I am more pissed than ever at Pennsylvania liquor laws

So I went to N.C. to visit my dad for the past week and I had the pleasure of shopping for beer at the supermarket. (In PA, You can only buy liquor at state-run package stores or at specially licensed bars. )

The had a wonderful selection. I bought Stone Ruination, Dead Guy and Mothership Wit and the New Belgian Summer Ale. They had 20 or 30 beers that I have seen discussed at length on this site but have little chance to try because in stupid PA I can only buy them by the case or by paying 3 times the price for a six pack.

Example: In NC I paid $8 for a six of Dead Guy, in PA the same six costs me $22!

I also bought a couple cases of wine. Another example of usurious PA laws: In PA I paid $13.99 for a particular bottle, in NC I found the same exact bottle for $4.99!

I knew it was a pita to shop in PA AND I knew I was paying extra for the hassle, but I didn't realize how absolutely ridiculously PA is gouging their residents.

Not only that, but because it is a pita for the producers to do business in PA, there is an absolutely abysmal selection available.

The government has no business being in business. There is way too much evidence of it's inability to do it efficiently.

Screw PA liquor laws.

One benefit is that it has created a pretty big beer-geek culture in Philly. Hard to find beers are really sought out and cherished, as I am sure you know.

Go to Total Wine in Claymont, DE, just 20 mins down the road. Or even better, go to State Line Liquors in MD. They both blow the pants off anything you can find in Philly. You can mix and match your own six packs at each place. And for liquor, go to Canals in Jersey. I totally agree with your post, but I haven't purchased anything alcoholic in PA in ages.

The laws are positively draconian - and I'm thankful I can hop across the line into MD and hit my favorite bottle shop in 25 minutes.

Truthfully, I haven't bought any commercial beer by the case in PA in probably 3 months. The selection is quite good, though.

Both of your responses perfectly illustrate the total blindness of the policy (and politicians) of PA. They think "yeah, we'll do it this way and just rake in huge tax benefits." while subscribing to the belief that people will buy their booze no matter how much they are charged.

Meanwhile half of the state's liquor sales are going to neighboring states. Idiots.

The way I purchase is I have my bil buy wine for me in Jersey. And I don't buy beer except when I am out of state.

(There is a beer place with great selection in Wayne but they are a case place. I never want to buy a case of anything. Period. Usually I want to try one or two to see if I want to clone it.)

I was going to suggest like Harkin suggested and just hop the line to DE. I lived in PA most of my life and I used to buy by the case. But that was pre-homebrewing. Now I have my own beer by the case (or keg) and would only want to sample commercial beer by the single or sixer. I agree with you about PA's liquor laws... pretty ridiculous. Better than Utah, I guess.

Meanwhile half of the state's liquor sales are going to neighboring states. Idiots.

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I'm not sure that's true. PA is a big state, and a beer drinker (craft or otherwise) in the center of the state doesn't have the means to cross statelines and buy more conveniently. As far as wine and spirits go, it is a similar arrangement in VA where liquor stores are run by the state - and I rarely heard any objections about that arrangement.

The laws are loosening somewhat, particularly with the recent victories Wegman's won in the Commonwealth to sell 12 packs of regional beers, but they have some serious ground to make up.

Those states are so small, what's the problem with crossing a couple to stock up?

I know how you feel, it's even worse in Sweden.

flyangler18 said:

I'm not sure that's true. PA is a big state, and a beer drinker (craft or otherwise) in the center of the state doesn't have the means to cross statelines and buy more conveniently. As far as wine and spirits go, it is a similar arrangement in VA where liquor stores are run by the state - and I rarely heard any objections about that arrangement.

The laws are loosening somewhat, particularly with the recent victories Wegman's won in the Commonwealth to sell 12 packs of regional beers, but they have some serious ground to make up.

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Someone in central PA may be screwed, but I'd guess at least two-thirds of the states population live within less than an hour from another state (between Philly, Pittsburgh, Allentown, Harrisburg, Erie etc...). I grew up in Baltimore, and lived in Florida for several years, but one of the things I love about So Cal is 24-hour grocery stores with beer, wine and liquor.

