Wine Barrel Lambic Project

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jezter6

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Ok, Claphamsa, Ryan_PA and myself bought a french oak wine barrel and are planning on making some serious lambic. I think the barrel size is 65 gallons and the plan is to fill it up, and then take 1/2 out every year and add in new to replace what we take and then year 2 or 3 we'd empty it all.

What kind of things do we need to know for making such a huge batch? Starter size? How many bugs do we need, etc?

Anyone who's done wine barrel Belgians want to chime in with tips, advice, etc???

Thanks!!!
 
__________________________________________________________________________________

Edit - 08/24/09
Adding relevant links:

  • My post with good feedback on Babble Belt - Link
  • Discussion on which type of wheat should be used - Link
  • Link to winery we scored the barrel from (they have more) - Link
  • My writeup on artificially aging hops -Link
__________________________________________________________________________________

Based on my reading and asking here are some things I consider best practice:
  • For Primary fermentation, leave about 10G of headspace in the barrel
  • Once primary is done, top up with more lambic
  • 60%-40% pils to unmalted wheat is a traditional grist
  • Aged hops are traditional, Oldsock has been supplementing with Hallertau Select with 1.5% AA with good results
I plan to brew a 5G lambic in the coming weeks with the intent of using this as a starter for the barrel. Is this a good approach?

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Well get a basic recipe and pictures up tonight! (by we i mean ryan)

We have a tentative date for October to brew, and we need to figure out how you go about brewing a 50+ gallon lambic!

Also, most recipes have about 3 OZ of aged hops. I have 15 (or so) of aged halletaur, is the 3 OZ per 5 gallons a strict amount? or is it flexible?
 
How big is the system you are working with? There was a thread recently on babblebelt where one of the members received two barrels from Vinny and filled one up in a single brewday. He included his schedule so you might be able to mimic it pending your batch capacity.

The Burgundian Babble Belt -- Pushing the Homebrew Envelope

My other suggestion would be to seek out another local setup to borrow.
 
How big is the system you are working with? There was a thread recently on babblebelt where one of the members received two barrels from Vinny and filled one up in a single brewday. He included his schedule so you might be able to mimic it pending your batch capacity.

The Burgundian Babble Belt -- Pushing the Homebrew Envelope

My other suggestion would be to seek out another local setup to borrow.

interesting, hopefully we can get a bigger system from someone, and if not, well have to borrow lots of small ones, since it took him 14 hours..... with no 6 hour mashes, and 3 hour boils :)
 
In my barrel project there were 9 people pitching 55 gallons into the barrel as that is the size of ours. In doing so we still had about 3" below the Bung hole (hehe) to the level of the beer.

There were 11 packages of Roselare purchased for it as we started fermenting the stuff at our houses before it was all brought together at mine for the barrel.

build a good stand more than 2 hours before you fill the beer. That will save you some stress, i know.

Have a sour beer party and then toss the dregs into the barrel. Hey, it can't hurt!


Have fun!
 
In my barrel project there were 9 people pitching 55 gallons into the barrel as that is the size of ours. In doing so we still had about 3" below the Bung hole (hehe) to the level of the beer.

There were 11 packages of Roselare purchased for it as we started fermenting the stuff at our houses before it was all brought together at mine for the barrel.

build a good stand more than 2 hours before you fill the beer. That will save you some stress, i know.

Have a sour beer party and then toss the dregs into the barrel. Hey, it can't hurt!


Have fun!

What do you mean by a good stand? (it will be in my basement, and I dont want any accidents). Are you worrying about rolling? or filling?
 
Mike, I think all shares are spoken for. But who knows, someone might be willing to kick 5g your way at some point or another.

Who knows if yr 2 all 3 of us are still wanting to do this. Hopefully Stefin is if the barrel will be in his basement!!!
 
oh damn! I didn't realize that just the 3 of you were splitting 55 gallons!!! That is a lot of lambic. Im sure I will still be stealing some from each of you at some point in time so that is fine with me :D
 
What do you mean by a good stand? (it will be in my basement, and I dont want any accidents). Are you worrying about rolling? or filling?

Both. The stand will allow you to put the round barrel on a flat surface. You don't want it growing legs, so to speak, and rolling over during either the fill or ferment... God help you if it rolls during the ferment after a year of impatient waiting and the contents leak out on the floor! :D
 
oh damn! I didn't realize that just the 3 of you were splitting 55 gallons!!! That is a lot of lambic. Im sure I will still be stealing some from each of you at some point in time so that is fine with me :D

Well, the plan is to make 55, but then only take out 1/2 next year (~10g ea) and then 1/2 again the following year, and then the last year it will be all 55 going out. At least that's what the "plan" is for the max brew length of the barrel.

