Amber Waves - revisited

Hey guys, I just finished watching the Good Eats episode on brewing. I know ya'll have discussed it before, but I still have some questions and I didn't want to hijack an old thread, so here I go:

1) With a total of only 25 min boil time, how does this affect the hot break and how can you get a decent amount of bittering?

2) I know one would normally not leave the grain in the boil but if the boil time is that short, would it still impart off flavors to the wort?

3) How much difference would it make to use table sugar instead of corn sugar?

4) Have many of you tried this technique/recipe? What did you think of the results?

omniscientomar said:

Hey guys, I just finished watching the Good Eats episode on brewing. I know ya'll have discussed it before, but I still have some questions and I didn't want to hijack an old thread, so here I go:

1) With a total of only 25 min boil time, how does this affect the hot break and how can you get a decent amount of bittering?

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The hot break for me happens in about 10 minutes, so 25 min is plenty long.

omniscientomar said:

and how can you get a decent amount of bittering?

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use a lot of hops, or at least a very high AA hop.

omniscientomar said:

2) I know one would normally not leave the grain in the boil but if the boil time is that short, would it still impart off flavors to the wort?

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If the PH of the water is right and you get the grains above 180ish, you will extract tannins. I would say that less boiling time would mean less tannins, but they would still be there.

omniscientomar said:

3) How much difference would it make to use table sugar instead of corn sugar?

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corn sugar ferments out and leaves no real residual taste. table sugar reportedly leaves a "cidery" taste behind when it ferments.

omniscientomar said:

4) Have many of you tried this technique/recipe? What did you think of the results?

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Nope. never tried it.

I too watched that episode and it got me very interested in brewing. That said, after learning the techniques needed to make quality beer I followed the advice of more experienced brewers who did not feel that Alton's show reflected the steps needed to brew quality beer.

I am a fan of Good Eats, and when I saw this episode I was inspired to try my hand at home brewing. I quickly learned, when I found a LHBS, about the glaring errors in Alton's methodology. I did use his recipe, minus the liquid yeast and table sugar for priming, but made changes to his method.

I did not boil the grains, only steeped at 155˚F for 30 min in a grain bag and removed. I increased the boil time to 60 minutes. I did not take the chance of hot side aeration by pouring the hot wort through a strainer into the fermenter, nor did I take the chance of contamination of the wort by cooling it by dumping it directly onto ice.

I cooled it in the kettle in the sink with an ice bath, then poured it into the fermenter and topped it off with chilled spring water. Pitched some dry yeast instead of the vile of liquid yeast that Alton used. Fermented for two weeks instead of one week, and used corn sugar for priming.

It was my first beer, and the ingredients in Alton's recipe made a really great beer! However, I think that if his methodology was followed to the letter, it may not have turned out so good.

John

Just like I thought...

Google "Amber Waves."

Porn star.

HAD to be the case, didn't it?

johnsma22 said:

I did use his recipe, minus the liquid yeast and table sugar for priming, but made changes to his method.

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Haha, so basically you didn't follow his recipe at all and instead did a standard grain steep method? What steps did you actually use from the episode?

the_bird said:

Just like I thought...

Google "Amber Waves."

Porn star.

HAD to be the case, didn't it?

Click to expand...

I think you might be gunning for Cheese as our resident "Porn Authority". Now pay the fine people some money so we can see your avatars!

panacea said:

Haha, so basically you didn't follow his recipe at all and instead did a standard grain steep method? What steps did you actually use from the episode?

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I really did not follow any of his steps. I stated that his methodology was wrong in many areas, but I used his grain bill, his recommendation for malt extract, and the hops he used. I used S04 dry yeast instead of a pitchable tube from Whitelabs, and corn sugar for priming instead of table sugar.

By using standard, widely accepted methods, and most of Alton's recommended ingredients, the result was a really great beer.

John

Ok I have another question.

This whole extract, partial grain, mini mash, all grain has me cornfused I tell ya.

Is what Alton did an extract brew? Most kits I see have some grains included and a grain bag to steep them. Is that considered an extract kit?