I grew up in PA, but I haven't spent a ton of time there since I was 18. However, I still visit the family sometimes, and each visit makes me more aware of the awful laws. During my last visit, just a few weeks ago, I felt positively handicapped! I wanted to share some good beer with a few close relatives, so I went to a fairly big distributor to check out the selection. I bought a case of Mike's Hard (something) for the ladies and found a 12-pack sampler of Troeg's. I was informed at checkout that I had to buy two of the 12-packs since they couldn't sell anything less than cases. I gladly picked up the other 12, knowing that they'd probably be good beers. The bill came to over $70!!! WTF!?!? Later in the week, my Dad and I stopped by a pizza joint to grab a six-pack, and the best we could muster was Beck's Dark. It cost something like $12!!! I really wanted to try some of the up-and-coming locally brewed micros, but the Troeg's sampler was all I found, and the prices were so prohibitive that I was afraid to even shop around. What a shame.

On a positive note, Troeg's Dreamweaver Wheat was heavenly. I've heard that they can be inconsistent, but I must've gotten an exceptional batch. It was a VERY tasty Bavarian style hefeweizen, unlike any other domestically brewed wheat beer that I've ever had.

+1Wegmans. My local beer distributor has a good selection but you have to buy a whole case.

Wegmans has a really good selection of crafts... Tons of stone, bells, green flash.... Also a lot of Belgians

Consumers will never learn that IF you keep paying a particularly HIGH price for an item the seller will continually up the price...let a bunch of high demand perishable items not sell and the price will drop like bird crap because they don't want to take a complete loss...

I grew up and spent most of my life in PA in the Lehigh Valley. Now I know exactly what everyone means as we used to drive to Jersey to find exotic stuff in sixers or for liquor.

The one thing I really miss though is the beer distributor system, which is by the Case only. There are basically warehouses of beer and you get a case price discount. There is nothing like that in CA or WA state.

The best selection was in a smaller town called Emmaus PA. The place is Shangys Beer Authority and they must have carried well over a hundered very good beers. It was like a beer candy shop. I mean I used to buy 3 floyds alpha by the case for like $25 bucks (8 years or so ago) Shangys is rated on Beeradvocate pretty much straight A's by every reviewer.

There was also another neat place that was a drive through. You drove in, a guy came up to your window, you told him what you wanted, he popped the case in your trunk, and you drove back out. Pretty cool. So anyway I get the archaic laws are kinda sucky, but be thankful for your distributors. If I want a case in WA I have to pretty much have to buy 4 six packs.

noob checking in, but i think have some tips.

you have your location as Philly, so you're closer to it than i am. In Bethlehem (or just outside, not sure), PA there's a shop called Abe's Beer or somesuch. All they sell in there are single bottles of beer. As an example of what they have, they had every Trappist ale available in the US. I even (just a month or two ago) bought a bottle of Stone Vertical Epic 7/7/07. They have rare beers available in single bottles and fair prices. I highly recommend them. Also, if you're ever in Jersey, head to the Buy-Rite on Oak Tree Road. It's the #1 beer seller in the country according to (i think) ratebeer or beeradvocate. They also deal mainly in singles, and actually have very little as far as cases go.

Hope this helps. =)

I smell a grassroots legislation modification campaign starting to form....

Do some research... put some more numbers together with what you already have here... get a cheap website and have people start writing to their local reps. That's the only way you'll get it changed.

Get some distributors, pro brewers, etc on your side and go to town

I have grown very tired of the laws in PA. I have actually only bought beer once this year (keg of NN). It is difficult to justify paying the cost of a batch of beer for only 2 six packs. That and there are only 2 places in Lancaster with good 6 pack selections. There are plenty of places with decent case selections, but I no longer wish to buy cases.

I find it ironic that you're comparing PA to NC, which also has similar laws, except they apply only to liquor. I can still remember being frustrated by the limited selection and insane prices at the ABC package stores when I lived there.

Although as a fellow brewer and beer lover, I can certainly commiserate about being charged such high prices for good craft brew.

