Therminator, Ice Water, Whirlpool... question

Well, here is the "idea"...

Utilize (2) march pumps
(1) Therminator
(1) 10 gallons of ICE water

During the boil I clean my MLT.
Refill MLT with water and (3) gallons of ICE

After boil is complete operate ONE pump to recirc boiling wort through THERMINATOR back to the kettle to help sanitize therminator.

To chill, run both pumps at full flow. One to recirc ice water from MLT to the chiller and back to the MLT. The other pump will recirc the wort through the Therminator to the kettle through a QD fitting on the side of the kettle that is attached to a length of LocLine on the INside of the BK.

The PID thermocouple in the BK would monitor temp.

Would this work? I am looking to spend some money is all, is this an effective way to spend money?

That is more or less my plan Pol. Except I have my dual coil thing instead of the Therminator. I just got my second pump so I can finally put my plan into action. I have been using a 15' CFC in place of my second coil.

Anyway, My plan is to run the hose water over the ice and through the chiller until the wort gets to about 120, then start circulating the ice water (and maybe add a bit more ice). That way, your cooling water is always close to 32, but you don't waste as much ice during the initial cool down. I collect the initial cooling water (now HOT) for cleaning, like you do now I think.

If you want to go back to chilling your beer, this setup will get you to pitching temps in literally 15 minutes on a 10g batch. I say literally because the actual chilling time will likely be around 10 minutes, but circulation, cleaning, and connections take some time and you should count all that in a head to head with no-chill.

Worth the cost IMO.

Why not utilize tap water to knock out the first 80º or so? It'll be just about as fast and save a lot of ice. I suspect 10 gals of ice water will be 80º pretty fast, at which point you need to add more ice.

Also, you don't really need another march pump for the ice water. You can use a much cheaper, higher flow rate, pond pump for that. I think a march pump just for pumping ice water is way overkill (pricewise), unless you have another brewing purpose in mind.

Lil' Sparky said:

Also, you don't really need another march pump for the ice water. You can use a much cheaper, higher flow rate, pond pump for that. I think a march pump just for pumping ice water is way overkill (pricewise), unless you have another brewing purpose in mind.

Click to expand...

Do you know what it is like dragging hoses in the winter in Indiana? The ONLY way I will do this is if I can make it self contained. If I have to use a garden hose, it is game over and I wont do it.

I mean, quite literally I could probably do 5 gallons if ice (free) and 5 gallons of water in the MLT for the recirc. Again, if I am dragging hoses, I see no benefit to this whole setup as it then consists of connecting hoses, dragging them through snow and ice into the garage etc. I could use as much ice as the MLT will hold, I only NEED enough water to actually recirc through the hoses, pump and therminator... anything else is wasted thermal mass in water. I can think of an EASY way to create a 20 pound ice plug to fit into my MLT and fill the rest with water.

Cleaning the setup would be easier, since I do a hot Oxi clean on the kettle anyway, I can run the recirc pump through the Therminator and to the kettle during this process.

I would prefer a March pump, simply because I could use it for other brewing purposes later in life.

Yeah, different brewing environments dictate different approaches. I brew outside and utilize hoses anyway, so that never came to mind.

Maybe some other guys here will chime in on how much ice you'll go through if you start recirculating it from the beginning. I just think it'll be more than you expect. Right now, I've got a double chiller setup. The wort first flows through a shirron plate chiller chilled with 80º+ tap water, then through a 25' coil in an ice bath. The wort exiting the shirron is < 100º, and I still go through 30-40 lbs of ice to chill 10 gals. It's a 1 pass setup to the fermenter at < 70º, but damn that's a lot of ice!

For that burning cash in your pocket... here is another project on my radar.



Basically it is a transfer station for wort. No more siphoning ever. I will use a Shurflo pump model 2088-492-144.

http://www.shurflo.com/pages/RV/rv_product_sum/rv_sum_docs/potable/park_model.html



OEM# 2088-492-144
Aftermarket # 2088-492-444
Description Intermittent duty
Multi fixture application
Voltage 115 VAC
Dimensions 8.70” x 5.00” x 4.50”
[221mm] x [127] x [113]
Flow Rate 3.3 GPM
[12.5 LPM]
Amps (Max.) 0.9
Shut-off Pressure 45 PSI
[3.1 BAR]


........................

