What a cluster f@$k!

Ok, all grain session #2 was a complete disaster, though I believe I managed to salvage the beer. Interested to know what y'all think, with any recommendations.

Setup:
HLT - 15 gal stainless Bayou w/ball valve conversion
MLT - 10 gal igl0o w/stainless domed false bottom
BK - 10 gal stainless Bayou w/ 2x ball valve conversion (1 bottom side pick up tube & 1 whirlpool)
Pump - March 809
Therminator chiller

Recipe:

10 lbs 2 row pale
1 lbs victory
1 lbs Crystal 60L
.5 lbs Carapils
5oz Acid Malt
1 oz Simcoe - 60 min
.5 oz Amarillo - 20 min
.5 oz Amarillo - 10 min
1 pkg Fermentis SafeAle


Issue) Missed my mash-in temp by 3 degrees (151 vs 154)
Solution?) Increase strike temp and/or start pre-heating MLT

Issue) Initial pH of 5.10, adjusted to 5.50 with 3 grams of NaHCO3, re-adjusted to 5.3 with 2 oz of acid malt. Used EZ_water_Calcs to get 2% acid grain bill. Acid malt seems to have more acidic than required.
Solution?) Take initial pH after Mash in and then add Acid Malt?

Issue) OG WAAAAY OFF... I mean 1.030 vs 1.068 off. Yeah.
Solution?) Think my LHBS crush sucks (he says it is 75% but couldn't tell me the mill diameter) + issues above resulted in horrible efficiency.

Issue) Pre-volume boil about 4 quarts low
Solution?) Dont drink 4 beers on an empty stomach while brewing, I think 3 quarts of it ended up on myself

So I ended up boiling off until I was at 1.046 (2 hrs later), started my hops cycle then, and ended up with 1.054 with a final volume around 4 gal.

It is happily fermenting now, tasted the wort and had nice flavors, no major off flavors that I could detect.

Hang in there it gets better! My first few were a cluster also!

It gets better!

Couple of points:

Yes, preheating is necessary when using a cooler for a MLT. I preheat mine for 30 minutes, starting with 180-185F water. My mash doesn't drop more than a degree in 1 hour. Most of the time, it's around 0.5F.

I use 5.2 Buffer from Five Star and don't worry about PH. That being said, the style you're after might require a different approach. I don't know.

When I use my cooler I preheat too. If you miss your temp add some boiling water. A watered down mash is better than missing your mash temp by a lot IMHO.

Boodlemania said:

It gets better!

Couple of points:

Yes, preheating is necessary when using a cooler for a MLT. I preheat mine for 30 minutes, starting with 180-185F water. My mash doesn't drop more than a degree in 1 hour. Most of the time, it's around 0.5F.

I use 5.2 Buffer from Five Star and don't worry about PH. That being said, the style you're after might require a different approach. I don't know.

Click to expand...

I agree. Use the pH buffer until you everything else down and then tinker with your water chemistry

Thanks for the replies...

1) Definitely going to pre-heat the cooler
2) I think I will use the 1% of grist rule for the acid malt vs. the EZ Water Calc

I have read mixed reviews of the 5.2 buffer, ranging from a complete hoax to valuable tool, so am mixed about this one still. Has anyone used it with consistent readings from a pH meter justify its use?

Do you think that the issues listed above + poor grind account for the efficiency? Or could there be more lurking beneath the covers?

Issue) Missed my mash-in temp by 3 degrees (151 vs 154)
Solution?) Increase strike temp and/or start pre-heating MLT

Click to expand...

Just heat a little more than strike calculated and put that in the MLT. Then simply take the temp. Adjust temp. to calculated strike BEFORE adding the grain. I used to like to add water to grain, but doing grain to water lets you take all the variables out. Simply measure the temp of the water sitting in the MLT.

Issue) Initial pH of 5.10, adjusted to 5.50 with 3 grams of NaHCO3, re-adjusted to 5.3 with 2 oz of acid malt. Used EZ_water_Calcs to get 2% acid grain bill. Acid malt seems to have more acidic than required.
Solution?) Take initial pH after Mash in and then add Acid Malt?

Click to expand...

Why adjust away from 5.5? 5.5 is the perfect pH for the mash at room temp.