Zen_Brew said:

The one thing I really miss though is the beer distributor system, which is by the Case only. There are basically warehouses of beer and you get a case price discount. There is nothing like that in CA or WA state.

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Sure, there's a discount in comparison to buying by the six pack, but the prices are still astronomical at the distributors in PA.

fineexampl said:

All they sell in there are single bottles of beer. As an example of what they have, they had every Trappist ale available in the US. I even (just a month or two ago) bought a bottle of Stone Vertical Epic 7/7/07. They have rare beers available in single bottles and fair prices.

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I believe that you can get a decent bottle selection, I have two similar places near me. It is the cost that is killer.

I have a place 100 yards from my front door that has a hundred or two different bottles. But the prices they charge are not at all reasonable. Average price is $3 per.

And Cape, when I was writing my original post I was thinking along the same lines. The fact that Wegman's (which I do not have near me) has gotten at least partially around the laws is encouraging.

weirdboy said:

I find it ironic that you're comparing PA to NC, which also has similar laws, except they apply only to liquor. I can still remember being frustrated by the limited selection and insane prices at the ABC package stores when I lived there.

Although as a fellow brewer and beer lover, I can certainly commiserate about being charged such high prices for good craft brew.

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Actually I believe almost all states have package stores for distilled spirits, but I could be wrong. I have never lived in a state without them ( and I have lived in eleven states.)

I have only lived in two states where you could not buy beer and wine in grocery stores. Delaware was the other one.

In PA they have Spirits and Wine Stores, Case Beer stores, and stores with bar licenses that allow them to sell beer by the single. Another interesting little rule is that the bar stores can sell no more than two six packs. If you want more you have to leave and come back.

If you are having a party and want to serve mixed drinks, beer and wine, you have to go the grocery store to get mixers, to the liquor store to get the liquor and wine, the case store to get a couple cases, and then the singles store to get a few special bottles for yourself to keep hidden in the vegetable drawer.

PA sounds worse that Utah if that is possible. At least in UT you can buy 3.2 at the grocery store. The state stores sell the higher ABV which while much more expensive, have a very good selection of beers both domestic and imported. Even the mormons realized that money talks and bull**** walks. What gives with PA? You guys don't have mormons there! Who made the dumb laws???

$22 bucks a 6 for dead guy? Where in the world are you paying that? I can get 6ers of that for 10 bucks at every bar and take out shop around me.

I agree that our state's laws and distribution methods need an overhaul but at the same time, the OP is a bit inaccurate.

Retail availability? Beer is available by the case at beer distributors, by the bottle and six pack at bars, deli's/Pizza shops and Wegmans Markets using a deli license (and prior to Wegmans, Sheetz and Vidalia Market). Many of the botttle/6pk retailers have a healthy markup on the price compared to buying at a distributor. Yes, this is a sucky draconian method of retailing beer and depending on where you live, you might not have a lot of options. This is the biggest PITA about PA.

Selection? We actually have an amazing selection of beer in this state....depending on where you live. Check the PALCBs list of registered brands and tell me what brewery that distributes in this general region is missing from the list? Craft brewers are constantly pushing to get into the competitive Phila market. One major drawback is due to the distro method; the master distributors for the majority of craft brands are located in Phila/Allentown (shangys, bella vista, etc) and the eastern side of the state gets better treatment. However, the biggest problem with selection is more due to what your local retailers choose to stock.


....it's far from perfect but it isn't the black hole that some folks paint it out to be.

RayInUT said:

PA sounds worse that Utah if that is possible. At least in UT you can buy 3.2 at the grocery store. The state stores sell the higher ABV which while much more expensive, have a very good selection of beers both domestic and imported. Even the mormons realized that money talks and bull**** walks. What gives with PA? You guys don't have mormons there! Who made the dumb laws???

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Alright let's not get carried away. I was raised in PA, the beer laws are silly but manageable. The beer is not that unreasonably priced. I used to get cases of Yuengling Lord Chesterfiled Ale for like $14. I spent a week on asignment for work in the Draper area of Utah. I'm sorry, but you guys have some really fubar alcohol laws all the way around. There is not a beer on tap in the SLC area over 3.2 near as i could tell, and they have to special mark the bottles over 3.2. Sort of like the scarlet letter for beer. Don't even get me started on the mixed drink and wine laws.

