Is this boiling?

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evandena

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First time testing out the new Kal clone.
I had a 5500w element in the HLT and a 4500w in the boil kettle, off of a 50 amp panel. My boil kettle is a 35 gallon Bayou stainless pot.

First time trying to boil water in the BK, and I could only get it to 208 degrees with the 4500w element. I figured the element didn't have enough juice in the large pot, so I switched it to the 5500w. Same problem. The Thermapen was also reading 208, in line with the PID. Just to make sure, I took the Thermapen to the stove and put it into a hard boiling pot of water, but it only read 210. Odd that the Thermapen and PID are each off by 2 degrees, but that means I only got to 210 while in the boil kettle.

Here is a video of what it looks like when it's at 206-208 degrees. Is this really a rolling boil? Will it suffice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76zww3Z65Pc&feature=youtu.be
 
I'm on a lp setup but my hard rolling boil is much more vigorous than that. You might want to look into a heat stick or some other heat source to get it over that hump to a hard boil. I feel like it will be hard to achieve proper hot break and what not with that mediocre boil.
 
Also, what is your elevation?? I live at 8k ft so my hard rolling boil is about 200 deg F
 
Also, what is your elevation?? I live at 8k ft so my hard rolling boil is about 200 deg F

About 800 ft.

I added 1000w between switching the elements and it still didn't raise the temp a degree.
Not sure what gives.
 
About 800 ft.

I added 1000w between switching the elements and it still didn't raise the temp a degree.
Not sure what gives.

I think two things are going on. 1 - your PID or temperature sensor is measuring wrong. 2 - You aren't dumping enough energy ino the water for a good boil.

What is your incoming line voltage and what is the voltage across the element when it's on?

A 240V 5500 watt element is not 5500 watts if your line voltage or voltage at the element is low:

240V = 5500 Watts
235V = 5273 Watts
230V = 5051 Watts
225V = 4834 Watts
220V = 4622 Watts
215V = 4414 Watts
210V = 4211 Watts
205V = 4013 Watts
200V = 3819 Watts
 
My seem like a dumb question but if the pid won't let you go above 207 is it on the Celsius scale rather than Fahrenheit?
 
Just comfirned, it was in manual mode while trying last night. It's in manual mode right now, and we're giving it another shot.
Tested the voltage, its 240v at the element terminals, so everything looks good there.

At my elevation of 1,000 feet, water should boil at 210. So it looks like the Thermapen was calibrated correctly, which means the PID is correct as well.

Signs seem to be pointing to not enough power, but how is the 5500 watt element not raising it a single degree beyond what the 4500 could do?
 
Yes, but it's not reaching 210.

With the lid on, I was able to get a rolling boil to 210. Taking the lid off, it drops back to 207, and looks like the video.
Guess I need more power, or insulation maybe?

My kettle is 21.25 inches in diameter. Is there a formula to figure out how much power is required to boil water at my elevation with that amount of surface area?
 
Are you limiting the current to the element in any way?
Can you measure or estimate the current? Should be about 23A.

A few thoughts:
  • Faulty PID or SSR
    Can you bypass these temporarily to make sure you can deliver 23A @ 240V to your element?
  • Undersized wiring in the power circuit
    Check for long runs (e.g., extension cords) and/or wires that are too thin.
 
Are you limiting the current to the element in any way?
Can you measure or estimate the current? Should be about 23A.

A few thoughts:
  • Faulty PID or SSR
    Can you bypass these temporarily to make sure you can deliver 23A @ 240V to your element?
  • Undersized wiring in the power circuit
    Check for long runs (e.g., extension cords) and/or wires that are too thin.

It's pulling 22-23 amps. I don't think the problem is there.
it's looking like the rate of heat loss exceeds the power we're putting in. Crap. Maybe I'll try a partial lid, or reflectix. That will be nice and ugly.
 
First time testing out ...My boil kettle is a 35 gallon Bayou stainless pot....

Yowsers!
I didn't realize the size kettle you're using. Your heat loss may indeed exceed the heat capacity of one element.

I boil on a ceramic stove top, 6.5 gallons in 8 gal BK, and get the same problem you're seeing. Partial lid fixes it.

You have a 50A panel, so you could mount a 2nd element, just can't use both in the BK + the HLT all at the same time.
You are close to it though. If a partial lid keeps the boil rolling, it only needs a little more umph.

Just strange that both the 4500 and 5500 stall out at the same point @ 20% more energy. Are you sure something isn't regulating it? Keep the probes on the element, to see if it cycles off at any time where it should be on. How are you measuring the current, with a clamp meter?

There is no "overheat protection" built into those elements, limiting the output somehow?
 
Welp, the Reflectix got us maybe one degree? It's constant at 207.

The element is not pulsing, we have a light to verify that it is on, and it never flashes.

Now I'll look at cutting a hole in the lid.
 
You can't boil with the lid on all the time. Part-time, maybe. Partially covered, maybe.
You need a way to blow off the DMS precursors.

Do you have some idea on your total heat loss.
Are you in a 0°F garage?
Is the kettle sitting on a steel plate or some other enormous heat sink?

Here is a calculator for your element
http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/Watt_to_BTU.htm
What you're experiencing equates to 18,000 BTU/hr heat loss from the kettle being at 207°F.
 
You can't boil with the lid on all the time. Part-time, maybe. Partially covered, maybe.
You need a way to blow off the DMS precursors.

