First time with any water adjustment

I am brewing an american wheat this weekend and am going to make my attempts at brew water adjustment. I have exceedingly hard water. And per the brewing water spreadsheet, my water is best suited in its natural state for darker, malty beers. My base water looks like this:

Ca 56
SO4 3.0
Mg 26
Na 23
Cl 10
Bicarb 302
Total Alkalinity 247

The ezwatercalculator.com site puts the chloride to sulphite ratio in the range for Very Malty (3.33) and the residual alkalinity in the rage for a 21-26 SRM color beer.

I'd like to do as much as I can without cutting my water with distilled. Messing with the spreadsheet, I can move the Chloride/Sulphite ratio into the "balanced" range (1.20 or so) by adding 1/2 gram of Epsom salt to my mash water.

The residual alkalinity does not change of course. So a couple of questions:

1. If I were to use a mash buffer like 5.2 to bring the pH down, would that be sufficient with my water? Or would I still want to mix maybe 50/50 with distilled water to combat hardness and bump the associated minerals up with water additions?

2. If I had to mix distilled water, would I want to do it only for mashing purposes? Or should I dilute my sparge water as well?

1. 5.2 works a lot of the time. However, since it's a buffer, if water is too hard to begin with, its buffering capabilites are diminished. How much i cannot tell you, nor do i know if there's an easy way to find out.

2. I mix DI and my water for every batch, as my local water is much harder than yours. When i do so, i'm usually targeting a specific city's water profile. In that case, i mix ALL my water (strike and sparge) ahead of time. Then, mineral adjustments come during the mash (half the adjusting salts), as well as in the boil (the other half of salts). When not matching a profile, the mash is the important part, because you're trying to get the pH in range to facilitate optimized conversion.

In your case, i would suggest 1:1 dilution, as well as bringing the Ca and SO4 back up with salt additions (in addition to your planned Epsom addition). As far as water dealings, cutting with DI water is the EASIEST thing you can do.

HTH

I just recently started adjusting my water profile. I too have hard water and to lower my RA, I've been adding lactic acid to my strike water. 5-6ml typically drop the RA low enough for beers in the 0-7 SRM range.

You can pick up lactic acid from most homebrew supply stores. I got a rather large bottle that will last me a long time for $4 at midwest supplies.

cactusgarrett said:

1. 5.2 works a lot of the time. However, since it's a buffer, if water is too hard to begin with, its buffering capabilites are diminished. How much i cannot tell you, nor do i know if there's an easy way to find out.

2. I mix DI and my water for every batch, as my local water is much harder than yours. When i do so, i'm usually targeting a specific city's water profile. In that case, i mix ALL my water (strike and sparge) ahead of time. Then, mineral adjustments come during the mash (half the adjusting salts), as well as in the boil (the other half of salts). When not matching a profile, the mash is the important part, because you're trying to get the pH in range to facilitate optimized conversion.

In your case, i would suggest 1:1 dilution, as well as bringing the Ca and SO4 back up with salt additions (in addition to your planned Epsom addition). As far as water dealings, cutting with DI water is the EASIEST thing you can do.

HTH

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I took your suggestions and calculated on a 2/3 distilled water dilution in my mash. I am mashing in with 4.5 gallons so that ratio worked well (3 gallons of distilled to 1.5 gallons of my house water. I will be sparging with 6 gallons (all my house water).

Based on the spreadsheet, I assumed 3g of epsom salt in the mash water and 2g in the boil kettle (since my water is low in sulfate anyway).

To bring my calcium back into acceptable range, I added 2g of Gypsum to the mash.

I then assumed 5g of NaCl to the kettle to bring my chloride to sulfate ratio back into balance.

This gave me a mash+sparge water profile of (everything in Palmer's recommended range:

Ca 51
Mg 30
Na 66
Cl 83
Sulfate 79

Residual Alkalinity 35 (recommended for 8-13 SRM. My recipe rates at 4 SRM. Close enough)

Chloride to Sulfate ratio 1.05 (shows as "balanced") on the spreadsheet.

Three questions:
1. How does that look?

2. I sunk some money into a canister of 5.2 stabilizer. With all the mineral additions I am looking at, would you suggest using 5.2 or do I run the risk of just jacking it up?

2a. I have some pH test strips that measure in the 2-6 range. Should I just use those to see where I land before considering the 5.2?

1) i think it looks much better.

2) i also use 5.2, but no more than half of what the bottle says. Technically, if you're water's in line, you shouldn't need any, but at least with basic water the 5.2 will work better. It's good peace of mind, IMH.

2a) i think the 2-6 is too broad of a range. For only $2 you can get some at your LHBS that have a range of 5.0 to 6.0, and incraments of 0.2, or something like that. THAT will get you off to a better start. That's where I started. Some iodine for the mash conversion test, then pH strips before and after i started utilizing 5.2, just to make sure everything was working.

I'm VERY anal and detail oriented, so to a RDWHAHB'er, this hurts their head. I just like to have all the data on my process as possible so i can make more informed decisions.

cactusgarrett said:

1) i think it looks much better.

2) i also use 5.2, but no more than half of what the bottle says. Technically, if you're water's in line, you shouldn't need any, but at least with basic water the 5.2 will work better. It's good peace of mind, IMH.

2a) i think the 2-6 is too broad of a range. For only $2 you can get some at your LHBS that have a range of 5.0 to 6.0, and incraments of 0.2, or something like that. THAT will get you off to a better start. That's where I started. Some iodine for the mash conversion test, then pH strips before and after i started utilizing 5.2, just to make sure everything was working.

I'm VERY anal and detail oriented, so to a RDWHAHB'er, this hurts their head. I just like to have all the data on my process as possible so i can make more informed decisions.

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My mistake. I just bought the strips from my LHBS at lunch and was counting on my very bad memory. The strips are designed to read 4.6 to 6.2 in increments of .4.

I've never measured mash ph since until recently, I did not have a reliable water profile. (I went through Ward labs to get a profile of my filtered brewing water). Do I just dunk the strip in for a few seconds and then match it to the color key in the vial?

And just so I am clear, you don't think using 5.2, even with my above mineral adjustments, will cause issues? I would hate to ruin a beer because I am doing too much fine tuning and wind up throwing something out of whack.

I am like you in the OCD department. My brewing journey has been about trying to bring the process under control one piece at a time until I am in as complete command of my quality as I can be. For me, RDWHAHB is often replaced by Relax, have a homebrew, and take note of the things I need to do differently (or do again) the next time.

I recently went to temperature controlled brewing for my ales. That process is still in the fine tuning stage. Water chemistry and increasing the size of my starter are the two big changes I am tackling this weekend. Well, that and the fact that I am going to give batch sparging a try.

To test pH, just mix your mash then let your mash paddle drip one drip on the strip. Make sure not to get any husks or solid material, as that can throw off the reading. The reading will also need to be done fairly quickly, as the dye from the strip can run/fade/change.

