provide the yeast nutrients, aerate several times a day, use a wine yeast and ferment at the lowest temperature that the yeast prefers I have never been able to get that smell that you say is always found in cider...I guess I am just unlucky that way...

Click to expand...

My guess is that you just don't smell it. But that's just a guess.

It's not do much rotten eggs, it's sulfur, and rotten eggs also smell that way.

bernardsmith said:

Great points about low temperature fermentation and slow fermentation - That applies to bread as well as wine.. but I am not sure I agree with what I think you are suggesting about there being no need to feed the yeast nutrients. Grapes are near perfect in the nutrients they can provide yeast. Honey is at the extreme opposite in its lack of nutrients and most fruit fall somewhere in the middle. I guess I routinely add DAP because I would rather make an unnecessary nitrogen addition than ask my yeast to struggle with too little

Click to expand...

a lot of people agree with you, and that's fair. What I'm saying is that when the yeast are not working that hard (slowly) they are not needing as many nutrients. Think of keeving, which I do only occasionally - we are intentionally trying to starve the yeast of nutrients. Basically what I am saying is that there are plenty of nutrients for a slow fermentation, just not a fast one. I go out of my way for those low nitrogen sources, so I'm not going to add it back in (granted I am after high sugar content too, not just low N.) But, if people have a system that works, they should keep doing it. (I absolutely do staggered nutrient additions with my mead)

I thought that keeving was in fact very challenging ... and a great deal of preparation needs to be done to ensure that it is successful.