That way there's always 55g IN the barrel and we're constantly blending in new, fresh wort for the buggies to feed on.
 
Make sure your barrel is on a cradle about 2" high so you can rack into it and most importantly OUT. That is unless one of you has a self priming wine transfer pump.

Granted our barrel was already inoculated with a lambic blend from the previous Flanders project, but there are two trains of thought on this. Start fermentation with neutral yeast, then rack to barrel and pitch a 5 gallon starter of lambic blend. You can also ferment it right away with a pitch of lambic blend starter but you'll then have to do blending to taste later because straight lambic is pretty undrinkable. We did the former so the product coming out of the barrel goes right into the keg.
 
Bobby,

I think the plan would be to pitch with a normal yeast, then do bugs. But at the 1 year mark, we'd be adding fresh wort to what should only be bugs left over. Are you saying the 2nd year take would be a "straight undrinkable lambic" ??
 
oh damn! I didn't realize that just the 3 of you were splitting 55 gallons!!! That is a lot of lambic. Im sure I will still be stealing some from each of you at some point in time so that is fine with me :D

im sure you will! and its not like were just taking 55 G a year.... were leaving tons in there every year.
 
What do you mean by a good stand? (it will be in my basement, and I dont want any accidents). Are you worrying about rolling? or filling?

A good stand to get it up off of the floor for when you transfer out of the barrel. A good stand so the night you make it and fill it you are not waking up all night to go down 2 flights of stairs to check on it constantly worried about you level of craftmenship when putting it together.

Really though, you just dont want the barrel to move around a lot.
 
Bobby,

I think the plan would be to pitch with a normal yeast, then do bugs. But at the 1 year mark, we'd be adding fresh wort to what should only be bugs left over. Are you saying the 2nd year take would be a "straight undrinkable lambic" ??

I'm thinking in terms of how much of the sugars were consumed by either bugs or beer yeast. A barrel fully fermented from a 5 gallon lambic blend, by itself, would be considered straight unblended lambic. When you take a share out of there after a year, you'll probably want to blend that or add some kind of fruit concentrate to the keg (e.g. sour cherry to make a kreik).

In our case, we fermented about half way with either WLP001 or (loosely whatever belgian strain someone had on hand). I think I fermented my portion with a Wit strain. After 3 days on those yeasts in carboys whathaveyou, it went into the barrel that had a slurry of lambic blend in the bottom and certainly all infused into the wood. The cherry was added 3 months later. It's wonderful at 7 months. If we were to solera this barrel now, I'd probably still add partially pre-fermented wort to keep the sourness at bay to a certain degree only to avoid blending after taking shares from the barrel.
 
The plan is:

Day 1: Fill to 55g, pitch yeast
Day xx: Pitch bugs
Year 1: Pull out 30 gallons of lambic, put in 30g wort.
Year 2: Pull out 30g lambic, put in 30g wort.
Year 3: "" "" ""

Are you saying that at the 1 year marks, the fresh wort going in should be pitched with normal yeast AND bugs? or normal yeast and fermented outside the barrel for a month or two THEN put in with the older lambic?
 
I think the point is, the beer will get more progressively sour. There is a point were you begin to create vinegar, but I do not think we will encounter this with our approach.

I am not 100% on adding a clean ale strain to the wort first. I know this is the technique Jamil advocates for, but he is not a fan of the sour end of the spectrum. He even says that Rodenbach Grand Cru is too much for him. I disagree. I believe a traditional lambic is fermented with an ale yeast while the brett, pedio and other bugs grow in porportion. I would prefer to pitch the lambic blend as is, no additional clean ale.
 
me too!, also my neighbor is a carpenter, and we discussed building a stand, and have a plan! his timing sucks, but hes very good. and brew day is 2 months away! so we should be ok :p
 
I'm not necessarily advocating either way, just letting you know how we did it. I personally can handle just about any level of sourness now. I've tasted some old straight lambics that tasted like equal portions of vinegar, acetone, and battery acid and thought... hmmm, interesting. The reason I didn't trust a ferment on the lambic blend in full was because more than half the participants in the barrel thought rodenbach red was off the deep end. I wanted them to enjoy the beer and acclimate to sours.
 
after a year the primary yeast if any will be dormant

if you add 30 gallons of fresh worth the brett and other bugs will take hold before the other yeast. creating a more sour beer. if you start with a blend the blend will be way off after year and the next batch will taste much different.

tho this can also be taken care of after by blending a non sour with your sour to your taste. but it's all up to the brewer i anyway your going to learn something and have some beer
 
Ryan,

I was at the LHBS last night and he said he would set aside the last pack of Roselare that he had in stock.