Like i suggested, the more you're water's in line, the less work the 5.2 will have to do in the first place. That's why i only add have the suggested amount to my adjusted water. As long as you're not adding more than a tablespoon (or whatever the jar says), you should be fine. IIRC, 5.2 is made of salts that don't affect the content of the ions you're targetting anyway. Testing your own setup is really the only way to get unbiased answers, regarding the affect on your beers. And then, of course, it could all be different for a different style of beer (say, stout vs IPA).

It sounds like you're getting a grasp on the important things. Starters & temp control are key. Don't let the water chemistry trip you up, it's not as important to making a great beer as it sounds. IMO, you getting yours tested & figuring out that it's very hard is a giant step - one most don't take in the first place.

Your water is somewhat like Munich's. Lots of carbonate hardness but not much else. You are fortunate to have water with such low sulfate but you need to get that alkalinity down by a factor of 5 or so. You couldadd 1 tsp of calcium chloride for every 5 gallons and then heat the water to near boiling with aeration. This would drop much of the bicarbonate but you'd have to decant, fiddle with aeration etc. Another approach is 4:1 dilution. This will get the bicarb down to a respectable level but leave you a little low on calcium. So add a tsp of CaCl2 to get that back up. RO water with a tsp of CaCl2 is generally a good water for brewing most beers. If you want more hops assertiveness try adding a bit of gypsum in a subsequent run at the same beer.

Forget 5.2. It basically doesn't work, at least not in lab tests nor for anyone that I've ever heard of in the mash tun either.

Don't rely on pH test strips. They are notoriously inaccurate (read about 0.3 pH low). With decent pH meters available for under $100 there is no reason to rely on the strips any more.

Don't pay any attention to the "suitable for beers in this SRM range" calculations in the popular spreadsheets. A tsp. of CaCl2.2H20 in 5 gals DI water is fine for beers with SRMs from 2 to 200 if you pay attention to mash pH.

It's probably too late now, but I'm not much of a fan of adding MgSo4 to water for brewing. First, most people are NOT that low in Mg and secondly it has an unpleasant side effect in large doses (diarrhea).

Adding Gypsum is a good idea, but then adding table salt to balance that seems counterintuitive to me. I don't know how high your Mg got, but you could do something similar with CaCl2 and CaS04 (Calcium chloride and gypsum). What were your final numbers? That's the important thing.

I'm sort of the opposite of the previous poster, though. I mean, sure mash pH is very important. But if your water has the right chemistry, your mash pH should be right in there for the "color" of the beer. Residual alkalinity has a huge impact on the flavor of the beer.

YooperBrew said:

I'm sort of the opposite of the previous poster, though. I mean, sure mash pH is very important. But if your water has the right chemistry, your mash pH should be right in there for the "color" of the beer. Residual alkalinity has a huge impact on the flavor of the beer.

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Whenever I see a statement like that I beg the poster to actually run some numbers. The following is copied from another post on the EZ spreadsheet:

For example, if I tell the EZ spreadsheet that I want to brew a 40 SRM Stout (e.g. Guiness) from DI water it tells me I must add 1.955 grams (yes, grams) of calcium carbonate for each liter of water! That should immediately strike anyone as insane. It goes on to tell me that this will produce an alkalinity of 952, an RA of 402 and be suitable for beers 38 - 43 SRM. But 1955 mg/L CaCO3 increases alkalinity by 1955 ppm as CaCO3 - there's a reason why alkalinity is specified "as CaCO3". IOW EZ accounts for about half the buffering capacity of CaCO3 and thus directs the user to add twice as much as it would take to get to the "required" RA. If a brewer were to follow this advice he would presumably realize that this much chalk (37 grams for 5 gallons) is not going to dissolve and add it to the mash or suspend it in the water and mash with the suspension. The pH of such a mash would be way high. The theory behind these spreadsheets would require the roast barley to contain 714 mEq of acid which would dissolve and neutralizes the CaCO3 and lower the pH to 5.2. Believe me, the amount of acid in a pound of roast barley is nowhere close to 714 mEq. To get to pH 5.2 the brewer would have to add about (the roast barley will supply a little) 57.8 mL of 23 Be' (hardware store strength) hydrochloric acid!. Fix the thing to correctly calculate the alkalinity correctly and the required acid goes down to 356 mEq. Still completely absurd.

If you think that 40 SRM stout should be brewed with water with an RA of 402 Ninkasi help you! The color SRM thing is a cruel hoax perpetrated upon the members of the home brew community themselves because even the guy that came up with it disavows it. He just doesn't take it out of his spreadsheet as he should.

pH is a much more important parameter than RA. One can brew good beer with water with almost any RA if he controls the mash pH. Usually, this requires the addition of acid but so many homebrewers are gulled into thinking they should be adding chalk. I promise you if you forget this notion you will see an immediate improvement in your beers. Note: You won't hurt yourself too badly if you stick to light beers. It where the SRM gets over 10 or so that these spreadsheets will really hurt you.

ajdelange said:

Whenever I see a statement like that I beg the poster to actually run some numbers. The following is copied from another post on the EZ spreadsheet:

For example, if I tell the EZ spreadsheet that I want to brew a 40 SRM Stout (e.g. Guiness) from DI water it tells me I must add 1.955 grams (yes, grams) of calcium carbonate for each liter of water! That should immediately strike anyone as insane. It goes on to tell me that this will produce an alkalinity of 952, an RA of 402 and be suitable for beers 38 - 43 SRM. But 1955 mg/L CaCO3 increases alkalinity by 1955 ppm as CaCO3 - there's a reason why alkalinity is specified "as CaCO3". IOW EZ accounts for about half the buffering capacity of CaCO3 and thus directs the user to add twice as much as it would take to get to the "required" RA. If a brewer were to follow this advice he would presumably realize that this much chalk (37 grams for 5 gallons) is not going to dissolve and add it to the mash or suspend it in the water and mash with the suspension. The pH of such a mash would be way high. The theory behind these spreadsheets would require the roast barley to contain 714 mEq of acid which would dissolve and neutralizes the CaCO3 and lower the pH to 5.2. Believe me, the amount of acid in a pound of roast barley is nowhere close to 714 mEq. To get to pH 5.2 the brewer would have to add about (the roast barley will supply a little) 57.8 mL of 23 Be' (hardware store strength) hydrochloric acid!. Fix the thing to correctly calculate the alkalinity correctly and the required acid goes down to 356 mEq. Still completely absurd.

If you think that 40 SRM stout should be brewed with water with an RA of 402 Ninkasi help you! The color SRM thing is a cruel hoax perpetrated upon the members of the home brew community themselves because even the guy that came up with it disavows it. He just doesn't take it out of his spreadsheet as he should.

pH is a much more important parameter than RA. One can brew good beer with water with almost any RA if he controls the mash pH. Usually, this requires the addition of acid but so many homebrewers are gulled into thinking they should be adding chalk. I promise you if you forget this notion you will see an immediate improvement in your beers. Note: You won't hurt yourself too badly if you stick to light beers. It where the SRM gets over 10 or so that these spreadsheets will really hurt you.

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True- I guess I wasn't clear. Common sense and a working knowledge of brewing would have to come into play.