I know it doesn't really matter what the terms are but I'd like to kind of know what I'm talking about or asking.

Thanks

Todd said:

Ok I have another question.

This whole extract, partial grain, mini mash, all grain has me cornfused I tell ya.

Is what Alton did an extract brew? Most kits I see have some grains included and a grain bag to steep them. Is that considered an extract kit?

I know it doesn't really matter what the terms are but I'd like to kind of know what I'm talking about or asking.

Thanks

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Alton did an extract + speciality grains. No mashing involved. (Mashing means turing starch in the grain into sugar.... he didn't specify what grain he used, but I assume it was a crystal/caramel malt that had no starch to offer.)

I don't know if there is an 'official' chart, but my take on it is this:

• extract only: absolutely no grains involved
• extract + speciality grains: a little grain for color/flavor, but no starch->sugar conversion
• mini-mash: extract for most of the fermentables, but some starchy grain to provide color, flavor, and some starch->sugar conversion for additional fermentables
• partial-grain: arguably the same as mini-mash, but perhaps using mostly mashed grain for fermentables with a slight bit of extract.
• all-grain: extract is not allowed anywhere near the brew.

-walker

Walker-san said:

Alton did an extract + speciality grains. No mashing involved. (Mashing means turing starch in the grain into sugar.... he didn't specify what grain he used, but I assume it was a crystal/caramel malt that had no starch to offer.)

I don't know if there is an 'official' chart, but my take on it is this:

• extract only: absolutely no grains involved
• extract + speciality grains: a little grain for color/flavor, but no starch->sugar conversion
• mini-mash: extract for most of the fermentables, but some starchy grain to provide color, flavor, and some starch->sugar conversion for additional fermentables
• partial-grain: arguably the same as mini-mash, but perhaps using mostly mashed grain for fermentables with a slight bit of extract.
• all-grain: extract is not allowed anywhere near the brew.

-walker

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Thanks Walker. I've still yet to brew my first batch, I'm thinking that will help me get a better feel on things.

Todd said:

Thanks Walker. I've still yet to brew my first batch, I'm thinking that will help me get a better feel on things.

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I would avoid "extract only" brews. As Alton said, this would be like eating chicken that was not spiced or marinaded or anything. Pretty bland....

A little specialty grain steeped in the water prior to boiling and adding extract will make a HUGE difference in the beer.

-walker

Walker-san said:

I would avoid "extract only" brews. As Alton said, this would be like eating chicken that was not spiced or marinaded or anything. Pretty bland....

A little specialty grain steeped in the water prior to boiling and adding extract will make a HUGE difference in the beer.

-walker

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Thanks,

How is your holy grail porter? is that a steep type recipie?

Todd said:

Thanks,

How is your holy grail porter? is that a steep type recipie?

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It's OK. I messed up when brewing and reversed the amounts of black patent and chocolate malts, so it has a burnt taste I didn't really want.

The recipe is linked to in my signature. Most of my recipes are steepers, but the Holy Grail (the last time I brewed it) was a mini-mash with some 2-row malt. That's completely optional. You can simply omit the 2-row and add another 1/2 to 1 lb of extract instead.

The NEXT time I brew it, I'll get the patent/chocolate right and add a touch of molasses to the boil.... maybe 4 top 6 oz.

Honestly, my best recipe is my IPA. The porter has potential if I get the grains right and jazz it up with the molasses.

-walker

Walker-san said:

It's OK. I messed up when brewing and reversed the amounts of black patent and chocolate malts, so it has a burnt taste I didn't really want.

The recipe is linked to in my signature. Most of my recipes are steepers, but the Holy Grail (the last time I brewed it) was a mini-mash with some 2-row malt. That's completely optional. You can simply omit the 2-row and add another 1/2 to 1 lb of extract instead.

The NEXT time I brew it, I'll get the patent/chocolate right and add a touch of molasses to the boil.... maybe 4 top 6 oz.

Honestly, my best recipe is my IPA. The porter has potential if I get the grains right and jazz it up with the molasses.

-walker

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I saw the links, that is a nice touch.

