My beer only tastes WORSE with time

I have brewed two beers now, both of which tasted awesome on bottling day. Unfortunately, they have never tasted that good again. There’s something wrong with my bottling process that is ruining my beer! I think the culprit is chlorine.

For my first batch, I sterilized my beers with bleach water, rinsed, and then actually baked them in the oven to “ultra-sterilize” them (don’t ask me why . . . I was too excited and I guess felt like creating extra work for myself). The beer tasted awesome on bottling day, and ever since then it tastes somewhat yeasty/medicinal. Very unpleasant. Over time, it only gets worse.

For the second batch, I figured that the bleach was the culprit on the first, and soaked brand new bottles in iodophor (sp?), no rinse, let them drain upside down on some sterilized aluminum foil until I bottled it. This batch tasted AMAZING on bottling day, and after bottling, it has developed that same foul taste as the first batch, only not as harsh, but getting worse by the day. AARGGGHHH!!!

I live in LA, which uses chloramine in the water supply. I used the tap water along with the iodophor to sanitize my bottles and everything else. Does the iodophor get rid of the chloramine?

I think that the chloramine is the problem . . . what do you think?

It’s really frustrating to get so close to making a great beer and then having it turn bad before you can drink it. I have yet to have a batch turn out, and I have one more kit of ingredients. If this one doesn’t work out, I think I’m done.

Could be the chloramine, it's suppose to cause a medicinal off flavor and it sounds like thats what you have.

Did you scrub the bottles with a bottle brush prior to sanitizing? You need to use a good cleanser and scrub the bottles first then soak them in the sanitizer.

Edit: I've had problems with the medicinal flavor as well and I am pretty certain I've tracked it down to using bleach to sanitize. My last two batches are bleach free and don't have the medicinal flavor.

I really don't have any answers for you, but I would like to add that (according to what I've found on the web), chloramine (a chlorine and ammonia compound) is an odorless, colorless, tasteless chemical. I also know that it does not boil off like regular chlorine does, which would seem to indicate that boiling does not affect the chloramine compound in any way.

That said... I'm inclined to have the amatuer opinion that chloramine should not be affecting the taste of the beer.

Being a disinfectant, it might not be good for the yeast, but you should have noticed something 'off' in the flavor at bottling time if that were the case.

just saw the most recent post from waldo. Can you show me a link that says that chloramine (and not chlorine) causes the off taste? I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I've yet to find any text that says chloramine can cause a medicinal taste.

-walker

rhinostylee said:

I have brewed two beers now, both of which tasted awesome on bottling day. Unfortunately, they have never tasted that good again. There’s something wrong with my bottling process that is ruining my beer! I think the culprit is chlorine.

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This seems to be happening to me too. My brown ale tasted ok to begin with, but now I'm down to the last bottle, and it tastes disgusting! I sanitize with VWP which is a chlorine based cleanser / sanitizer.

I posted asking a question about this, and the general concensus was that it was most likely to be my water (I have requested a water report to check the chlorine content)

Waldo said:

Could be the chloramine, it's suppose to cause a medicinal off flavor and it sounds like thats what you have.

Did you scrub the bottles with a bottle brush prior to sanitizing? You need to use a good cleanser and scrub the bottles first then soak them in the sanitizer.

Edit: I've had problems with the medicinal flavor as well and I am pretty certain I've tracked it down to using bleach to sanitize. My last two batches are bleach free and don't have the medicinal flavor.

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I did not scrub them since they were brand new bottles. What kind of cleanser is a good one that rinses well without leaving residue?

Also . . . if I can't use the tap water with iodophor to sanitize, does that mean that I have to use bottled water to santize as well as for my brew water?

IMO, I don't think it's either. I use nothing but bleach and rinse with water - our crappy municipal well water that has every 'chlora' chemical known to man in it. Same water I use to brew with (sometimes with some small adjustments). No problems.