I never have added chalk, and never will. Of course, my tap water is naturally high carbonate. I use RO water and a mix of tap water to get my RA into range, and just adjust slightly with salts like gypsum. But I think that simply focusing on mash pH is being short-sighted. You can get your mash pH in range (5.2 buffer?) without "fixing" any water issues and be lulled into a false sense of security.

YooperBrew said:

IWhat were your final numbers? That's the important thing.

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If you're talking about the beer itself, I have no numbers yet because I am brewing this coming Saturday. If you'r asking about my numbers after the mineral adjustments, here is what I wrote above.

'calculated on a 2/3 distilled water dilution in my mash. I am mashing in with 4.5 gallons so that ratio worked well (3 gallons of distilled to 1.5 gallons of my house water. I will be sparging with 6 gallons (all my house water).

Based on the spreadsheet, I assumed 3g of epsom salt in the mash water and 2g in the boil kettle (since my water is low in sulfate anyway).

To bring my calcium back into acceptable range, I added 2g of Gypsum to the mash.

I then assumed 5g of NaCl to the kettle to bring my chloride to sulfate ratio back into balance.

This gave me a mash+sparge water profile of (everything in Palmer's recommended range:

Ca 51
Mg 30
Na 66
Cl 83
Sulfate 79

Residual Alkalinity 35 (recommended for 8-13 SRM. My recipe rates at 4 SRM. Close enough)

Chloride to Sulfate ratio 1.05 (shows as "balanced") on the spreadsheet."

I started this whole discussion based on my desire to get my sulfates up. My S04 number for my untreated water is 3. That's why I was going for the Epsom Salts addition

I certainly don't think people should try to use mash pH as the sole indicator of how to treat brewing water any more than I think they should use SRM or RA. Some knowledge of water and mash chemistry would be a much better basis for making decisions but lots of new guys don't have that and many never will. So they, lulled into thinking it's as simple as a one page spreadsheet blindly rely ones which tells them to add 1.8 grams of chalk to each liter of water for a mod color stout. Doing that is obviously going to produce a bad, bad beer.

So lets suppose someone (me) is successful in getting people to monitor mash pH and ignore RA completely. A brewer with high carbonate water will have to add quite a bit of acid to get to pH 5.3 or so. The effect of this is to replace each equivalent of carbonate with an equivalent of chloride or sulfate (depending on whether he uses hydrochloric or sulfuric acid to acidify) but the bicarb (which doesn't taste very good IMO) is, for the most part gone (left the mash as CO2) and his mash pH is OK so the enzymes can do their jobs. The beer he makes would be better if he removed the bicarb (by lime treatment or boiling) before he mashed but he'll still get a pretty good beer. If OTOH, his water is very soft he'll use little acid to get the mash pH in the right range and he should make a fine beer. Again it might better if he supplemented with some calcium chloride but the beer should be good without it. So it looks to me as if ignoring RA and emphasizing mash pH will get you better beer than ignoring mash pH and emphasizing RA.

The problem is that most people don't want to spring for a meter and thus wind up using strips that apparently consistently read 0.3 or so low. Even a meter isn't a panacea. Many a brewer (including me) has been led down the garden path by one of those until he learned its quirks.

So now I am thoroughly confused. I made my mash/sparge adjustments based on getting into Palmer's recommended levels. I will admit that the NaCl adjustment had to do more with changing the sulfate/chloride ratio to land in the "balanced" range since I am going with a moderate profile wheat/rye beer.

I have always heard that water hardness accentuates bitterness so I was mainly trying to add the one thing my water seems to be deficient in (SO4) and then balance out any changes brought about by adding the MgSO4.

Now I don't know what to think. Am I risking ruining this beer or not? Is not knowing my mash pH at all better than being 0.3 off since I don't have the cash to put toward a pH meter at the moment?

I always figured that if I work to modify anything at all, it will be pH. I have heard tons of arguments for measuring and adjusting mash pH. I honestly read nor knew anything about RA until I started trying to learn more about my water chemistry

I'm sorry you are confused but don't feel that you are alone. Water chemistry can be very daunting. The attempts to simplify it are certainly well intentioned but you have to be very careful in doing that. I too tried to develop a simple spreadsheet for students in the brewing water seminars I do for my club. It is now a wonderful thing (to me) but covers two studio size monitors and I wouldn't dream of offering it to beginning brewers.

After I don't know how many years of trying to figure out how to put water chemistry simply I have sort of given up and advise the ultra KISS principal except for advanced brewers. DI/RO water plus a bit of calcium chloride - it's hard to screw up with that recipe. Those that really want to tailor their water to their beer need to do the work it takes to understand the chemistry. That takes more effort than most are willing to put in (bit I have to say I find it a fascinating subject).

In general, tap water is, treated for chlorine/chloramine, is suitable for most beers but you have very high alkalinity. You need to get that down and the dilution required is such that you might as well go all RO or all DI and just add the CaCl2. You do not really need to increase you sulfate. Chloride sulfate ratio represents another attempt to make "one size fit all". You need to understand what sulfate does and what chloride does and only experience will teach you that. Don't fiddle with the sulfate (or magnesium) and, if you are disappointed in the hops qualities of your beer do it again but add some sulfate this time.

ajdelange:

While I appreciate your attempts to "let me down easy", I have been learning my entire life and certainly don't plan to stop now.

I looked for a way to bump up sulfate without wildly throwing off other minerals because, honestly, Palmer's book has yet to steer me wrong. The sulfate concentration in the water I brew with was the only number that was significantly out of the ranges suggested by Palmer. In his brief explanation, he indicates that Sulfate "accentuates hop bitterness, making the bitterness seem drier, more crisp". The beer I am brewing is lowly hopped and designed to be crisp and refreshing. Certainly increasing sulfate to the minimum recommendation from Palmer seemed like a reasonable course of action.

It sounds like you've studied quite a bit on the subject. If there is a reason not to adjust individual minerals, even at my level of understanding of the water chemistry, then please help me understand it. Simply saying that I "need to do the work" it takes to understand the chemistry is not enough. I'm willing to do the work. I'm just asking to be pointed in the right direction, not told that the science is beyond my understanding.

Show me the information, the resources I need to look at to understand what I'm doing. I'll take the homework from there. I'll decide if I am in over my head.

At a rudimentary level, I have an understanding (again, from Palmer) that Sulfate accentuates hop bitterness, Chloride focuses on fullness, body, "maltiness" if you will. I am brewing a refreshing, warm weather beer. It's a rye beer made with equal parts rye and wheat. The hops are being kept low so that it appeals to my wife. I want something that is crisp, refreshing and easy to drink across a wide range of tastes. But I don't want the rye and wheat to get lost in the crisp dryness.

I gravitated toward the easybrewing calculator spreadsheet because it at least seemed to offer what I was looking for. Namely, a way to strike even balance between malt and hops, while addressing what a trusted brewing text appeared to indicate was a shortcoming in my water supply.