I might try that IPA recipe. I've been looking for a brew that I can call "Hops on Pop," with a picture of my little girl bouncing on my belly for a label. I'm interested in how you added the hops at five minute intervals; that makes a noticable difference?

Spyk'd said:

I think you might be gunning for Cheese as our resident "Porn Authority". Now pay the fine people some money so we can see your avatars!

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I had no idea this thread existed until just now.

My money's on the way (literally), my avatar is being planned...

the_bird said:

I might try that IPA recipe. I've been looking for a brew that I can call "Hops on Pop," with a picture of my little girl bouncing on my belly for a label. I'm interested in how you added the hops at five minute intervals; that makes a noticable difference?

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I just meaure out the hops ahead of time and put them in plastic Solo cups all stacked up in a tower. I have to baby-sit the last thirty minutes of the brew, though... every 5 minutes I dump another cup of hops in. It's a little tedious.

Does it make a noticable difference? Yes it does. The first time I made this IPA, I did relatively standard 60, 30, 15 hop additions with the same amounts of hops; 1oz@60, 2oz@30, 2oz@15, 1oz dryhop.

I was intrigued by a post Dude made about hop bursting and the method Dogfish head uses for their IPAs, so I changed to this every-5-minutes thing. It made a difference. Not that the first batch was BAD by any means, but the hop character was a lot more 'complete' with the continuous hopping.

FYI: I normally use 7 lbs of DME and 1/2 lb of carapils for head, but the recipe linked to reflects the currently fermenting batch, which was upped on DME and I forgot to add the carapils.

-walker

Are you using whole hops or pellets?

the first two batches were pellets. the third, fourth, and fifth batches were whole.

Todd said:

... I've still yet to brew my first batch...

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I like Alton; I Tivo Good Eats all the time. I'm really looking forward to his new 'travelling' show on his motorcycle! But this episde has its flaws, as others have noted. My two biggest pet peeves were the grains simply being dumped into the pot and his shoving everything into the plastic fermenter. Do that enough times andyou'll soon have a lot if tiny scratches inside the plastic wall that will eventually harbor bacteria you'll never completely eradicate. But, that episode has gotten quite a few people interested in homebrewing, and that's always a good thing.

My advice - and you may have seen this already - read this!

Hmm... learn something every day... I never ocurred to me that shoving my lid into my fermentor would put scratches in it.

Funny, I hadn't thought about scratching the inside of the bucket either. Glad I decided to use a plastic tub to sanatize with instead.

One thing I did try on my second batch was the 7lbs of ice to bring the wort down (day eight still in the primary and poping every 7-8 seconds). I realized there is some small risk with it when I decided to give it a go, but I tried to minimize that risk by searching for a bag that didn't have any rips or tears in it. It did bring the temperature down very fast! Here's to hoping it comes out alright!

Jason

To alleviate your concerns with the ice, you can do what I used to do before I had a wort chiller....

the day before you brew, boil a gallon of water, put it into a sanitized gallon mil jug, and freeze it overnight. (or just buy a gallon of water from the store, already sanitary, and freeze it.)

When you need your ice the next day for the wort, cut the plastic off and drop in the block of ice that you KNOW is clean.

-walker

Interesting idea. Did you do anything to the milk jug shaped ice cube to increase surface area and cool down time, or was the hot wort sufficient in melting it and coming down to temp?

iloman said:

Interesting idea. Did you do anything to the milk jug shaped ice cube to increase surface area and cool down time, or was the hot wort sufficient in melting it and coming down to temp?

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The wort was hot enough to melt the block of ice pretty rapidly. I gently 'bobbed' the block up an down in the bucket with a spoon to help out a bit. Once the temp got down near 100°F (cool enough to not worry about oxidation), I would stir the wort/ice with a spoon to finish the melting.

It might actually be better to make several blocks of ice that were only 1 quart in size to get the additional surface ara from the start, but one monolithic block did work fine for me.

-walker

Walker,
How much water did you have for your boil on that IPA?

I start with 3 gallons in the pot. After adding the extract, it's close to 4 gallons boiling. I lose about a gallon during the boil and to hop absorbtion.

-walker