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nootay

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Mar 17, 2010
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Location
Dayton Virginia
The town i just moved to has a water analysis on their website. I have never adjusted my water before, but now that i have an analysis to base off of i dont see any reason why i shouldnt. Unfortunately i dont know understand the report. Can someone help me with brewing water for IPA/Pale ales?

http://www.cliftonforgeva.gov/files/CCR 2011.pdf

Thank You!!
 
You need more info. For brewing the concentrations you need to know are Na+, Ca2+, Mg2+, Cl-, (SO4)2-, and alkalinity. The city probably tests for these and has this info, but you'll most likely have to call someone to get these values since they don't put them in the report.
 
Well i finally heard back from the plant manager with this:

"We run PH, Cl2, fluoride and alkalinity tests on a daily basis. These results vary from day to day depending on various factors so if you could give me a call....."

Will this information help or will i just need to send my water off to get tested?
 
Well i finally heard back from the plant manager with this:

"We run PH, Cl2, fluoride and alkalinity tests on a daily basis. These results vary from day to day depending on various factors so if you could give me a call....."

Will this information help or will i just need to send my water off to get tested?

I'd send it for a sample. You still need sulfate (S04), and calcium. It's about $16.50 for a good test for brewing water from Ward Labs.
 
The parameters that interest you for brewing are different than what interests them for general water quality. I would find a testing lab that tests what you want (as posted previously) and send it to them.
 
If the guy is willing to take your call, take him up on it. Ask for
Alkalinity
pH
Calcium Hardness
Magnesium Hardness
(or total hardness and calcium hardness)
Chloride
Sulfate
Sodium
Nitrate
Iron
Manganese
Chlorine/Chloramine

Tell him that you don't understand what all these mean but that you have access to people who will explain them to you.

The most troublesome aspect of this is the "These results vary from day to day depending on various factors..." part. Depending on how much variation there is the results of a Ward Labs (or other lab) test can be rendered useless as what comes out of the tap today may little resemble what came out on the day you collected the sample for analysis. And it also can render what he tells you on any given day if you don't brew that day useless. If the variability is wide your options are

1. Call this bloke each time you brew
2. Test the water yourself each time you brew
3. Install an RO system

Obviously option 3 is the least painful once the initial pain of buying and installing the system has been born. Even with wide fluctuation is input water quality the output quality will be about the same.
 
well they sent me a pile of information. hopefully you can help weed through this:

Parameter Concentration Limit and Standard Test Result (Exceedances in Bold)
1002 ALUMINUM 0.05 &#8211; 0.20 MG/L SMCL < 0.05 MG/L
1005 ARSENIC 0.010 MG/L PMCL < 0.002 MG/L
1010 BARIUM 2 MG/L PMCL 0.022 MG/L
1015 CADMIUM 0.005 MG/L PMCL < 0.002 MG/L
1020 CHROMIUM 0.1 MG/L PMCL < 0.01 MG/L
1022 COPPER, FREE 1.3 MG/L Action Level < 0.01 MG/L
1028 IRON 0.3 MG/L SMCL < 0.05 MG/L
1030 LEAD 0.015 MG/L Action Level < 0.002 MG/L
1032 MANGANESE 0.05 MG/L SMCL < 0.01 MG/L
1035 MERCURY 0.002 MG/L PMCL < 0.0002 MG/L
1036 NICKEL < 0.01 MG/L
1045 SELENIUM 0.05 MG/L PMCL < 0.01 MG/L
1050 SILVER < 0.01 MG/L
1052 SODIUM 2.03 MG/L
1074 ANTIMONY, TOTAL 0.006 MG/L PMCL < 0.002 MG/L
1075 BERYLLIUM, TOTAL 0.004 MG/L PMCL < 0.002 MG/L
1085 THALLIUM, TOTAL 0.002 MG/L PMCL < 0.002 MG/L
1095 ZINC 5 MG/L SMCL < 0.01 MG/L

Parameter Concentration Limit and Standard Test Result (Exceedances in Bold)
0100 TURBIDITY < 0.1 NTU
1017 CHLORIDE 250 MG/L SMCL < 5 MG/L
1025 FLUORIDE 4.0 MG/L PMCL 0.99 MG/L
1044 ORTHOPHOSPHATE < 0.05 MG/L
1055 SULFATE 250 MG/L SMCL < 5 MG/L
1064 CONDUCTIVITY @ 25 C UMHOS/CM 80 UMHO/CM
1905 COLOR 15 COLOR UNITS SMCL < 5 CU
1910 CORROSIVITY SMCL 9.01 AGGR
1914 CALCIUM HARDNESS 27 MG/L
1915 HARDNESS, TOTAL (AS CAC03) 34 MG/L
1925 PH 8.5 pH SMCL 6.21 SU
1927 ALKALINITY, TOTAL 23.5 MG/L
1930 TDS 500 MG/L SMCL 40 MG/L