If I am headed the wrong way, please help show me the right path.

winvarin said:

ajdelange:

While I appreciate your attempts to "let me down easy", I have been learning my entire life and certainly don't plan to stop now.

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Delighted to hear that!

winvarin said:

I looked for a way to bump up sulfate without wildly throwing off other minerals because, honestly, Palmer's book has yet to steer me wrong. The sulfate concentration in the water I brew with was the only number that was significantly out of the ranges suggested by Palmer. In his brief explanation, he indicates that Sulfate "accentuates hop bitterness, making the bitterness seem drier, more crisp". The beer I am brewing is lowly hopped and designed to be crisp and refreshing. Certainly increasing sulfate to the minimum recommendation from Palmer seemed like a reasonable course of action.

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The problem with the spreadsheets and maybe even the book (I don't remember) is that it implies that sulfate and chloride must be set to some ratio whereas the probable source for all this (2d edition of Brewing Handbook) actually only says that many authors "refer to the importance of the balance" and then goes on to cite one author who demonstrated that beers with higher chloride to sulfate ratios got higher scores from tasting panels. It concludes that in many cases it is the relative ratio of the two that has the major flavor impact. Many cases is certainly not all cases and in German brewing texts you will find advice to avoid sulfate where possible. My thinking is that sulfate is disastrous with noble hops but not so bad with British. Nonetheless when I brewed 2 identical ales with EKG, one using sulfate rich water (Burton simulation) and the other with much lower sulfate water tasters thought the Burton water beer "more authentic" but the low sulfate one a better beer. A commercial brewer asked me how I got that soft quality in my ale. I'd seen the terra alba sacks lying around in his shop and told him all he had to do was skip the gypsum additions.

But the effects of sulfate are organoleptic - they won't change mash pH and in so doing make it tough for your enzymes so what I am suggesting is that you brew the beer without sulfate augmentation first, see how you like it and then brew it again with sulfate augmentation to see if you like it better. IOW walk before you run. Start with super KISS and work from there. That's really how you will learn. There's enough stuff for beginning brewers to worry about without worrying about water chemistry. With an RO machine in every health food store in the country "blank" water is now readily available so that guys with problem water (your high alkalinity) are no longer stuck brewing with it.

winvarin said:

It sounds like you've studied quite a bit on the subject. If there is a reason not to adjust individual minerals, even at my level of understanding of the water chemistry, then please help me understand it. Simply saying that I "need to do the work" it takes to understand the chemistry is not enough. I'm willing to do the work. I'm just asking to be pointed in the right direction, not told that the science is beyond my understanding.

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I don't think I said the science is beyond your understanding (or at least I didn't mean to). What I did say is that understanding it involves more work than many are willing to do. It's easy for me to say after years of fiddling with this that the only tricky bit is understanding Henderson Hasselbalch equation as applied to the carbonic acid system but I remember how I struggled with that at first. And remember that experience gained by brewing experimentation is equally or more important than theoretical knowledge.

The reason I don't think you should be fiddling with ion content is because the guidance you are getting from the EZ or Palmer spreadsheets can lead you astray. You do not need a particular level of RA to brew a beer of a particular color and you do not need a particular ratio of sulfate to chloride. As noted above continental lagers tend to have low sulfate whatever their hopping levels. It is the low sulfate that allows Pilsner Urquel, for example, to be hopped at the high rate it is.

winvarin said:

Show me the information, the resources I need to look at to understand what I'm doing. I'll take the homework from there. I'll decide if I am in over my head.

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There's another thread here in which someone asked me to recommend some books. You might want to look at that. And there are several articles, papers and presentations on my website (www.wetnewf.org) which go into the water chemistry but the problem is that there is no concise, accurate, complete treatment of this in any text I know of. The brewing texts don't have it because you'd need a whole volume just on water. So I wrote one. It runs to over 400 pages (and no, I never published it and doubtless never will). So your task is made harder by the relative lack of information.

winvarin said:

At a rudimentary level, I have an understanding (again, from Palmer) that Sulfate accentuates hop bitterness, Chloride focuses on fullness, body, "maltiness" if you will.

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The descriptions of what sulfate does in pretty spot on. Chloride is generally described as increasing the roundness, fullness, body and sometimes sweetness of the beer. Throwing maltiness in there may be a bit of a stretch, IMO.

winvarin said:

I am brewing a refreshing, warm weather beer. It's a rye beer made with equal parts rye and wheat. The hops are being kept low so that it appeals to my wife. I want something that is crisp, refreshing and easy to drink across a wide range of tastes. But I don't want the rye and wheat to get lost in the crisp dryness.

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In that case you would definitely want low sulfate levels.

winvarin said:

I gravitated toward the easybrewing calculator spreadsheet because it at least seemed to offer what I was looking for. Namely, a way to strike even balance between malt and hops, while addressing what a trusted brewing text appeared to indicate was a shortcoming in my water supply.

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The EZ calculator is based on the two false premises I mentioned above. Plus I found that it mishandles carbonate additions by a factor of 2.

winvarin said:

If I am headed the wrong way, please help show me the right path.

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This is only my opinion, of course, but I think it is wrong to jump into tailoring water until you have most everything else under your belt or, put another way, start simple and work up. I hope that at this point you are a little less confused. Please do not hesitate to ask further questions.

I, personally, don't feel mash pH is as important as getting ions for flavor in line. I mean, it IS important, but to me, once i cut my hard water with DI water, pH is more hands-off than ion content. That's what I concentrate on - someone could tell you different, and no one will be "wrong". In my opinion, as along as your pH allows for a good sacc. conversion, your pH is "good enough". A decent spot check of this is calc'ing the mash conversion efficiency.

There is no reason you can't get the stylistic ions in line and control pH and that's what I always try to do. It can happen that fiddling with water, or not, will cause the pH to fall into the right range and you get very good beer but in general you can't get the pH in the right range by controlling minerals alone. That's what sauermalz, sauergut, CRS etc. are for.

pH is often referred to as the "master variable". It controls many, many things in brewing. Get it right in the mash and it will be right throughout the rest of the process. Discovering this was a real epiphany for me. For years I monitored and recorded pH. If it was too high (it was never too low) I might add some calcium chloride (which never did much) but all I did was write down the numbers. When I finally decided to set it all my beers improved, dramatically IMO.

It's interesting that of the two professional brewers I know around here one controls pH and the other doesn't. They both make good beer but I'm so convinced the guy that just rolls with what comes out of the mains would have the same experience I did that I gave him a pH meter. Now all I have to do is get him to use it. He's got other things on his mind right now (just opened).

ajdelange said:

There's enough stuff for beginning brewers to worry about without worrying about water chemistry. With an RO machine in every health food store in the country "blank" water is now readily available so that guys with problem water (your high alkalinity) are no longer stuck brewing with it.

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I am not new to brewing, just new to the water chemistry portion of the process. That is why I have been looking for guidance here.

I bought approximately half the volume of water I would need to use (plus a bit more just in case) in distilled water. This is a new recipe, so I certainly do not have anything to contrast the finished product to. That being said, I have always planned on doing a 2/3 cut of my mash water with the distilled (two parts distilled to 1 part my water) then leaving the sparge water at 100% my tap water.

