Looking for advice on HERMS setup

I'm looking to automate my brewing. So, I'm thinking about a single tier system using HERMS.

Using a HERMS setup with LP gas (I have natural gas and might upgrade in the future), I'm thinking that I only need 2 burners: one for HLT and one for BK. The mash kettle doesn't need a burner. Plus, I'll need two pumps.

The thing that confuses me is that most HERMS systems I see online, use two PID controllers. Why? As far as I can tell, the controller is only needed on the HLT to control the temperature during the mash and sparge. The BK only goes to a boil, there's no temperature control. Correct?

So, my system would have 2 burners, 2 pumps, 1 PID controller.

What types of burners lend themselves to be controlled by a PID? How are pilot lights handled? What specific brands/models are used for the solenoid controlled valves?

Thanks.

I am in the same situation, PID + gas. What to do?

There are systems that will turn your gas on/off plus a pilot or ignitor. Ignitor is some sort of auto spark generator. Most designs I see are Honeywell brand products. They are gas furnace valves products adapted for use in a homebrewing system

I jhave made up my mind that I will not go down that path. I will not allow my burner to turn on unless I am around to supervise it. If I am standing around looking at the system anyway, I can fire uo the burner myself. For me it is a safety and cost thing. Others will tell you they do it and never have a problem. Your choice..

My design, but not built, a HERMS coil in water heated to a selected temp. Pump wort out of the mashtun, and it will hit a tee, one side of the tee passes the wort through the HERMS coil to add heat to the mash, the other side of the tee returns the wort to the top of the mash, no heat added.

There are two solenoid valvles, one on each branch of the tea. When the PID wants to add heat to the mash, the HERMS valve opens and pushes wort through the HERMS coil, the bypass valve is closed. When the PID does not want to add heat to the mash, the HERMS valve closes and the bypass valve is opened.

The pump is continously pumping wort. The PID toggles between HERMS -> Bypass -> HERMS -> Bypass. The temp of the HERMS water is critical mostly for maximizing efficiency of time. What is the optimum water temp to ramp up the mash temp? What is the optimum temp to maintain wort temp? Not sure today.

Where to put the temp sensor that triggers the PID? Between the output of the MT and the pump. An atternative would be at the output of the pump.

As far as I can see, there is a need for only 1 PID. I guess you could use a second PID to maintain temp of the HERMS coil water. But you should have a PID to measure your wort/mash temp.

Interesting concept of switching the flow to control the temp.

I was thinking of having the flow be continuous through the coil and control the temperature of the HLT to keep the mash temperature in range.

The only advantage to the burner under the MLT is being able to directly heat your strike water without transferring it into the MLT.

Apart from having an electrician wire up a 220V outlet to your garage, I was wondering why you want to specifically use gas ?

HERMS systems (like my 75 L PID controlled system) work very well with electric heating elements. Although I have no direct experience in this area, from what I've read on this forum, controlling gas burners seems to create problems which are harder to overcome.

Wheelspin said:

Apart from having an electrician wire up a 220V outlet to your garage, I was wondering why you want to specifically use gas ?

HERMS systems (like my 75 L PID controlled system) work very well with electric heating elements. Although I have no direct experience in this area, from what I've read on this forum, controlling gas burners seems to create problems which are harder to overcome.

Click to expand...

I was initially thinking of going electric, but the costs are higher. To have a 220V, 50A outlet wired into my garage will probably cost at least $400 since my main breaker box is full. I'll need a subpanel installed.

I would think that a properly constructed automated gas system would run into at least that cost because of the safety controls one would want to use with gas. That said, I've never priced building one because I started on an electric build as I didn't want to keep buying propane all the time.

For myself, I cannot wrap my head around 220 VAC used in a high liquid environment. That is just me.

I know, I know, I know all about thousands of homebrews have gone electric, everybody loves it. Blah -yada-yada-blah.

I have not heard of a single problem in the safety department. No near misses, nobody injured, no fatalities, etc. At least I am not aware of any. I admit, my skepticism is not necessarily based on a rational process.

But I cannot get over the vision of high voltage mixed with other purposed devices in kluged brewing equipment.

Maybe some day I will get around to electric brewing. My brew shed came with a 220 VAC 50 amp service. For now, it sits there, lonely and unused.

RufusBrewer said:

For myself, I cannot wrap my head around 220 VAC used in a high liquid environment. That is just me.

I know, I know, I know all about thousands of homebrews have gone electric, everybody loves it. Blah -yada-yada-blah.

I have not heard of a single problem in the safety department. No near misses, nobody injured, no fatalities, etc. At least I am not aware of any. I admit, my skepticism is not necessarily based on a rational process.

But I cannot get over the vision of high voltage mixed with other purposed devices in kluged brewing equipment.

Maybe some day I will get around to electric brewing. My brew shed came with a 220 VAC 50 amp service. For now, it sits there, lonely and unused.

Click to expand...

I always wonder how many brewers think this way but have electric hot water heaters.

sandyeggoxj said:

I always wonder how many brewers think this way but have electric hot water heaters.

Click to expand...

It isn't an electric heating element in water that bothers me. An electric water heater is an engineered, tested and proven design.

The point of home electric brewing I am leary about is the points of termination? Safe wiring is easy to do. Protecting the heating element from trauma is not difficult.

How can you do you ensure that no liquid can get into the housing? How about the housing and can it survive trauma?

I still think of an electric brewery as a collection of parts designed and engineered for a purpose other than electric brewing and made to work together. Maybe I would go with a design by somebody like Blichmann Engineering. Or a heating element design that I felt coud survive any type of rationaly posible misadventure.

As I said before, history is on the side electric brewers. I am happy that thousands of my fellow home brewers are safe and making good beer on their electric rigs.

I live in a country where 220 V is standard in all households and have had quite a few shocks, even as a kid, getting my prying little fingers into things i shouldn't.

Point is that I'm still alive and you have to quite unlucky to die from a 220 V shock.

Having said that, the system must be absolutely 100% correctly wired with all the requisite circuit breakers and trips. No question about that.

I think the costs for the electric system are higher because of:
1. the garage needs a 220V, 50A outlet wired.
2. I need to either drill my existing SS pots for the heating element or buy new. More $$. With gas, I have the pots ready to go.
3. I need to get a PID system and all the controls.

Point 3 is not quite fair since either gas or electric systems needs a PID system, but I can start with a manually controlled gas system for a while until I add the automation.

RufusBrewer : have you seen Kal's system (theelectricbrewery.com)? To my eye, it's as well engineered as anything I've seen out of a pro firm. And it's quite specifically designed to be liquid proof, robust, and as user proof as possible.

jgalak said:

RufusBrewer : have you seen Kal's system (theelectricbrewery.com)? To my eye, it's as well engineered as anything I've seen out of a pro firm. And it's quite specifically designed to be liquid proof, robust, and as user proof as possible.

Click to expand...

I have not examined the assembly details Kal's system.

I hope I do not come across as critical of any available design. Unless you take the absence of endorsement as criticism. Which is not my intent.

Anyone who doesn't have a healthy fear of mixing high-current high-voltage electricity with water probably shouldn't be brewing with electricity to begin with...

Which is what drew me to Kal's design, and whatever I end up building will be inspired by his build philosophy.

Kal's design is impressive.

I'm still not sure if I want to do electric or gas.