Parameter Concentration Limit and Standard Test Result (Exceedances in Bold)
2251 METHYL TERT-BUTYL ETHER < 5 UG/L
2378 1,2,4-TRICHLOROBENZENE 0.07 MG/L PMCL < 0.5 UG/L
2380 CIS-1,2-DICHLOROETHYLENE 0.07 MG/L PMCL < 0.5 UG/L
2941 CHLOROFORM 0.0075 MG/L
2942 BROMOFORM < 0.5 UG/L
2943 BROMODICHLOROMETHANE 0.002 MG/L
2944 DIBROMOCHLOROMETHANE < 0.5 UG/L
2955 XYLENES, TOTAL 10 MG/L PMCL < 0.5 UG/L
2964 DICHLOROMETHANE 0.005 MG/L PMCL < 0.5 UG/L
2968 O-DICHLOROBENZENE 0.6 MG/L PMCL < 0.5 UG/L
2969 P-DICHLOROBENZENE 0.075 MG/L PMCL < 0.5 UG/L
2976 VINYL CHLORIDE 0.002 MG/L PMCL < 0.5 UG/L
2977 1,1-DICHLOROETHYLENE 0.007 MG/L PMCL < 0.5 UG/L
2979 TRANS-1,2-DICHLOROETHYLENE 0.1 MG/L PMCL < 0.5 UG/L
2980 1,2-DICHLOROETHANE 0.005 MG/L PMCL < 0.5 UG/L
2981 1,1,1-TRICHLOROETHANE 0.2 MG/L PMCL < 0.5 UG/L
2982 CARBON TETRACHLORIDE 0.005 MG/L PMCL < 0.5 UG/L
2983 1,2-DICHLOROPROPANE 0.005 MG/L PMCL < 0.5 UG/L
2984 TRICHLOROETHYLENE 0.005 MG/L PMCL < 0.5 UG/L
2985 1,1,2-TRICHLOROETHANE 0.005 MG/L PMCL < 0.5 UG/L


Also in the email was this:

"As far as chlorine results are concerned, you may be better positioned to offer historical data that are specific to the particular neighborhood, but the latest bacteriological sample submitted to us reported chlorine of 0.45 ppm"

These samples were taken in April 2012.

Thanks for the help!
 
Here's the list of things I suggested you ask for and the results extracted from their report:

Alkalinity 23.5
pH 6.21
Calcium Hardness 27 ppm as CaCO3 (10.8 mg/L)
Magnesium Hardness 17 ppm as CaCO3 (4.1 mg/L)
Chloride < 5
Sulfate < 5
Sodium 2.03
Nitrate --
Iron 0.05
Manganese < 0.01
Chlorine/Chloramine ~ 0.45?

This is pretty good stuff. It must be well or spring water judging from the low pH and as I recall Clifton Forge is in a mountainous region over near the West Va border.

This water is soft enough that you can use the recommendations of the Primer and that's doubtless the simplest route for you at least to get you started. I'd have a look there and come back here with additional questions. An alternative to the Primer is to use one of the spreadsheets or calculators. They, however, require some investment in time to understand what they are telling you. At some point you should make that investment but probably not as you are just starting out.

WRT to the chlorine/chloramine: if you can smell chlorine in a glass full of your water after letting it sit over night and while pouring it back and forth between glasses then it needs to be treated for chloramine. Add 1/4 Campden tablet to each 5 gallons being treated.
 
Thanks! So based on the primer:

"Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum."

Thats what i should be doing for a pale ale/ipa, correct? The baseline is 1tsp of calcium chloride, but doesnt mention gypsum. Also, since i have chlorine/chloramine, should i be adding a 1/4 of a campden per 5 gallons? Also, does anyone have a recommendation for a ph meter?
 
Thanks! So based on the primer:

"Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum."

Thats what i should be doing for a pale ale/ipa, correct? The baseline is 1tsp of calcium chloride, but doesnt mention gypsum.

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.

That is what it says but I really think you should start out with just calcium chloride. That will certainly get you a drinkable beer provided you do everything else (sauermalz, tight control of mash temperature and pH, healthy yeast pitch, proper oxegenation, proper fermentation temperataure) right. Then, when the beer is ready to drink, taste it and then taste it again but with a little gypsum added to the glass. If you find that this improves the taste then brew it again with some gypsum added to the mash water. Again I recommend that you work up gradually. Perhaps half a tsp of gypsum and half of calcium chloride. If you like this beer better then you are a sulfate lover (not everyone is) and should continue experimenting with different levels of sulfate. Remember that no one can tell you what the proper levels are (not that I'm carefully avoiding mentioning ratios as it is the absolute amounts of sulfate and chloride that determine what the beer is like) as you are tuning for your own palate.