I have enough distilled on hand that I could easily cut both mash and sparge water 50/50 with it. Would you recommend mixing 50/50 with both mash and sparge due to the alkalinity and hardness of my water? Or would you recommend only diluting my mash water. It's my understanding that alkalinity is primarily a problem in the mash, not so much in the boil.

I would still look to make a small addition of (maybe gypsum since it's what I have on hand) to bring the calcium back up if I dilute both mash and sparge. But I would be willing to skip the sulfate and other additions (salt) I had planned until I see how this beer turns out.

I'd just do the 2:1 for the mash because, as you note, it is in the mash that the alkalinity will do the most damage. 2:1 is going to leave you with pretty high alkalinity (about 1/3 of what you started with) and that's enough to push your pH up approximately 0.11 units. It would take about 7.5 grams of gypsum to neutralize that to the point where you would have the same pH as if you mashed with distilled water. This is going to give you about 224 mg/L sulfate which is a whole bunch but I'm sure the beer would be drinkable.

Alternatives would be to boil the water the night before you brew. I'm estimating that you could drop out maybe half the alkalinity. Dilute that with 2 parts DI and it would take about half as much gypsum to get to the distilled water mash pH at a sulfate level of about 115 - 120.

Better still would be to dilute 3:1 or 4:1 with DI water (without decarbonation) if you can get it before brew day. At 4:1 your calcium would be quite low and your RA marginal at 39 but you could probably forgo the gypsum addition and get by.

So 2:1 with 22 g of gypsum? That would harden the water considerably again, wouldn't it? Or am I reading your first paragraph wrong and you're saying 2:1 distilled with no mineral additions OR adding 22g of calcium?

What I meant was that a 2:1 dilution would need 22.7 grams of gypsum to supply enough calcium to offset the pH raising effect of the alkalinity. I just wouldn't feel comfortable putting in that much gypsum but doing so would give you water less gypseous than Burton's. Assuming no calcium chloride is available I'd probably add about a tablespoon of gypsum to 5 gallons of the 2:1 diluted water and go with that.

OK. So the alkalinity will be offset by the calcium. I can get calcium chloride. My LHBS sells in. In fact, I need to stop by there at lunch tomorrow for something else anyway. I am looking at 4.5 gallons of mash water. Would you recommend calcium chloride or gypsum? Since sulfate is something you're steering me away from in this batch, I would think calcium chloride. But how much?

Calcium combats the alkalinity, but does it boost hardness to levels unacceptable for a beer like this (rye/wheat, lowly hopped)?

I know you hate the commonly available spreadsheet, but right now it's the best thing I have to work with. I am using it primarily during this discussion to watch the levels of different ions go up and down as I read your suggestions. And I know you also say that a particular RA or sulfate to chloride ratio is not important.

That being said:

1. What sort of impact can I expect to get on my mash pH if I do the 2:1 distilled mix with gypsum?
2. With calcium chloride?
3. My current chloride level is 10 parts per million. With the 2:1 mix in the mash water it will drop to 3 ppm. If I add CaCl, what will the additional chloride levels do to my beer? Fullness yes. But would I be adding it at levels that would adversely affect the beer? Per the info on my LHBS website, 1 gram of CaCl per gallon of water adds 127.5 ppm of cloride. If I did 4.5 grams for my 4.5 gallons of mash water, assuming the 3 ppm that I already had in the water, that would have me at 130.5 ppm. That appears to still be within acceptable range. Gypsum certainly seems to add calcium at a greater rate, but I see where the sulfate (147.5 ppm) is pretty high too.
4. Would a mix of Cacl and CaS04 be better?
5. Finally, and I know you'll probably let me have it for this one, but what if my mash pH is still high after the suggested mineral additions? I have a canister of 5.2. Would adding right at or something less than the recommended amount be worth pursuing?
6. One last question, after reading question 3 again. Am I making my calculations right? If the information on a mineral says it adds 127.5 ppm if you add one gram to one gallon of water, then the number should scale, right? If I add 4.5 grams to 4.5 gallons, I am still adding at the same rate and my ppm value should not change. Is that correct?

Even better. I am looking at my LHBS site again. They have CaCl listed in two places. One says it adds 72 ppm calcium, 127.5 ppm chloride at 1 gram per gallon. The other listing says 1 gram per gallon adds 95 ppm calcium, 169 ppm chloride.

Nothing like having a lot of contradictory data to choose from.

winvarin said:

Nothing like having a lot of contradictory data to choose from.

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Welcome to homebrewing & the interwebs.

RDWHAHB...haha jk...

not trying to thread jack but while your on the subject

Aj delange

whats the lowest alkalinity you would go and why.

I read that you have a different out look on the Sulfate to Chloride ratio subject. Can you talk about that a bit more? Im curious about this because since i read about how you can get the ****s from having 300ppm sulfate beer water I wanted to make water profile with like 100ppm sulfate and 20ppm chloride.(cuz im afraid if i decide to binge drink i dont want to get sick) Anyways What effects would the low level of chloride have on my beer?

btw good thread win and aj

winvarin said:

OK. So the alkalinity will be offset by the calcium. I can get calcium chloride. My LHBS sells in. In fact, I need to stop by there at lunch tomorrow for something else anyway. I am looking at 4.5 gallons of mash water. Would you recommend calcium chloride or gypsum? Since sulfate is something you're steering me away from in this batch, I would think calcium chloride. But how much?

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Given the philosophy we've discussed I'd say definitely start with the Calcium Chloride. It would take 6.3 grams of calcium chloride dihydrate to "neutralize" the alkalinity in 5 gallons (post dilution) of your water. This would mean a mash pH similar to that which you would get with distilled water which would probably be around 5.75 - 5.8.

winvarin said:

Calcium combats the alkalinity, but does it boost hardness to levels unacceptable for a beer like this (rye/wheat, lowly hopped)?

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Hardness, after addition of 6.3 grams would be 309 ppm as CaCO3 which is certainly hard. I can't comment on whether that would be a problem with this particular beer because I've never brewed anything like it. It would not be suitable (in this regard) for a Bohemian Pils or a Helles but would be fine for an Export. This level of calcium might make the beer but, OTOH, you might like (and it really ultimately comes down to what you like) it better brewed with softer water.

winvarin said:

I know you hate the commonly available spreadsheet, but right now it's the best thing I have to work with. I am using it primarily during this discussion to watch the levels of different ions go up and down as I read your suggestions. And I know you also say that a particular RA or sulfate to chloride ratio is not important.