Issue) OG WAAAAY OFF... I mean 1.030 vs 1.068 off. Yeah.
Solution?) Think my LHBS crush sucks (he says it is 75% but couldn't tell me the mill diameter) + issues above resulted in horrible efficiency.

Click to expand...

I find it hard to believe anyone who is still in business would crush malt that bad. Something else is going on.

Mash temp and pH won't kill your efficiency that bad. It's either crush or sparge technique. If you can swing it, get a mill. Then you can buy grain by the 55# sack and you have complete control over your crush.

Low pre-boil volume = you left sugars in there. Also make sure you drain the MLT completely to finish your sparge.

I also prefer the SS Braid to the false bottom. Getting the braid changed my life.

pkeeler said:

Why adjust away from 5.5? 5.5 is the perfect pH for the mash at room temp.

Click to expand...

I thought the acceptable range is 5.2 - 5.7, whereas the "sweetspot" is 5.2 - 5.4. No?

ksbrain said:

Mash temp and pH won't kill your efficiency that bad. It's either crush or sparge technique. If you can swing it, get a mill. Then you can buy grain by the 55# sack and you have complete control over your crush.

Low pre-boil volume = you left sugars in there. Also make sure you drain the MLT completely to finish your sparge.

I also prefer the SS Braid to the false bottom. Getting the braid changed my life.

Click to expand...

I am guessing it is my sparge technique (or lack thereof). Was a bit all over the place to be honest. When I added additional H2O to bring up the water temp, didn't have the volume left I had set aside for the sparge. I had planned to to a mash out for a full body, but didn't hit the mashout temp either. Poor execution, one problem multiplying into several...

I am leaning towards the braid now. The dome looks pretty, but leaves a lot of dead space.

Make sure you sparge nice and slow....it usually takes me an hour to sparge 13 gallons....if you rush it you will get channeling. Learned this lesson the hard way. Now we are getting 85%

I'm suprised that you didn't use Cluster Hops (based on the title of the thread). Look at the bright side, your issues caused the brew day to be longer. Since you enjoy brewing, you got to do what you like for a longer period of time.

Ok I will start off by saying GRATS on your second AG day. Followed with back the complexity of this back about 75%. IMO and feel free to take my advice with a grain of salt. It is just that free advice. I am not a master...yet...

Temps- are those calibrated thermometers you are using? how accurate are they? I have a liquid one that is 3F off in the mashing range...aka my spare...I know some folks get super uptight about missing a temp. I would make sure it was at least legitimate 1st...Will a degree or 2 completely screw up your batch more than you screwing with it trying to get it perfect? Remember this is only your second AG batch! Make a note on your brew log about the slightly higher or lower temp. and MASH ON! You may end up with the best freaking beer on earth!

Initial PH - I seriously give you props for building water. I do things like this: Run tap water through a Pur filter and add 1 Camden tab per 5 gallons. KISS. I will one day build water but I feel I need to master other things 1st. If you are comfortable doing this, that is cool but it seems unnecessary at this point in the game. I see it as a way to gain more control but if you do not know what you are controlling, what is the point?

Efficiency - is more than just grain crush but it is a good place to start. I grind my own by sight not a gap thickness. Different grains take different thicknesses to get them right. Search for some pics, they are around here...some place...also are you batch or fly sparging? Batch, the grain can not really be over crushed unless you turn it to dust...folks get +70% with corona mills...did you use your mash paddle to make sure all the grain was free floating and mixed in well? With a domed bottom the edges on the bottom will be the "thick spots".

Pre boil volume 1 gallon low, that sounds like absorption by the grains to me, increase your mash water volumes by 1/2 gallon each or do 3 runnings if need be. The only regret is left behind sugars...I do 3 runnings, batch sparging. (This is a great practice, should you ever want to do a protein rest!)

Drinking on an empty stomach on brew day? Well that is ambitious...Plan out a brew days worth of meals a day in advance; eggs take 3 minutes to cook and you could even prep a sandwich or two the night before...don't be silly...

Not a brew day goes by where I do not learn more about my equipment or I get a "new piece" to incorporate. AG brew day 2 you are still learning yours. Don't beat yourself up or be discouraged and do not try to over complicate things to fast. Start simple, make great beer and improve a little at a time.