Be sure to work up to the 1 tsp each level slowly. I predict that you will not like 'very minerally' beers as most people don't.

Also, since i have chlorine/chloramine, should i be adding a 1/4 of a campden per 5 gallons?

We don't know that you have chloramine. That's another question for the supplier: "Do you chloraminate?" If the answer is yes then you can either do the sniff test as described in #8 or use the 1/4 tablet as insurance.

Also, does anyone have a recommendation for a ph meter?

I stay away from this question because I haven't tested all the meters out there. Let's face it. You aren't going to get a good pH meter for less than several hundred dollars. You have a choice of several that are adequate for under $100 but you need to be aware that what those extra couple hundred dollars are buying you is stability. If you check calibration frequently during the brew day, e.g. before and right after each reading then you are going to be OK with an inexpensive meter. The only one I have any experience with is the Hanna pHep and I know lots of people here use them with success.
 
sorry to bring this back up. Using this calculator:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/

and plugging my numbers in based on what i posted above, my source minerals are:

27 17 3 2.03 .45 0

With this and the target profile "light colored and hoppy", the closest i can come to all green numbers in the difference section is by adding 3 grams of calcium chloride and 7.5 grams of gypsum. Based on what was said earlier, this seems like a lot of gypsum. This is for 8.7 total gallons of water. Is this what you would recommend?

also, can i add all the minerals in with the mash water or do i need add some in the mash, some in the sparge, etc?

thanks again
 
i am using calcium carbonate and gypsum. do i add these during the mash or during the boil? Also, for the calcualtor, do i base it off of the total amount of water i use, pre boil volume, or post boil volume?
 
There is still abroad the notion that the 'hoppiness' of beers is controlled by the ratio if sulfate to chloride ion concentration in the mashing liquor. 'Hoppiness' does not represent one degree of freedom. As such you cannot control it by setting one parameter (the ratio) to a particular value. The perception of hops depends on the varieties you use and how you use them (first wort, early kettle, mid kettle, late kettle, knockout, dry hop) and on other factors, including the sulfate level. Sulfate tends to make bitterness (only one aspect of hoppiness) rough, harsh and dry so in general it is a good idea to control sulfate until you are sure you like these effects, which many, but by no means all, drinkers do. This is easy to accomplish. Brew a beer with modest but equal amounts of calcium chloride and calcium sulfate (about half a tsp each in 5 gallons) and, when it is ready to drink, taste it and then taste it again with some additional gypsum added to the glass. Keep doing this as long as you think the additional gypsum leads to improvement in the beer. Use the results you obtain in this way to guide you in deciding how much gypsum to use in the actual mash liquor.

You can add all the salts to the mash water or divide them up. If you have a large enough HLT it is clearly simplest to treat all the water you are going to use and then just draw it as you need it.

If you concentrate all your salts in the mash or in the mash water (a better practice as mixing with the grain is guaranteed) the calcium ion concentration in the mash will clearly be higher than if you divided the salts between mash ans sparge. This will have an effect on mash pH which should be considered.
 
i am using calcium carbonate and gypsum. do i add these during the mash or during the boil?
Neither for the carbonate. We don't use that. The gypsum can go in any time as indicated in #13 but adding it to the boil is, IMO, anadvanced technique and you shouldn't do that unless you have a particular reason for doing so.

Also, for the calcualtor, do i base it off of the total amount of water i use, pre boil volume, or post boil volume?
The total volume of water used.
 
thanks for the info. so today i used calcuim carbonate, thinking i was using calcium chloride. total volume of water was 8.7, final volume was just a bit over 5. i ended up using 1tsp gypsum, 1/2tsp calcium carbonate. the above mentioned calculator states this will create a "highly bitter" beer. i ordered the correct calcium product, calcium chloride, and will be using the right item for my next brew!

im trying to correct an issue with the flavor of my pale ales and ipas that ive had ever since i moved. this is the first time i have tried adjusting the water. all of my pale ales and ipas have very dull hop flavor and bitterness, almost like they are stale. today i made sure i had a nice hard boil in case this was caused by DMS, and also adjusted my water, even thought it was incorrect. do you think my water could cause this effect on hops? ive made a few wheat beers and thought they tasted alright, but anything hoppy is just not good.
 
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