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I don't hate the spreadheets. What I hate is that people blindly follow them because they don't know what the limitations are. If I fault the authors it's for not putting the caveats out there in big red letters. John Palmer, who came up with the SRM/RA correlation, says its "at best a handwave" but I don't think that warning appears on the spreadsheet itself anywhere. As long as you ignore SRM/RA, take chloride/sulfate balance "with a grain of salt", don't use them when your water's pH is greater than about 9 and don't make carbonate additions the spreadsheets are fine. They are certainly fine for calculating the amount of calcium ion 6 grams of calcium chloride adds to 5 gallons of water.

winvarin said:

That being said:

1. What sort of impact can I expect to get on my mash pH if I do the 2:1 distilled mix with gypsum?

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Yesterday I posted that it would take 23 grams of gypsum to neutralize the alkalinity. Unfortunately that was for 15 gallons - a fat finger on my part. For 5 gallons diluted it would take more like 7.6. This would give you a mash pH similar to what you would get if you mashed with distilled water - probably around 5.75. You would have calcium at 112 mg/L and sulfate at 224. That might or might not be OK with your particular hopping schedule. Again it depends on your taste but given that you don't want the hops to be dominant that's probably too much.

winvarin said:

2. With calcium chloride?

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It would take about 6.5 grams of calcium chloride (dihydrate) to put in the same amount of calcium as in the gypsum case and thus get the pH to about the DI water pH level. This would result in chloride at 168 mg/L.

winvarin said:

3. My current chloride level is 10 parts per million. With the 2:1 mix in the mash water it will drop to 3 ppm. If I add CaCl, what will the additional chloride levels do to my beer? Fullness yes. But would I be adding it at levels that would adversely affect the beer?

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Chloride seems to be OK up to levels of 400 mg/L at which pale beers are reported to taste "pasty". At 500 mg/L fermentation is reportedly incomplete and beers have a "flat" taste. At 600 - 700 fermentation apparently stops. My reason for mentioning this is that many users of the spreadsheets will just up the calcium chloride until the predicted pH falls in the range they want (or rather the RA the spreadsheet tells them they "need"). If you add 12.6 grams to 5 gal diluted water the predicted mash pH will be 0.1 less than a DI mash, around 5.65, which is better than 5.75 but still not great. Chloride would be 325 mg/L at this level which would make me nervous but beers are doubtless brewed at such levels.

winvarin said:

Per the info on my LHBS website, 1 gram of CaCl per gallon of water adds 127.5 ppm of cloride.

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That's correct.

winvarin said:

If I did 4.5 grams for my 4.5 gallons of mash water, assuming the 3 ppm that I already had in the water, that would have me at 130.5 ppm. That appears to still be within acceptable range. Gypsum certainly seems to add calcium at a greater rate, but I see where the sulfate (147.5 ppm) is pretty high too.

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Those calculations are correct demonstrating that the EZ spreadsheet is fine where carbonate is not involved.

winvarin said:

4. Would a mix of Cacl and CaS04 be better?

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That's an approach. 4.5 grams of each would leave you with chloride at about 131 and sulfate about 148 with a predicted mash pH 0.05 less than with distilled water.

winvarin said:

5. Finally, and I know you'll probably let me have it for this one, but what if my mash pH is still high after the suggested mineral additions?

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That's a very good question (in fact they all are). You'll still get beer - perhaps even good beer but not, IMO, beer as good as it could be. I seems to be a closely guarded secret in home brewing but in general you cannot get mash pH into the desired region with salt additions alone. Dark malts or acids are nearly always required. Your problem is easily solved by adding some hydrochloric acid to the water/mash. This will drive out all that troublesome alkalinity and replace it with chloride ion to the extent of about 57 mg/L. But I do not recommend this except for people experienced in handling strong acids and to do it right you really need to be checking pH in the mash tun. It's interesting to note that in the UK there is a product called CRS which is a blend of sulfuric and hydrochloric acid available to home brewers for just this purpose but not in the US.

What I do recommend to mid level brewers is acidulated malt (sauermalz). It's malt that has been acidified with lactic acid. What's great about it is that there is a reasonable rule of thumb: 1% (of the grain bill) sauermalz for each 0.1 pH unit drop desired. In your case I'd use 2-3% which would get your pH down into the 5.4 - 5.5 range - which is getting close to where you'd like it to be. This assumes that you add about 2 grams of calcium chloride to the diluted water which would set your calcium right at 50 and the chloride at 113. This I would expect to give a very nice beer.

winvarin said:

I have a canister of 5.2. Would adding right at or something less than the recommended amount be worth pursuing?

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Unfortunately even multiples of the recommended dose of 5.2 aren't going to get you to anywhere near proper pH. 5.2 is a phosphate buffer. The alkalinity in your water is a stronger buffer. I really don't understand how they can sell that stuff in good conscience.

winvarin said:

6. One last question, after reading question 3 again. Am I making my calculations right? If the information on a mineral says it adds 127.5 ppm if you add one gram to one gallon of water, then the number should scale, right? If I add 4.5 grams to 4.5 gallons, I am still adding at the same rate and my ppm value should not change. Is that correct?

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Yes, that's true for any of the salts that do not contain carbonate or bicarbonate (with the latter what happens becomes pH dependent and that's why the spreadsheets don't handle it very well).

I hope all this discussion makes it clear that there are multiple approaches and that the problem has two parts.

First: Get the mash pH right
Second: Get the mineral profile to taste.

Obviously they are not independent. Using lots of CaCl2 to control mash pH will result in a beer with high mineral profile (e.g. Export). Using lots of gypsum will get you to something like a Burton style ale.

Let me suggest three approaches to you in order of desirability:

1. All deionized water with 2 grams of calcium chloride and 2% sauermalz.

2. 2:1 dilution with DI water with 2 grams of calcium chloride and 3% sauermalz.

3. 2:1 dilution with DI water with 4.5 grams of calcium chloride

If your LHBS doesn't have acidulated malt then you are stuck with option 3.

winvarin said:

Even better. I am looking at my LHBS site again. They have CaCl listed in two places. One says it adds 72 ppm calcium, 127.5 ppm chloride at 1 gram per gallon. The other listing says 1 gram per gallon adds 95 ppm calcium, 169 ppm chloride.

Nothing like having a lot of contradictory data to choose from.

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It's not quite contradictory but clearly confusing as what they are not telling you is that the first set of numbers are for the dihydrate: CaCl2.2H2O and that the second are for the anhydrous salt: CaCl2. You would be very unlikely to encounter the anhydrous form. It is hard to deal with as it takes up water from the air very quickly becoming a soupy mess.

boss429 said:

whats the lowest alkalinity you would go and why.

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The lowest I would go is 2.5 ppm as CaCO3. That's kind of a wise-ass answer though because 2.5 is the alkalinity of distilled water. What I mean is that the best alkalinity is no alkalinity. All alkalinity can do is raise mash pH and that's seldom a good thing. I have said many times that of all the rules of thumb in brewing the only one that really seems to stand is "alkalinity - bad". The exception would be where lots of dark and roasted malts are being used and you need to raise pH somewhat but for light beers you usually want negative alkalinity, i.e. acid. I'm not a big stout brewer but I do keep an Irish stout on tap and never add alkalinity to the water when I brew it.

boss429 said:

I read that you have a different out look on the Sulfate to Chloride ratio subject. Can you talk about that a bit more? Im curious about this because since i read about how you can get the ****s from having 300ppm sulfate beer water I wanted to make water profile with like 100ppm sulfate and 20ppm chloride.(cuz im afraid if i decide to binge drink i dont want to get sick) Anyways What effects would the low level of chloride have on my beer?