In my early days of brewing I had one batch (an extract w/ partial grains) that was fine at bottleing time, but after a couple weeks in the bottle, I thought had a 'yeasty' taste. As time went on, it changed and got worse, but that allowed me to realize the off-taste was actually from tannins.

I went back over my notes and realized that I had steeped the grains at, what turned out to be, too high a temperature - ~175oF for 30-45 mins.! I was a relative newby didn't know! Learned that lesson!

I'm not saying that will be the case here; just sharing my experience.

Rhoobarb said:

IMO, I don't think it's either. I use nothing but bleach and rinse with water - no problems. In my early days of brewing I had one batch (an extract w/ partial grains) that was fine at bottleing time, but after a couple weeks in the bottle, I thought had a 'yeasty' taste. As time went on, it changed and got worse, but that allowed me to realize the off-taste was actually from tannins.

I went back over my notes and realized that I had steeped the grains at, what turned out to be, too high a temperature - ~175oF for 30-45 mins.! I was a relative newby didn't know! Learned that lesson!

I'm not saying that will be the case here; just sharing my experience.

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Thank you for sharing, I'm definitely open to all ideas. This is something that I did not consider but should look into. I didn't measure the temperature of the water when I steeped, my directions said to steep the grains in water that was not yet boiling, when "the bubbles first start to rise from the bottom." At what temp should I steep my grains?

rhinostylee said:

At what temp should I steep my grains?

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155F to 165F

-walker

What's your bottling procedure? Sounds like a sanitation issue at bottling to me.

BlightyBrewer said:

This seems to be happening to me too. My brown ale tasted ok to begin with, but now I'm down to the last bottle, and it tastes disgusting! I sanitize with VWP which is a chlorine based cleanser / sanitizer.

I posted asking a question about this, and the general concensus was that it was most likely to be my water (I have requested a water report to check the chlorine content)

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If that's the case, how do you get around that? If chloramine doesn't boil away, it seems the only way to have good water to sanitize with is to use bottled water, which would be expensive and cumbersome.

BeeGee said:

What's your bottling procedure? Sounds like a sanitation issue at bottling to me.

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First, I transfer the beer from the secondary into the sanitized bottling bucket, adding my primer sugar that has boiled in a cup of bottled water for a few minutes.

This last time around, I had brand new 22 oz bottles, so I simply rinsed them out and soaked them in iodophor water for about a half hour, then I let them drain upside down on sanitized aluminum foil. I started filling the bottles (after santizing my racking cane, autosiphon, tubing, and bottle filler) and capped the bottles with caps that were sanitized with iodophor.

I'm pretty careful with sanitization as well. Let me know if anything sounds fishy to you, I need to figure this out before I ruin another batch.

As Walker said - the 150 range.

Yeah, I followed that "not yet boiling, when the bubbles first start to rise, blah, blah, blah" advice when I first brewed and I did okay for my first couple of batches. But this off batch was a Porter with a lot of dark and roasted grains, which only helped make the problem worse. After that, I read more about steeping grains and started using a thermometer to hold the water at ~155oF for 30-45 mins. I raised the water temperature only after removing th grains! Big difference!

Try that next time and see if you are still experiencing the same off-flavor. There was a great article about it in a recent issue of BYO.

Sounds like your bottling procedure is irreproachable to me!

Rhoobarb said:

As Walker said - the 150 range.

Yeah, I followed that "not yet boiling, when the bubbles first start to rise, blah, blah, blah" advice when I first brewed and I did okay for my first couple of batches. But this off batch was a Porter with a lot of dark and roasted grains, which only helped make the problem worse. After that, I read more about steeping grains and started using a thermometer to hold the water at ~155oF for 30-45 mins. I raised the water temperature only after removing th grains! Big difference!

Try that next time and see if you are still experiencing the same off-flavor. There was a great article about it in a recent issue of BYO.

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Well this very well might be my culprit. Both of my brews so far have been dark beer with roasted grains . . . you may have nailed in on this one.

