Ramping fast with HERMS? You?

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Yorg

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If you are ramping at greater than 1C per minute in a HERMS setup, what are the design elements that allow you to do it?

(Please don't turn this into a HERMS can or can't do step mashing - I've read enough on that elsewhere. I really just want to hear from people who actually do step with it.)

Thanks.
 
Sorry Bobby, by "design elements" I meant aspects of the design that would allow the mash (not the outlet) temperature to ramp at greater than 1C (or approx 2F).

(1C seems to be what most HERMS users are happy with - but I would like to achieve a greater ramp rate.)

Cheers.
 
I THINK that BobbyM meant... it isnt so much design, as it is how you configure it to run. You have to overshoot the HERMS outlet temp. a certain degree to make it happen, and almost ANY HERMS is capable of doing that. The OUTLET temp. must overshoot your target MASH temp. to a degree to get the MASH temp to increase quickly.

Not so much design, just how you run it.
 
You know, the other 'design element' I'm thinking may be part of the solution of a fast ramp without an unduly high difference between mash target and HEX outlet is the flow rate.
Faster flow rate.
This seems to be a limiting factor in current HERMS designs.
 
You know, the other 'design element' I'm thinking may be part of the solution of a fast ramp without an unduly high difference between mash target and HEX outlet is the flow rate.
Faster flow rate.
This seems to be a limiting factor in current HERMS designs.

Flow rate is a limiting factor, but there is a finite speed at which you can recirculate without getting the false bottom or manifold stuck. From the testing that has been done here, pumping right up to that threshold didnt offer much in increased speed of the step up.

Increased speed will equal less heat transfer in the HERMS coil of course. If you have a long enough coil in the HLT, you will still get a suitable rise in temp in the coil.

All I know is that there have been many designs, many attempts with RIMS and HERMS and this question of "how" exists years later.

I personally dont step mash with my HERMS, it is much easier and faster to do a quick water transfer from the HLT to step up the MLT.

I think that just about every limiting factor has been discussed in onthis board, but in most cases no one will build anything to test it, so practical answers are not available.
 
Patience Pol, I'll be messing with HERMS and RIMS plenty when I finish my kitchen project. I agree with you in theory though. A lot more people talk way more than they build.
 
Patience Pol, I'll be messing with HERMS and RIMS plenty when I finish my kitchen project. I agree with you in theory though. A lot more people talk way more than they build.

I look forward to seeing your work BobbbyM.

Yes there is lots of talk, very little action. I am certain that I could use anti-matter to reach a step faster, anyone have any idea how much I will need?

Thanks in advance. :drunk:
 
It's not my system, so I can't answer detailed Q's, but in another thread, seveener said he could quickly step with his HERMS (122º to 151º in 10 minutes).

IMHO, a reasonable flow (not too fast), small volume heat exchanger and a fairly large electric element (controlled according to the temperature of wort exiting it) is the recipe for success.

This will give a system that circulates all the wort through the heat exchanger within say 2-3 minutes, maintains the heat in the heat exchanger and prevents the wort from being overheated.

/Phil.

Here's a link to his brewery details. Phil's HERMS Brewery
 
It's not my system, so I can't answer detailed Q's, but in another thread, seveener said he could quickly step with his HERMS (122º to 151º in 10 minutes).



Here's a link to his brewery details. Phil's HERMS Brewery

Yeah, ask him, he is the only person I have seen in three years that can get 3F per minute rise in the MLT.

I have seen others who have tested this and not gotten the same result. They have measured the HERMS outlet temp. being equal to thier target MLT temp and they got about 1.5F/minute max. in the step. The step rate slows greatly as you approach the HERMS outlet temp. in thier tests.
 
Pol, Bobby, I have noted your posts and vids, and really appreciate what you guys have built.
I too, build things - the last being a corny converted to a steam generator, with a PID controlling the steam solenoid valve, and therefore the steam through a manifold in the mash - a steam powered recirculation system. I must get around to documenting it, at least with a few pics here.
BUT. I like to avail myself of the thinking available on this and the Australian forum, before making needless iterations of a build - especially as practical stuff is a self development activity for this desk jockey.
So I like to talk before action - a bit like foreplay ;)

Here's my latest thought on how to get a better ramp rate, please do reply with your thoughts:
Assuming a big mother element that can put out enough heat needed - no bottle neck here in other words.
Assuming enough coil in the HEX to allow wort to take up the energy before exiting.
Then - use a wider than conventional tun, increase the area of pass-through with a larger false bottom.
Say, for a doubling of the area, there should be a doubling of the flow rate acheivable before compaction becomes a problem, right?
(Or is my geometry/hydrodynamics understanding out?)

So for a 30cm falsie, like the one I have in my insulated cylindrical cooler, I would need to go to a 43 cm for doubling and a 52 cm for tripling of flow rate - which looks like being a practical max for mash tun width.

The next design issue to attend to then is the design of the return manifold and the pick up manifold, to ensure that the wort can be distributed evenly through the bed. That should nail it.
Any thought on what such manifolds should look like for say a 52 cm tun?
 
Pol, Bobby, I have noted your posts and vids, and really appreciate what you guys have built.
I too, build things - the last being a corny converted to a steam generator, with a PID controlling the steam solenoid valve, and therefore the steam through a manifold in the mash - a steam powered recirculation system. I must get around to documenting it, at least with a few pics here.
BUT. I like to avail myself of the thinking available on this and the Australian forum, before making needless iterations of a build - especially as practical stuff is a self development activity for this desk jockey.
So I like to talk before action - a bit like foreplay ;)

Here's my latest thought on how to get a better ramp rate, please do reply with your thoughts:
Assuming a big mother element that can put out enough heat needed - no bottle neck here in other words.
Assuming enough coil in the HEX to allow wort to take up the energy before exiting.
Then - use a wider than conventional tun, increase the area of pass-through with a larger false bottom.
Say, for a doubling of the area, there should be a doubling of the flow rate acheivable before compaction becomes a problem, right?
(Or is my geometry/hydrodynamics understanding out?)

So for a 30cm falsie, like the one I have in my insulated cylindrical cooler, I would need to go to a 43 cm for doubling and a 52 cm for tripling of flow rate - which looks like being a practical max for mash tun width.

The next design issue to attend to then is the design of the return manifold and the pick up manifold, to ensure that the wort can be distributed evenly through the bed. That should nail it.
Any thought on what such manifolds should look like for say a 52 cm tun?

I am not one to speculate, basically you need data points, and those are not easy to achieve without something as a prototype. I mean, worst case scenario you built a HERMS and can use your steam injection for steps.

I mean for a test you could use a standard size MLT, get about 10 pounds of unmilled grain (to allow MAX flow through the grain bed) and simply build the HUGE element and HUGE coil side of the HERMS. Try to step with the pump at max flow with this setup. If it works, then I would look to a source for the MLT and false bottom etc.

I mean, anyone could do this test on thier own HERMS to see if they can step with a MAX flow rate. Just use unmilled grain to give you the thermal mass in the MLT, but it wont allow for a stuck sparge. Seems to me it would work.
 
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