This is solely my opinion and what has worked for me, everyone is different.

Best of luck and please keep us updated on the fermentation to glass. I am banking you made a great beer!

Don't feel too bad... today was my 2nd BIAB day.... was going great until 20 mins into the boil I realized all my grains and bag were still in the freakin pot! Live and learn!!!

pkeeler said:

I find it hard to believe anyone who is still in business would crush malt that bad. Something else is going on.

Click to expand...

You would be surprised my LHBS cannot keep the mill consistent the gap is always huge and I told them where to set it and they set it back. Went from 75 percent to 45 percent on my last brew, I am buying a mill and grains in bulk they can have the $1.60 a pound base malt price!

minus the horrible efficiency and mssing your O.G. the rest of the brew day doesn't sound like that bad of a cluster F$% lol ..... RDWHAHB........

3 degrees off isn't horrible...... obviously you wanted to hit 154 but 151 is an acceptable mash temp and the difference in your finished beer would be almost undetectable except by you (and only because you knew you were 3 degrees low lol)

PH ..... man, i still haven't even take a PH reading. I bought some stips once and they didn't work worth a steaming dump. They are still sitting on my shelf.

Preheating your tun will help you maintain temp as the others have said. I just use about 3 gallons of "hot" water out of the faucet and leave it in my tun while I am heating my strike water.

I wouldn't jump to the braid just yet ........ I mean, yes ...... jump to the braid right away. I will PM you an address where you can send your false bottom to lol.

There is somethign else going on if you really got that horrible of efficiency. It's not a quart of deadspace that's throwing you out of whack that much.

I would like to know what type of cooler you have? Why the temp is being a stickler! I always make sure i stir the mash water to get an accurate temp from my thermometer. If your floating thermometer or clip on thermometer is only reading the area of the BK it is in that maybe the problem. Try siring the mash water for 2 min while holding the thermometer steady in the center of BK. I've never preheated my mash tun, even in the coldest days, but the mash tun stays inside until i'm ready to empty mash water into it.
Here's a tip: Make sure your reading your temp from the correct side of the thermometer. The only reason i say this is I've messed up a couple times by reading the C side instead of the F side :-(

Zamial said:

Not a brew day goes by where I do not learn more about my equipment or I get a "new piece" to incorporate. AG brew day 2 you are still learning yours. Don't beat yourself up or be discouraged and do not try to over complicate things to fast. Start simple, make great beer and improve a little at a time.

This is solely my opinion and what has worked for me, everyone is different.

Best of luck and please keep us updated on the fermentation to glass. I am banking you made a great beer!

Click to expand...

I agree. It takes time to understand and learn your equipment. :rockin:

Just keep going. I'm on all grain number five and still having the same issues you are. We need to get our processes consistent before we look for external problems (grain crush, LT design, etc.)

I'm glad you posted since I was starting to think of external causes too and you made me come back to reality. Let's face it, we're noobs, but the beer is still awesome regardless of these technical issues. RDWHAHB

I thought the acceptable range is 5.2 - 5.7, whereas the "sweetspot" is 5.2 - 5.4. No?

Click to expand...

I think the acceptable range is 4.9-6 at 25 C. The literature is pretty confusing because some quote mash temps and some room temps. But optimum mash pH is 5.4-5.7 at room temp.

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Theory_of_Mashing#Mash_pH_targets

Here is my typical brew day!
- I crush my own grain! Not sure what the gap is and I don't care
- I bring my mash water up to 170F! When I get close to this temp I mix/stir the water to make sure that my reading is accurate to entire mash water temp!
- Once the temp hits 170F I drain entire mash water into cooler then mix in grain! Making sure there are no dough balls!! Let the mash sit for the hour or until I get my Sparge water up to 170F!!
- I drain entire Sparge water into two buckets so I can drain my entire mash wort into BK! Once the mash wort is drained into BK, I pour first sparge water bucket into Mash tun mixing the grain in good for a few mins! Once it looks like the grain calmed down I drain entire Sparge wort into BK repeat with the second Sparge water bucket!!!
I have always gotten efficiency above 70%!
I have also done hot tap water for sparging around 115F-120F and come up with same results in efficiency

I have well water and PH has never been a worry!! I've checked mash PH and it registers 5.0!