I really feel for beer lovers in Utah.

Retail availability? Beer is available by the case at beer distributors, by the bottle and six pack at bars, deli's/Pizza shops and Wegmans Markets using a deli license (and prior to Wegmans, Sheetz and Vidalia Market). Many of the botttle/6pk retailers have a healthy markup on the price compared to buying at a distributor. Yes, this is a sucky draconian method of retailing beer and depending on where you live, you might not have a lot of options. This is the biggest PITA about PA.

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QFT. Between the two distributors here in town and a couple a bit further away, my local bars (KCLingers and Cobblestones) and the MD bottleshop I mentioned in the OP, I have access to the lion's share of craft brews, Belgians, etc. The local distributor's ordering habits (influenced by geography) is the weakest link in the supply chain - I'm very lucky by virtue of my proximiity to really good distributors, others aren't.

I was in Philly a few years back with some buddies and we decided we wanted to get some beer. We first tried the grocery store. No dice. They told us to to try the 7-11. Nope. The 7-11 sent us to the hoagie place next door, and sure enough, we could buy beer there. It was a little ridiculous.

I live in Pittsburgh and have not bought beer here since I began homebrewing. I also make my own wine (more for SWMBO) and again have not paid the high cost associated with PA.

There are a number of nice micro-breweries and micro brew pubs through my area and many sell growlers of the stuff if you really want to take some home. "East End Brewing" even sells 5 gallon kegs of their product at specially selected distributers. SWMBO often buys cases of ML cans cause the stuff I make is not her style, but she will occasionaly indulge in a pint or two.

I like the idea of a web-site to get things changed, but with thug's like our PA politicians, it would take some serious participation by the people to make it happen

Salute!

Whatever happened to the legislation that a year or so ago was moving through the house that was going to change some of the laws? The new law was supposed to let the bottle shops sell up to 186 oz. (3 - 6-packs, up from just 2) and would also allow the distributors to sell 6-packs. I recall that it looked like this was going to happen, and now it seems to have disappeared.

It sounded great. People in buying a case might then pick up an additional sixer of something new to try without having to buy a whole case. And then the bottle shops could sell more beer to those who didn't want to drive all the way to a distributor. Seemed kinda win-win (-win) for the distributors, bottle shops and US.

dontman said:

So I went to N.C. to visit my dad for the past week and I had the pleasure of shopping for beer at the supermarket. (In PA, You can only buy liquor at state-run package stores or at specially licensed bars. )

The had a wonderful selection. I bought Stone Ruination, Dead Guy and Mothership Wit and the New Belgian Summer Ale. They had 20 or 30 beers that I have seen discussed at length on this site but have little chance to try because in stupid PA I can only buy them by the case or by paying 3 times the price for a six pack.

Example: In NC I paid $8 for a six of Dead Guy, in PA the same six costs me $22!

I also bought a couple cases of wine. Another example of usurious PA laws: In PA I paid $13.99 for a particular bottle, in NC I found the same exact bottle for $4.99!

I knew it was a pita to shop in PA AND I knew I was paying extra for the hassle, but I didn't realize how absolutely ridiculously PA is gouging their residents.

Not only that, but because it is a pita for the producers to do business in PA, there is an absolutely abysmal selection available.

The government has no business being in business. There is way too much evidence of it's inability to do it efficiently.

Screw PA liquor laws.

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I know it sucks but what the hell......we brew our own anyway.

pjj2ba said:

Whatever happened to the legislation that a year or so ago was moving through the house that was going to change some of the laws? The new law was supposed to let the bottle shops sell up to 186 oz. (3 - 6-packs, up from just 2) and would also allow the distributors to sell 6-packs. I recall that it looked like this was going to happen, and now it seems to have disappeared.

