Steeped Munich?

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beutinbrew

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Hey everyone,

I'm putting together a porter and I have some crushed Munich on hand from a friend, but I don't go AG yet nor do I have a mash tun. My main malt will be Dark LE, 6 lbs, and I'm already steeping 1.5 lbs. flaked Rye.

Can I steep 1-2 Lbs of the crushed Munich as well? I know that it falls into the category of a grain that usually must be mashed and can't be steeped do to its low Diastic power, but since A.) I am deriving most of my sugars from the LE and B.) I'm happy with a heavier beer that might result from some unconverted starches, can this work?

In other words, will the unconverted starches from the crushed Munich ruin the beer if I only steep the grain? Will the Munich lend me some flavor by steeping or is this a waste of time?

Thanks.
 
Well, Munich malt will definitely add flavor and it's worth it to use it. I think it can convert itself, so you should be ok. I'd steep it (mash it) in 1.25 quarts of water per pound at 152 or so for 45 minutes to an hour. That will give you color, flavor, and some fermentable sugars. You can certainly do this in a grain bag, and dunk the bag around like a tea bag.

Before I went AG, I used munich malt in a few recipes (especially my Dead Guy clone) and I don't remember getting any significant starch haze at all.

I'm more concerned about the flaked rye- it must be mashed, too, as you must know.
 
Thanks! That puts my mind at ease a bit more.

I'm hoping the Rye will add a nice spice / dryness not found in most Porters and play against a hint of citrus from an addition of Cascade to the classic Fuggles that will represent most of the hops (like an 80% Fuggle/20% Cascade blend)
 
I thought that Munich is the one that Jamil is always saying you can't steep, that you have to throw some two row in with it and do a mini-mash to get anything from it...
 
I hadn't thought of the idea that the Rye with uber-low conversion would benefit from the higher - though still low - Munich. Funny how life works ... :)

I'm pumped. Brewing it tonight with my Roomie ... will report back.
 
rabidgerbil said:
I thought that Munich is the one that Jamil is always saying you can't steep, that you have to throw some two row in with it and do a mini-mash to get anything from it...
that's incorrect. you can use munich for the entire grain bill. it has the power to convert itself and i think it would help out with the rye, especially if he was just going to steep anyway.

i DID use 2-row when i made my stout(it was a mini-mash batch), but i don't think you'll have a problem. if you're concerned, throw a half pound of 2-row in there.
 
The rye will be a big problem unless you do a mini-mash. Unless you use a large amount of water, the steeping water will not give you much flavor, because there is no water movement, just a big wad of mush. Flaked rye has to be mashed using 2-row. Malted rye can convert itself.

If you can steep 3 pounds of grain, you can do a mini-mash in the same container. Use Malted rye and Munich.
 
Not to say that Jamil is right on everything,
but here is one of the episodes where he says that Munich malt
can not be steeped, that it must be mashed.
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/archive/Jamil07-31-06.mp3

The one thing I am not understanding on this is, what is the true difference
between steeping and mashing? Lets see...
water? - nope
temp? - not really
malt? - nope
time? - not really

so in both methods, you take a given amount of malt, add it to a given amount
of water at a specific temp, and then hold it there for a certain amount of time

seems like the terminology should be
micro mash (steeping)
partial mash
full mash
 
No, there is a difference between steeping and a mini mash. With steeping, you're just trying to wash the pre-converted sugars out of the grains. With a mini mash, you have to take MUCH more care to use the right amounts of water, hold the temps CONSTANT for a certain amount of time, use the right types of malts to make sure you have enough enzyme active, etc. It may be close to the same procedure, but when mashing, there's much more going on in the tun than just steeping.
 
A mash is a steep, but not all steeps are mashes.

To be a mash you want to maintain a water/grist ration of about 1.2-2 qts/lb, keep the temperature between 150*F and 160*F until converted and make sure that you have sufficient enzymes.

Jamil probaply meant that Munich cannot be steeped. It can convert itself, but not much more. In your case, where you want to convert the rye as well, you will have to add about a pound of 2-row to the munich and rye mash.

Kai
 
Here's an update for ya'll (as they say in places where I'm not from, but I imagine sounds better than "all of you")

Did the brew last night, wantonly disregarding the advice to throw in some 2-row with the flaked Rye and indeed steeping the Munich with the flaked rye.

Something may have gone wrong, but before I get to that, here are my brewing notes -

The flaked rye came out of the steep EXTREMELY gelatinous ... like touching "slime" from Ghostbusters.

Munich seemed like it contributed a lot of great aroma, color and flavor.

Addition of liquid dark extract went well, cascade anf fuggle seemed to integrate nicely.

BUT ....

I had worked my recipe through the recipe calculator at Tastybrew numerous times and I followed it to a "T". I was expecting a OG of 1.052 - 1.055 and instead ... I got 1.080! :0

I have no idea where this went wrong. Steep was 4 gal. Refilled to boil 4.5 gal. Used 4 lbs total grain in steep. 6 lbs liquid extract during boil. Filled fermenter after boil to level at 5.5 gal, which is the mix from which I took my hydrometer reading. Temp at reading was 74 F

Any thoughts on why I got so high (ha ha)? I'm thinking my yeast (White labs London Ale) dies before it gets below 1.025.
 
I don't think it's possible to get that high of gravity from the recipe you posted. LME is ~35 ppg, so you're 6 lb would get to you ~1.038. Munich has a potential of ~35ppg, and flaked rye of ~36ppg. So with 1.5 lb of the rye and 2 lb of the munich, you'd have needed to archive a 185% mash efficiency to hit 1.080. My guess is that it wasn't mixed well, and you just got an extract-heavy sample.
 
Interesting. I hadn't considered that. I took my sample before pitching yeast and thinking back, I'm 99.9% positive I took my sample before I aerated the wort, which could have meant there was some heavy wort at the bottom (I use a spigot on my bucket, so the sample draws from the bottom.)

Anyone else ever heard of this? Is it a common problem?
 
Scimmia said:
I don't think it's possible to get that high of gravity from the recipe you posted. LME is ~35 ppg, so you're 6 lb would get to you ~1.038. Munich has a potential of ~35ppg, and flaked rye of ~36ppg. So with 1.5 lb of the rye and 2 lb of the munich, you'd have needed to archive a 185% mash efficiency to hit 1.080. My guess is that it wasn't mixed well, and you just got an extract-heavy sample.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if the OP's evaporation rate was high, and they had less than five gallons of final wort, then they very well could have a higher OG than what you are expecting it to be.
 
rabidgerbil said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but if the OP's evaporation rate was high, and they had less than five gallons of final wort, then they very well could have a higher OG than what you are expecting it to be.

But this is topped off, his final wort was 5.5 gal.
 
To get the best out of the flaked rye and the munich, you should definitely do a mini-mash. It's really not that much harder than just steeping.

That being said, I think the combination of rye and cascade in a porter sounds delightful. Let us know how it goes!
 
beutinbrew said:
The flaked rye came out of the steep EXTREMELY gelatinous ... like touching "slime" from Ghostbusters.

This is the starch from the rye and munic gelatinizing. You need the amylase enzymes to convert it to sugars. If you do this again, mash the rye and munich with some 2-row and you will notice that the slime will get much more liquid and sweeter tasting after just a few minutes.

Kai
 

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