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!! DONT GET TO TIED UP IN THE SCIENCE OF BREWING BEER, BECAUSE IF YOU DO IT WILL ALWAYS BE F@$KED UP
-

Zamial said:

Ok I will start off by saying GRATS on your second AG day. Followed with back the complexity of this back about 75%. IMO and feel free to take my advice with a grain of salt. It is just that free advice. I am not a master...yet...

Click to expand...

^^ This

Most thermometers are +/- 2F and those that are more precise are more expensive. I personally use a lab thermometer to calibrate all my other thermometers in the house - keeps the glass one from constant use and potential breakage. On top of that 2 or 3 degrees is not really the end if your in the ball park.

To this day, I have yet to worry about pH. Not saying this is unimportant but really in a homebrew setting it's not truly critical. Of course I'll probably take a brick to the head for saying that but it's MHO.

SG off - as stated before there is more goin on here.

It will get better. Soon you will either go complete OCD and have it down pat or it will go to the other spectrum and everything will be second nature.

Most importantly - have fun! :fro:

Thanks for all the words of encouragement, rest assured there is no turning back now. My hobsession has taken root...

Zamial said:

Temps- are those calibrated thermometers you are using? how accurate are they?

Click to expand...

I am using 2 podler digital temps, good point though on the accuracy; I believe the 609 is +/- 2 degrees

Zamial said:

Initial PH - I seriously give you props for building water. I do things like this: Run tap water through a Pur filter and add 1 Camden tab per 5 gallons. KISS. I will one day build water but I feel I need to master other things 1st. If you are comfortable doing this, that is cool but it seems unnecessary at this point in the game. I see it as a way to gain more control but if you do not know what you are controlling, what is the point?

Click to expand...

I'm trying to get it in the ranges Palmer quotes. Basically, softening my water a bit with Gypsum and using Camden tabs to neutralize the chloramines. If you using it for the same, I believe 1 tab will treat 20 gal.

Zamial said:

also are you batch or fly sparging?

Click to expand...

Batch sparging for now. It was very well stirred in, no thick spots I could detect.

Zamial said:

Pre boil volume 1 gallon low, that sounds like absorption by the grains to me, increase your mash water volumes by 1/2 gallon each or do 3 runnings if need be. The only regret is left behind sugars...I do 3 runnings, batch sparging. (This is a great practice, should you ever want to do a protein rest!)

Click to expand...

Agreed, I would rather extract all the sugars I can and boil off the extra water. Couple of extra things I realized today.. Putting a sight gauge on my BK... that will help me know where I am with the "pre-boil" volume and will help know when to start my hops cycles.

yeast_infection said:

I wouldn't jump to the braid just yet ........ I mean, yes ...... jump to the braid right away. I will PM you an address where you can send your false bottom to lol.

There is somethign else going on if you really got that horrible of efficiency. It's not a quart of deadspace that's throwing you out of whack that much.

Click to expand...

HA! I believe you are right.. I am not going to change out the equipment until my process is stable.

SpottedDogBrewing said:

I would like to know what type of cooler you have?

Here's a tip: Make sure your reading your temp from the correct side of the thermometer. The only reason i say this is I've messed up a couple times by reading the C side instead of the F side :-(

Click to expand...

I have a Igloo 10gal with a domed SS false bottom. Luckily, I am using digital with large display, so it is about as fool proof as it can get!

Ravenshead said:

Just keep going. I'm on all grain number five and still having the same issues you are. We need to get our processes consistent before we look for external problems (grain crush, LT design, etc.)

I'm glad you posted since I was starting to think of external causes too and you made me come back to reality. Let's face it, we're noobs, but the beer is still awesome regardless of these technical issues. RDWHAHB

Click to expand...

You are dead on, I will learn more about my setup as I go, process first... Get it repeatable, shoot how about predictable...

pkeeler said:

I think the acceptable range is 4.9-6 at 25 C. The literature is pretty confusing because some quote mash temps and some room temps. But optimum mash pH is 5.4-5.7 at room temp.

http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Theory_of_Mashing#Mash_pH_targets

Click to expand...

Brilliant, thanks for clearing that up.. I have been adjusting my pH for no reason!

Thanks again for all the advice...