Do you have some idea on your total heat loss.
Are you in a 0°F garage?
Is the kettle sitting on a steel plate or some other enormous heat sink?

Here is a calculator for your element
http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/power/Watt_to_BTU.htm
What you're experiencing equates to 18,000 BTU/hr heat loss from the kettle being at 207°F.

In a 65 degree basement. The pots sit on a piece of cork, which sits on a 65 degree counter top.

I'm hoping to find a formula for surface area to element sizing.
 
Guess I need more power,

[ame]http://youtu.be/aCcDFzSZ8go[/ame]


Sorry could not find the original. You neglected to mention you are trying to heat 35 gallons in the beginning, makes a huge difference. I don't think there is enough insulation to boil this uncovered with only one element.
 
http://youtu.be/aCcDFzSZ8go


Sorry could not find the original. You neglected to mention you are trying to heat 35 gallons in the beginning, makes a huge difference. I don't think there is enough insulation to boil this uncovered with only one element.


I did not neglect to mention that, and I'm not trying to heat 35 gallons.
As I said, I have a 35 gallon pot, and I am simply trying to heat 7 gallons to test. I like your vid though :p
 
I did not neglect to mention that, and I'm not trying to heat 35 gallons.
As I said, I have a 35 gallon pot, and I am simply trying to heat 7 gallons to test. I like your vid though :p

You may only be trying to heat 7 gallons but the outside dimensions of your pot are still the same and the pot will still radiate as much heat as if there were 35 gallons in there.

You need to wrap some insulation around the outside of the pot. I've seen local homebrewers wrap the outside of their Sankey conversions and it makes a huge difference in heat loss.
 
You may only be trying to heat 7 gallons but the outside dimensions of your pot are still the same and the pot will still radiate as much heat as if there were 35 gallons in there.

You need to wrap some insulation around the outside of the pot. I've seen local homebrewers wrap the outside of their Sankey conversions and it makes a huge difference in heat loss.

I already wrapped Reflectix around, to no effect (at least in degrees).
 
What should I be looking at in there?
I've already confirmed 240v going to the element posts.

You've insulated the pot to reduce loss & verified that 240V is reaching the element. Do you have a way to measure the current drawn by the element? The current should be very close to 23 Amps - if you are drawing less than 19 Amps then you have a mismarked 4500 Watt element.

If you can't measure current drawn then measure the resistance across the plug. A 5500 Watt element will be about 10.5 ohms, a 4500 watt element will be about 12.8 ohms.
 
You've insulated the pot to reduce loss & verified that 240V is reaching the element. Do you have a way to measure the current drawn by the element? The current should be very close to 23 Amps - if you are drawing less than 19 Amps then you have a mismarked 4500 Watt element.

If you can't measure current drawn then measure the resistance across the plug. A 5500 Watt element will be about 10.5 ohms, a 4500 watt element will be about 12.8 ohms.

Yes, its 23 amps.
Another 4500w element is on the way.
 
How about a smaller kettle?

Did you explain why you are boiling 7 gallons in a 35 gallon kettle? I am not trying to be a smartass. Just saying. Perhaps this is just your test run? I am confused and obviously not much help.

What size batches are your ultimately trying to brew.
 
How about a smaller kettle?

Did you explain why you are boiling 7 gallons in a 35 gallon kettle? I am not trying to be a smartass. Just saying. Perhaps this is just your test run? I am confused and obviously not much help.

What size batches are your ultimately trying to brew.

I plan on brewing 15-20 gallon batches, 10 being the minimum.
I'm only trying 7 gallons because this is the first time the whole setup has been lit up.

After all the input from people in this thread, it seems like it needs more power. I have a 4500w on order, and will add that into the mix.
 
This may be a long shot, but have you tried using more than 7 gallons? 7 gallons may be below the minimum amount of water required to achieve convection and boiling throughout the entire volume of water in a kettle that large. I do 18-23 gallon batches in a 30 gallon kettle using one 5500 watt element with no problem. It is no speed demon, but it works. I have read of others using one 5500 watt element for up to 1bbl batches. Before you add another element, try it again with with 15-20 gallons.
 
Figure out a way to plug the element right into the wall. Bypass the whole control panel and see if something in your control panel is not delivering 100% power.
 
This may be a long shot, but have you tried using more than 7 gallons? 7 gallons may be below the minimum amount of water required to achieve convection and boiling through the entire volume of water in a kettle that large. I do 18-23 gallon batches in a 30 gallon kettle using one 5500 watt element with no problem. It is no speed demon, but it works. I have read of others using one 5500 watt element for up to 1bbl batches. Before you add another element, try it again with with 15-20 gallons.

actually this is not such a long shot. The inside exposed surfaces of the pot are loosing heat and filling the pot will cover the surfaces up but you would have the same water surface.
 
I could give that a try. Same results with 12 gallons, and Even if it boiled with 20 gallons, I'd like to be able to keep the minimum batch size at 10 gallons.

I don't think I can go right into the wall, but I've confirmed the PID is sending 100% to the element, and the element is getting all that power.
 
This may be a long shot, but have you tried using more than 7 gallons? 7 gallons may be below the minimum amount of water required to achieve convection and boiling throughout the entire volume of water in a kettle that large. I do 18-23 gallon batches in a 30 gallon kettle using one 5500 watt element with no problem. It is no speed demon, but it works. I have read of others using one 5500 watt element for up to 1bbl batches. Before you add another element, try it again with with 15-20 gallons.

What's the diameter of your pot?
 
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