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My thinking was set out in some detail in #18 of this thread. In my experience more sulfate has always meant more harshness and I don't like that. Neither, according to the sources I identified in #18, do taste panels even in the U.K. where high sulfate beers are common (or were - I doubt modern Bass Ale is brewed with as much sulfate as it was in the days when it was brewed in Burton. I have gone to considerable trouble and expense to eliminate sulfate from all my brewing liquors and I like the results. But I'm well aware that there may be people who like what sulfate does to beer and I encourage them to be ruled by their palates.

I think SO4 will have the effect you speak of when coupled with magnesium (effectively dissolved epsom salts). I'm not sure it will do that by itself.

Wow. This beer is taking up a lot of my free time and I haven't even put a single piece of grain in the mill. I think I am going with option 2 from your list above. But I have a couple more questions, one a stupid question. The others, hopefully not so much:

1. When you speak of DI or deionized water, is that the same as "distilled"? I hope so, because I have been using the terms interchangeably in my head through our conversation.

2. We're still talking about mash water only here. Just to confirm, right?

3. Why are you suggesting 100% DI water and only a calcium chloride ion addition for my mash in option 1? I get that difference between options 1 and 2. When you go with the DI water dilution and the same amount of CaCl in option 2, you're adding more acidulated malt because the pH of my tap water is higher than that of DI water. It also has the alkalinity issue so I am assuming that the additional acidulated will also help with that.

But won't using all DI water in my mash starve it of some of the beneficial ions that my water does contain? You lose what calcium I already would add from the one part of my tap water that I'd use in a blend. Plus the amounts of sodium, chloride, etc. that are contained in my tap water; even if they are a bit low. Does the alkalinity brought in by my water pose such a problem that an all DI mash water is preferable?

4. As far as percentages of acidulated, I am using rice hulls to aid with sparging due to the large amount of wheat and rye in this grist. Should I calculate the 1# of rice hulls when figuring out how much acidulated to use? Or should I only look at the actual grains (2-row, wheat, rye) when figuring my percentage?

5. Where will you be for my next beer? I feel like much of our discussion has been centered around this beer, it's low hop schedule and light body. I am targeting a deep red IPA, or a stout for my next beer. Are we going to have to have this discussion all over again?

winvarin said:

Wow. This beer is taking up a lot of my free time and I haven't even put a single piece of grain in the mill. I think I am going with option 2 from your list above. But I have a couple more questions, one a stupid question. The others, hopefully not so much:

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Whenever someone mentions stupid questions I recall the time the company president came down from Boston for the annual pep talk and asked for questions at the end. After an awkward silence he said people are often afraid to ask questions because they think they are stupid questions. He reached into his suit coat pocket and pulled out a crisp new $100 bill which he held aloft and said he'd give to anyone who asked a stupid question. The Muse kissed me on the spot (she usually waits about half an hour) and I shouted out "Is that real?". His immediate response: "That's a good question!"

winvarin said:

1. When you speak of DI or deionized water, is that the same as "distilled"? I hope so, because I have been using the terms interchangeably in my head through our conversation.

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Not strictly speaking, but in general RO water is low enough in ions that it can be considered ion free for the purpose of these calculations. My RO unit produces water with TDS of from 3-5 ppm. The water is quite carbonate hard where you live so RO might actually contain quite a bit more but still that shouldn't throw the calculations off much. You won't be measuring out salts with an analytical balance after drying in an oven and cooling in a dessicator nor will you be measuring fluid volumes at precisely 20 °C with Class A glassware so a few percent here and there don't really matter.

winvarin said:

2. We're still talking about mash water only here. Just to confirm, right?

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In my previous post I was talking about 4.5 gal of water which is, I believe, what you intend to mash with. I always treat the whole volume of water (mash, sparge, makeup....) the same. The mash tun is the most important but using alkaline water in the sparge sucks up acid faster than decarbonated water so that the pH at which tannin extraction starts is reached faster. High alkalinity makeup water absorbs acid in the kettle resulting in higher cast out pH

winvarin said:

3. Why are you suggesting 100% DI water and only a calcium chloride ion addition for my mash in option 1? I get that difference between options 1 and 2. When you go with the DI water dilution and the same amount of CaCl in option 2, you're adding more acidulated malt because the pH of my tap water is higher than that of DI water. It also has the alkalinity issue so I am assuming that the additional acidulated will also help with that.

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Yes, I think you've got it. Pure DI water = no alkalinity (other than the intrinsic 2.5 ppm as CaCO3 of distilled water) so none of the acid in the Sauermalz is required for combatting water alkalinity and you should be able to get by with less. With the blend you will need some extra sauermalz to combat the appreciable alkalinity remaining in even the diluted water.

winvarin said:

But won't using all DI water in my mash starve it of some of the beneficial ions that my water does contain? You lose what calcium I already would add from the one part of my tap water that I'd use in a blend. Plus the amounts of sodium, chloride, etc. that are contained in my tap water; even if they are a bit low. Does the alkalinity brought in by my water pose such a problem that an all DI mash water is preferable?

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In a nutshell, yes. To get that under control you'd need so much RO/DI water that you might as well go the whole 9 yards with it. Some, including me, keep 10% or so tap water in the blend for the reasons you have mentioned. But the CaCl2 supplement will supply plenty of calcium and chloride. Malt is quite rich in minerals - rich enough that you don't have to worry about supplementing them if you use even distilled water.

winvarin said:

4. As far as percentages of acidulated, I am using rice hulls to aid with sparging due to the large amount of wheat and rye in this grist. Should I calculate the 1# of rice hulls when figuring out how much acidulated to use? Or should I only look at the actual grains (2-row, wheat, rye) when figuring my percentage?

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Only the actual grains. The rice hulls are pretty much not there chemically speaking. All they do is take up space and that's what we want them for.

winvarin said:

5. Where will you be for my next beer?

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Right here, gods willin' and the creek don't rise.

winvarin said:

I feel like much of our discussion has been centered around this beer, it's low hop schedule and light body. I am targeting a deep red IPA, or a stout for my next beer. Are we going to have to have this discussion all over again?

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The principles are the same but of course there are variations which depend on style. In a IPA you will, for authenticity, probably want sulfate. But you should probably try it without as well. Test panels in the UK apparently give higher scores to, presumably, British beers brewed with lower sulfate. With the stout the roast barley will provide much, if not all, the needed acid so that sauermalz won't be required.

ajdelange said:

Not strictly speaking, but in general RO water is low enough in ions that it can be considered ion free for the purpose of these calculations.