Install the pump in a tool box with a switch and QD's hardmounted on the outside of the box. Racking, or generally moving wort would be so easy with this thing. Circulate sanitizer for a minute, hook up the QD's, and transfer super fast with no priming and no broken siphon equipment.

I have the estimate for hte whole unit around $120 and way cheaper if you have patience to find the pump on eBay.

Pol, your plan should work flawlessly IMHO.

Pol, your plan should work flawlessly IMHO. If you decide against doing this and your money is burning a hole in your pocket, you can always buy me something.

It should work flawlessly? Are you being sarcastic?

Nothing I try works that well, the first time.

FWIW, this is to chill 5 gallon batches only.

I am just looking at the Therminator saying it can cool 10 gallons to 68F with 58F water in 5 minutes? This seems pretty optomisitic. 20 pound plug of ice, mixed with 5 gallons of water... I guess there is only one way to know, try it.

Nothing optimistic about their claims, assuming high cooling flow rates at a constant 58º water. The therminator has great heat exchange properties. Hopefully for 5 gal batches, your ice will last long enough. Only way to tell for sure is try and see. Just remember, the return from the therminator is going to be HOT and it'll melt your ice fast. You won't have 10 gals of 32º water for very long.

The Pol said:

It should work flawlessly? Are you being sarcastic?

Click to expand...

Just a little. Seriously though, I am sure you can get it to work with a little fanagling here and there. Recycling the wort should really help a lot.

Well, we arent talking 10 gallons of 32F water. We are talking about 20 pounds of ICE with about 5 gallons of water. The ice itself will be noteably below 32F, right?

I cant believe that no one has tried this?

There IS another option if the ICE water isnt enough.

Fill the 10 gallon HLT with regular tap, use this first and simply exhaust that water to a bucket for cleaning.

Then use the 10 gallon MLT with ICE for the final cool down.

I would try the ICE first with a water test. If it was not suitalbe, I would take this info and try the dual 10 gallon cooler setup.

The Ice is not below 32 but it takes a large amount of energy to melt it. I think it should work.

Lil' Sparky said:

Nothing optimistic about their claims, assuming high cooling flow rates at a constant 58º water. The therminator has great heat exchange properties. Hopefully for 5 gal batches, your ice will last long enough. Only way to tell for sure is try and see. Just remember, the return from the therminator is going to be HOT and it'll melt your ice fast. You won't have 10 gals of 32º water for very long.

Click to expand...

I dont need 32F water, according to Therminator I need 58F water for 5 minutes. If I start with 32F water and a 20lb block of ice that is say 20F as thermal mass... I wan to think that I can keep 58F average for 5 minutes.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

The Ice is not below 32 but it takes a large amount of energy to melt it. I think it should work.

Click to expand...

So, if I use my chest freezer that is at 20F to freeze this block, the ice is only going to get down to 32F and that is it? I am pretty sure when exploring icing conditions in aviation it is possible for the internal temp of ice to go well below 32F.

Oh yeah, it can be, but once it goes into that water, the whole mix is going to be 32 right proper quick. The real energy for ice is in burning through the latent heat of the ice, unless you have a way to get your ice REALLY cold.

This may not work, but I am willing to try it... I aint scared.

The Pol said:

This may not work, but I am willing to try it... I aint scared.

Click to expand...

Go for it!!!:rockin:

Sawdustguy said:

Go for it!!!:rockin:

Click to expand...

I mean, it is only like $400 right?

The Pol said:

I dont need 32F water, according to Therminator I need 58F water for 5 minutes. If I start with 32F water and a 20lb block of ice that is say 20F as thermal mass... I wan to think that I can keep 58F average for 5 minutes.

Click to expand...

Inside your MLT you're going to be replacing 32º water with nearly 200º return from the therminator. It'll be below 58º for a while, but I don't know how long. Hot water negates ice really fast. I don't recirculate my ice bath (5 gals). I just have a coil that's running the wort post-plate chiller, and the ice doesn't last long at all.