Let me know if I should buy it now or tell him to put it back in regular stock.
 
I have a pack of Wyeast Lambic blend. That in my starter batch should be enough to inoculate the barrel. I imagine on brew weekend, we will have several lambics for tasting, we can also pitch the dregs in the bottles.

I do not think we will need the Roselare for this brew.

I think we do have an open question for the brewers who "go big". For our brew day, we have access to a 55g mashtun and a 55g boil kettle. I think the rough math has the total boil kettle weight clocked in around 600 lbs. I am not sure my propane burner is going to hold it up, and I do not want to know what happens in the event of a critical failure. My thought is to use either angle iron, or some type of scrap metal across cinder blocks to reinforce the kettle on the burner. IS there any other trick I am not considering?
 
I have followed this thread that is a couple of Mass boys doing a Russian River Consecration style project, also in a barrel. Aside from all the amuzing banter, they have brewed it, although it is not in the barrel yet.

They have talked about alot of the things you all are discussing. Might be good to pick each others brains.

They did the brew day with multiple rigs then did a combined ferment on yeast. I would think mutiple rigs would be easier to manage successfully than one big rig. YMMV.
 
You might be able to fit 2 or 3 burners under a 55 gal drum. I would take cynder blocks and build up a stand to hold the drum just an inch or so taller than the burners. That way all of the weight would be on the cynder blocks and not the burners. I would think that 3 burners should be able to handle that volume too.
 
I think you have to ferment out the new wort every year and rack it in to the barrel. You can always adjust how much you take out/leave in the barrel to get the right level of sourness.

Interesting project btw. Look forward to following your progress.
 
Here is the current version of the recipe we are working on, basic as it gets:
Lambic

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

20-A Lambic & Belgian Sour Ale, Straight Lambic-style Ale

Min OG: 1.044 Max OG: 1.056
Min IBU: 10 Max IBU: 15
Min Clr: 4 Max Clr: 15 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 60.00 Wort Size (Gal): 60.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 109.09
Anticipated OG: 1.052 Plato: 12.82
Anticipated SRM: 3.2
Anticipated IBU: 14.1
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 240 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 150.00 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.021 SG 5.26 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
70.0 76.36 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
30.0 32.73 lbs. Wheat Unmalted Belgium 1.038 2

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops (Saaz listed, may use other low AA sub, or aged hops)

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
10.91 oz. Czech Saaz Whole 3.50 14.1 60 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3526 Brettanomyces Lambicus (5 gallon starter batch to be pitched with barrel wort, 2 separate 5 gallon batches will get individual pitches)


Mash Schedule
-------------
Will follow either turbid mash or wyeast mash process in Wild Brews
 
Holy Shnikes!

150g pre-boil?????

Even 2 of the big pots aint gonna do that.

Also, I thought we were doing a 50g final + 5 starter = 55g in a 60g fermenter?
 
Yeah, we will have to boil the first runnings, add second runnings, boil, add third... to accommodate the pre boil. We will need to use the big kettle and some keggles I assume. Something tells me our volume is gonn be wrong since there is so much psudo guess work. We need to err on the high side.

We need to get 55G in the barrel (50G fresh wort + 5G starter). This will leave 10G head space since it is a 65G barrel. We also need 10G of lambic with individual yeast pitches outside of the barrel to top up once primary completes. I really think we should assume we will have 15G of extra to be safe.

I did confirm from somone that used the 55G setup that my burner will hold a full kettle, so we should be cool as-is, although, I may still bring some cinder blocks to be safe...
 
Well, if you have access to a truck - we have possibly 2 kettles and 2 mash tuns - all of the 55g drum variety.

I think Stefin's gonna have to get up at 5am just to get the water ready. Getting that much strike and sparge up to temp is gonna take a few hours. :)
 
Anyone want to brew a coffee stout for brewday?

I have a pickup for the add'l drums. Can we pick them up on Friday?
 
We can pick them up any day after Wednesday.

I'm starting to think I need to take Friday off just to get this whole thing done. :)

We might have to brew in shifts over a few days - one guy sleeping, 2 guys working.

I can just see the guy falling asleep during the boil and waking up to massive boilover.
 
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