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I am using store bought distilled water for my blend.

ajdelange said:

In my previous post I was talking about 4.5 gal of water which is, I believe, what you intend to mash with. I always treat the whole volume of water (mash, sparge, makeup....) the same. The mash tun is the most important but using alkaline water in the sparge sucks up acid faster than decarbonated water so that the pH at which tannin extraction starts is reached faster. High alkalinity makeup water absorbs acid in the kettle resulting in higher cast out pH

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See above. I have enough distilled on hand to do 2:1 in my mash and 1:1 in my sparge. My plan is to have 6 gallons of sparge water on hand. I picked up the CaCl at lunchtime. Since my ratio would be different on the sparge and the total volume would be higher, how much CaCl would you recommend?

My wild guess would be 2.9 to 3 grams. I got this by taking your original suggestion for 2 grams to 4.5 gallons and adjusting it upwards by 25% (figuring that would give me the same ratio of calcium and chloride at 6 gallons). That gave me 2.5 grams. I then increased that by 16%, the approximate difference between a 1:1 dilution (50%) and a 2:1 (66.6%) dilution. If my math has gone astray, I think it is probably here.

If I am completely off base (or even if I am not) how are you calculating the amount needed?

Worst case, I can always stop by the store and pick up another gallon of distilled water and dilute my sparge water at 2:1 as well. That should make the 2.5 g more accurate (although a bit problematic as my scale only measures in full gram increments)

ajdelange said:

Yes, I think you've got it. Pure DI water = no alkalinity (other than the intrinsic 2.5 ppm as CaCO3 of distilled water) so none of the acid in the Sauermalz is required for combatting water alkalinity and you should be able to get by with less. With the blend you will need some extra sauermalz to combat the appreciable alkalinity remaining in even the diluted water.

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I picked up 5.75 ounces of saurmalz at lunch as well. That's approximately 3% of my grist weight (12.25 lb grains, 1 lb rice hulls. I bought the sauermalz based on 3% of 12.25). I tasted a bit of it. It was a lot more acidic than even I was prepared for. Are you sure 3% is appropriate? I don't want to have that strong a "tang" come through in the beer.

ajdelange said:

The principles are the same but of course there are variations which depend on style. In a IPA you will, for authenticity, probably want sulfate. But you should probably try it without as well. Test panels in the UK apparently give higher scores to, presumably, British beers brewed with lower sulfate. With the stout the roast barley will provide much, if not all, the needed acid so that sauermalz won't be required.

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This is an add on to my question about how you are getting the calculations that you are providing me. Do you have your own spreadsheet that you are working from? I believe you mentioned in an earlier post that you provide instruction to your local club and had prepared some materials for that. Would you be willing to share, and offline of course, help me start learning to use some of the tools you use in order to at least get in the ballpark on my own? It would certainly shorten the thread the next time out.

With respect to the sparge water: all you are trying to do is remove alkalinity so only the dilution is really needed so I'd vote for getting the extra DI water. As calcium is good for many things you might want to add 2 or 3 grams to the 6 gallons. It really doesn't matter that much which at this point. Remember that calcium is not offsetting alkalinity here. It's just a matter of having some calcium in the kettle for bright runoff, etc.

On the sauermalz: you can overdo it but you shouldn't at 3%. If you are nervous about that start at 2%. It definitely does have a flavor influence on beer but not by increasing sourness unless appreciably more than 3% is used. Instead it adds subtle malt complexity which really improves lagers where it tends to be used most (commercially).

I do have a spreadsheet that I use for all my calculations. I call it the NUBWS - Nearly Universal Brewing Water Spreadsheet because it does a lot of stuff but not everything. It does not calculate an SRM range from RA for example. You can get it at www.wetnewf.org which also has articles on brewing water chemistry, slides from water workshops and the audio from the last one I did.

Brace yourself for a bit of a shock when you see the spreadsheet. The hard part of brewing water chemistry is the acid/base chemistry of the bicarbonate system and most of the complexity of the spreadsheet devolves from that. There is a Users Manual for it which you will really need to get an idea as how to use it. That's at the site too. The current edition of the User's Manual probably doesn't match the current edition of the spreadsheet so if something isn't in exactly the cell the manual says it should be just look at nearby cells and you should find it.

Brew day is here. Did a 2:1 mix in my sparge water. I wound up using 4 oz. of acid malt (about 2.5% mol. And 2 g of CaCl. My pH test strip appears to register darker than what it says is 4.6 and lighter than what it says is 5.0. If they read about 0.3 low like you say. that puts me probably around 5.1 mash pH. So pretty close for what we were estimating.

As a side note, I use infusion mash. I have been having a temp problem and consistently over/undershooting my mash temps. I tried something I saw in the July/Aug BYO and came within .2 F of where I was shooting.

I'll call it a success. Still only hit about 70% efficiency. However, I was batch sparging for the first time and I boiled off a little more water than I expected. I topped up with about 1/2 gallon of distilled after my boil and my OG was right at what I'd anticipated for 70%.

Not that the batch sparge had anything to do with my boil rate.

Don't forget to update us when it's ready to drink.

ajdelange said:

Don't forget to update us when it's ready to drink.

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Kegged the batch over the weekend. It had not dried as much as I'd hoped after 2 weeks so I topped up with a re-hydrated packet of S-05. By the end of week 3, I was actually a couple of points below where I had anticipated, so I kegged it.

As is my practice, I refrigerate the hydrometer sample for 10 min or so after taking my final gravity reading, then take it out for a taste.

ajdelange, I believe you have hit on my problem. Prior to this batch, I had made all beers (light/dark color; light/heavy body; malty or bitter) with my largely untreated, highly-alkaline tap water. I would toss the occasional teaspoon or 2 of gypsum in a dark or bitter beer because that's what I was supposed to do.

But my water was always undiluted so I am not sure that I was ever getting my alkalinity down to an acceptable level. And I was never putting gypsum in my mash water, so I am not sure if I was even bringing down the RA sufficiently on my dark beers.

This beer, fresh from the fermenter (3 weeks total) tasted superb. The flavors were much more bright. I could pick up layers of citrus from my hops, distinct grainy overtones from the wheat and rye, and could even isolate the lighter "hefe" profile of the WLP320.

Thanks for all your help aj. I look forward to trying my Pliny clone (double IPA and the second beer I've brewed since you and I started talking). It may be a bit higher in sulfates than you would normally recommend. But it got my CA to 68 (sulfate was a little shy of 60) and the RA was at 24. I added a couple of ounces of acidulated malt for good measure.

On brew day my mash strips (no, I've not yet invested in a pH meter) showed me between 4.8 and 5.0 (after adjusting for the fact that as you say, they can read up to .3 low).

I did read in the most recent BYO (Sept 2010), an article from a pro brewer, offering some general rules of thumb on water chemistry. To sum up his advice:
- Get your RA below 50 by any means available, but most often he recommends dilution because of its simplicity.
- Get your calcium near or above 50 by (CaCl additions for malty beers and gypsum additions for bitter beers).

Once you take those 2 basic steps, he suggests making that your "basic" brewing water. From that he then recommends adjusting your other additions either to taste or to style if you're targeting water from a specific region or brewery.

It sounds like a broad simplification of your advice; but based on our discussions, I can't see anything with which I would disagree. I think I am ready to tackle some of the additional reading you recommend.