Basically, you're going to (quickly) transfer the heat that's in your BK to the ice bath. You've got to have enough cold thermal mass to offset the temp differential to get to your target. I'm not a physics guy, but if you've got 10 gals of 32º in your HLT and 5 gals at 212º, I would think they would equalize at (10*32 + 5*212)/15 = 92º. I don't know if the math is right, but it's probably close. The heat exchange will take place quickly at first, but rapidly slow down as the BK drops and the coolant rises. Of course, you know this with your experience with your HERMS.

Like I said before. Try it and see. I'm kind of surprised nobody else has chimed in either.

Is there a difference in 10 gallons of 32F water and...

5 gallons of 32F water with 20 pounds of solid ICE in it?

I dont know.

Pol, the potential downfall I see to your plan is pellet hop sludge. Plate chillers can clog like nobody's business and because you use pellet hops so frequently, it might be worth considering. I chill with a CFC, and I get nervous using pellet hops in a greater quantity that an ounce without having some leaf in the kettle to act as a filter bed. Do you have any kind of hop filter on the diptube exiting the keggle? If not, you're going to need one.

Sure. Add 20 lbs of ice to 5 gals and you're going to melt 1/2 as much of it as you would if you added it to 10 gals.

To answer the question I think you were trying to ask... if the 10 gals is above your target temp, you'd probably be better off just using 5 gals, because you're going to expend some of your cold ice just to cool the extra HLT volume.

flyangler18 said:

Pol, the potential downfall I see to your plan is pellet hop sludge. Plate chillers can clog like nobody's business and because you use pellet hops so frequently, it might be worth considering. I chill with a CFC, and I get nervous using pellet hops in a greater quantity that an ounce without having some leaf in the kettle to act as a filter bed. Do you have any kind of hop filter on the diptube exiting the keggle? If not, you're going to need one.

Click to expand...

I indeed do...

Lil' Sparky said:

Sure. Add 20 lbs of ice to 5 gals and you're going to melt 1/2 as much of it as you would if you added it to 10 gals.

To answer the question I think you were trying to ask... if the 10 gals is above your target temp, you'd probably be better off just using 5 gals, because you're going to expend some of your cold ice just to cool the extra HLT volume.

Click to expand...

I dont know what you are talking about...

My point was, we keep talking about 10 gallons of 32F water. I am not using 10 gallons of 32F water.

I am talking about using 5 gallons of 32F water with 20 pounds of ICE in it. Is the thermal mass of this greater than the thermal mass of 10 gallons of 32F water?

The Pol said:

Well, here is the "idea"...

Utilize (2) march pumps
(1) Therminator
(1) 10 gallons of ICE water

Click to expand...

Make up your mind. You're the one that said 10 gals of ice water in your first post.

Anyway, I answered your question if you read what I wrote. It depends on the temp of your tap water. If your tap water is higher than your target wort temp, using more of it only eats up the chilling potential of your ice.

The Pol said:

I mean, it is only like $400 right?

Click to expand...

Have you considered the plate chillers from Duda? The 30 plate model is equivalent in volume and surface area to the therminator for less than half the cost.

Next summer, I'm moving to a counterflow chiller for the incoming tap water and a plate chiller for the wort. I would use a plate chiller for both, but I already have a counterflow chiller.

Interesting 30 plate chiller for $85... because it doesnt say Blingman

Or a 30 plate that is 12 x 3 x 3 for $110

Blingman is 7.5 x 4 x 3

The Pol said:

Is there a difference in 10 gallons of 32F water and...

5 gallons of 32F water with 20 pounds of solid ICE in it?

I dont know.

Click to expand...

Yes. There is a huge difference. That is what I was trying to say before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_heat

Basically, ice water remains at 32 degrees until all the ice is melted because all the energy is being spent within the solution to melt the ice not warm the water (not that simple but it gets the point across). Melting the ice takes a lot of energy and therefore gives you a lot of cooling potential. I would guess it would be enough cooling potential.

If I wasn't so slammed at work I would run the math for you. A pretty rudementary calc should get you a good idea if it will work.