It sounded great. People in buying a case might then pick up an additional sixer of something new to try without having to buy a whole case. And then the bottle shops could sell more beer to those who didn't want to drive all the way to a distributor. Seemed kinda win-win (-win) for the distributors, bottle shops and US.

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Last I read, it stalled out....problem is these days that if you make any changes to the current environment, you're likely or perceptibly taking money out of one groups pockets and putting it into another groups pockets and each set of pockets has their own lobbying efforts and sympathetic representatives.

I spent most of the summer of '81 in the Poconos, and after growing up in Chicago, where I had a fake ID(allegedly) and was buying stores and bars at the age of 16(allegedly), I was amazed at how backwards the liquor laws were in Pa. When I was told that I had to go to a "state store" to buy ANYTHING, I was speechless.
Even back then, I was a bit of a beer geek, and I walked out of the state store with a 6 of Gennessee(sp ?), and never went back, due to the selection available. It was the first, and only, time in my life that I was thankful for having relatives in Jersey, so I could stock up there !

I do several camping trips in PA. I bring beer from NY because I can buy Troegs and other PA brewed beers cheaper here than I can in the state they make it . And I can mix and match anything I want at the beer distributor Half Time. I can buy a single , 6 ,12 pack or case at a time . Liquor is sold only at liquor stores but they are privately owned not state run....



Now when I go New Hampshire I stock up on liquor because their state stores are way cheaper than NY prices due to the lower sin tax. Only state I know that has liquor store at an interstate rest area

I am from Maryland and live the good life of beer selection, but now I am in PA and it is sucking the life out of me. I have some fellow beer connoisseur friends and we make trips down to Maryland to get better selection and prices. I like to go to Beltway Liquors in Loch Raven because it is the size of a grocery store and they have TONS of single bottles. I walk out of there with over $50.00 just in single bottles so I can try different beers. I could not imagine trying to have a successful brewery in PA with the laws they have in place. I hope over the years something changes because it is just getting too difficult to buy in this state and they are forcing the people who really enjoy beer to buy from other states.

Out of curiosity..there are lots of compliants in this thread, many I agree with...some I don't. What have any of you done to change things?

If you have a crappy selection, have you urged your local retailer to carry different brands?

If you don't like the current laws, have you contacted you state reps?

Price, I don't think, is ever going to go down. Once you let the government tap into a revenue vein, they hardly ever stop feeding.

brewt00l said:

If you have a crappy selection, have you urged your local retailer to carry different brands?

If you don't like the current laws, have you contacted your state reps?

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Yes and yes.

flyangler18 said:

Yes and yes.

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good on ya!



For anyone who doesn't know who to talk to:
The Pennsylvania General Assembly - Find Your Legislator

I mentioned the crazy laws to Allyson Schwartz along with numerous other complaints. Her reply, to paraphrase, was tough s*$#.

Having said that, the place close to me said they would entertain a special order if I could give them names. But they also said that that didn't mean they could get everything.

When I moved here in 2002, I asked "where's the beer?" at the store and the girl replied "You aren't from here are you?" I can go home to St Louis and have as good of a selection in the 7-11.

NAVET said:

I mentioned the crazy laws to Allyson Schwartz along with numerous other complaints. Her reply, to paraphrase, was tough s*$#.

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Considering that she is a US Representative, I don't know what response about PA state legislation I would expect from her....you can find your state representatives in that link a few posts up.

I'm just leaving Lancaster from vacation. During the arduous search to find some east coast beers not available in AZ I felt screwed. However then I found State Line Liquors - Beer, Fine Wines & Spirits Homepage . Although it was in MD it was well worth the drive. They have the largest selection of micro and import beer I have seen outside Bevmo and Total wine. The prices were comparable to AZ prices also. I would recommend the trip to anyone in PA that lives close enough.

brewt00l said:

Considering that she is a US Representative, I don't know what response about PA state legislation I would expect from her....you can find your state representatives in that link a few posts up.

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It was mentioned in the context of asking what her thoughts were about the government, state or local, being in alcohol sales. I asked her about the government, state or local, being or not being in the business of being in business.
Trust me, my reps hear from me weekly about this and much more.