Boerderij_Kabouter said:

Yes. There is a huge difference. That is what I was trying to say before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_heat

Basically, ice water remains at 32 degrees until all the ice is melted because all the energy is being spent within the solution to melt the ice not warm the water (not that simple but it gets the point across). Melting the ice takes a lot of energy and therefore gives you a lot of cooling potential. I would guess it would be enough cooling potential.

If I wasn't so slammed at work I would run the math for you. A pretty rudementary calc should get you a good idea if it will work.

Click to expand...

Thanks BK, logically in my mind this seems reasonable. It takes A LOT to melt ice, not so much to heat water. If I can build a self contained cooling apparatus, I will be happy. Those Duda plate chillers look nice too... some are HUGE, they are half the price of the Blingman.

The duda plates are nice. I use the the large 30 plate model. Word of warning. Increase the size of your hopstopper. I used the same hopstopper. The last Begian I made I bagged my hops and didn't there would be any problem with the 1/2 OZ of finely ground orange peel tossed in at the end. After several clogs and back flushing(wasted wort) I finished cooling. Then it took 2 oven cleaning cycles to burn out the remaining orange peel from the plate.

I am not sure about that duda thing. Each plate provides 0.151 sq. ft. of cooling surface area for a total of 4.53 sq. ft. with the 30 plate.

I am not sure because Blichmann hasn't completed there new site, but I believe the Blichmann had around 6.5 sq. ft. of surface area.

To put it in perspective, the Duda has the same surface area as a 17' x 1/2" immersion chiller. Granted it has a higher efficiency (not by much if you whirlpool) but that isn't to much cooling power IMO. Assuming the Thermonator is 6.5 sq. feet that is a 25' equivelent immersion chiller. Again the efficiency plays out to some effect.

Thanks BK... money isnt REALLY an option, but I dont want to get raped for a label.

The Blichmann claims to chill 10 gallons of wort in 5 minutes to 68*F using 58*F cooling water at 5 gpm.



This graph is used to predict the gallons per minute (gpm) of wort you'll be able to chill from boiling down to 68oF (ideal fermentation start temp) using water from your garden hose as the cooling media.

1) Measure the cooling water flow rate in your brewery using a bucket of known volume and a stop-watch (gal/min). Then measure the cooling water temperature using an accurate thermometer.

2) Choose either the blue (5.0 gpm), cyan (3.0 gpm), or green (2.0 gpm) line that best matches your cooling water flow rate. If your flow lies between these lines, it is acceptable to interpolate between them.

3) Go to the point on the Y axis labeled "Cooling Water Temp (F)" to your cooling water temperature measured in step (1).

4) Draw a horizontal line to intersect the cooling water flow rate line you selected previously (Blue, Cyan or Green) in step (2)

5) Draw a vertical line at the intersection point down to the X axis labeled "Wort Flow (gpm) and read the wort chill flow rate you'll get at your brewery!

Example: If you have 58F cooling water and 5 GPM of flow, draw a horizontal line (see dark line in graph above) at 58F over to the blue line. Draw a vertical line (see dark line in graph above) from the intersection point down to the X-axis and read 2.0 GPM.

http://www.blichmannengineering.com/therminator/therminator.html

Yes, I have seen that chart...

Duda has a 20 plate chiller that is 11.25 x 4.56...

Isnt that like 7' of surface area? It is $149

They also have a 30 plate that is 12.4 x 2.8...

Isnt that like 7.21' of surface? It is $110

BK I think this is the plate in question. http://cgi.ebay.com/M-30-Plate-Braz...ash=item35a3e274f3&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262
This plate provides 7.2 sq ft of surface area if my calcs are right. I defer to you to figure out all the other tech jargon listed as most of it is above my head unless I'm comparing it to a similar tech sheet.

I too was wondering if Blingman is any better than a Duda plate. I also say several plates on ebay. 30 plate 4.5w x 12L for $179, but it has 1" nipples.

Some guy left a review of the 4.5' Duda plate on thier site, said he cooled his wort to 80F from boiling in one pass.

Now increase the surface area by 60% and I think the $110 Duda plate that is 7.2' would do a helluva job.

It does. Just make sure you keep the crap out of it.