Out of curiousity, what is the tap water like in your area? Does it have chloramine?

Rhoobarb said:


"I did okay for my first couple of batches. But this off batch was a Porter with a lot of dark and roasted grains, which only helped make the problem worse."



How much is a lot? I just put my stout in the primary last night, and now this thread has me worried. I steeped 4 oz of black malt and 4 oz of roasted barley. I hope I didn't extract a lot of tannins.

Lounge Lizard said:

I used 4 oz of black malt and 4 oz of roasted barley. I hope I didn't extract a lot of tannins.

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(a) as long as you don't over heat your grains, you won't extract the tannins.

(b) roasted barley is normally de-husked. The husks are where the tannins live, so I don't think it's possible to extract tannins from roasted grains.

-walker

Walker said:

(a) as long as you don't over heat your grains, you won't extract the tannins.

(b) roasted barley is normally de-husked. The husks are where the tannins live, so I don't think it's possible to extract tannins from roasted grains.

-walker

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Thanks. I also went with 8 oz of Crystal malt 60L and 8 oz of flaked barley. What about them? I did take them out before hitting boiling temp, but maybe not by much.

Rhoobarb said:

As Walker said - the 150 range.

Yeah, I followed that "not yet boiling, when the bubbles first start to rise, blah, blah, blah" advice when I first brewed and I did okay for my first couple of batches. But this off batch was a Porter with a lot of dark and roasted grains, which only helped make the problem worse. After that, I read more about steeping grains and started using a thermometer to hold the water at ~155oF for 30-45 mins. I raised the water temperature only after removing th grains! Big difference!

Try that next time and see if you are still experiencing the same off-flavor. There was a great article about it in a recent issue of BYO.

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Aha, you may just have something here. My bad tasting mild used black patent grains. The grain bag I steeped with was a little too course and a number of the grains got loose into the wort, and I didn't removed them, just continued with the boil. This beer developed a terrible taste, which must have been the tannins from the " the grain escape"!

Lounge Lizard said:

Thanks. I also went with 8 oz of Crystal malt 60L and 8 oz of flaked barley. What about them? I did take them out before hitting boiling temp, but maybe not by much.

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the crystal would have had the husks. no idea about the flaked stuff. never used it and never really took a look at it at my local brew shop.

You are probably ok. I've actually WAY overheated 2.5 lbs of husked grain in one of my recent batches (forgot to turn the heat off when I hit my target temperature) and I have not detected any bad tastes in that batch.

I've seen several suggested methods for steeping grains, have used them all, and have never had any issues. These methods are:

(1) heat water to 155-ish, add grains, hold at this temp for 30-45min, remove grain

(2) add grain to cold water, slowly heat to 155-ish, hold at this temp for a short time, remove grain

(3) add grain to cold water, slowly heat, remove grain just before boiling (clearly way above 155-ish), remove grain

I think that as long as you don't boil them or hold above 180F for a LONG time, you are pretty much OK.

my $0.02

-walker

What kind of jackasses publish recipies saying to steep grains until the water starts to boil anyway???


Edited: to add that I just saw Walker's post above. Thanks again, my friend....

Ill educated ones that haven't seen this forum!

75% of the beer kits I used at the beginning of my career had those exact instructions in the kit. *shrug*

After getting into the hobby more and more and reading a lot more about it, I started using method (1) and method (2) only. I don't let my grain get above 170F (unless I do it accidentally.)

-walker

What kind of jackasses publish recipies saying to steep grains until the water starts to boil anyway???

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Same people who boil their tea or coffee. Some people like tannins.

I think as ScottT alluded to in another thread (I think it was Scott), tannin extraction will only happen above a certain temperature and above a certain pH. Otherwise decoction mashes where part of the grains and a little of the wort are removed from the main mash and boiled would result in a tannin disaster. My best guess:

As the temperature rises the grains steep and by the time the water temp hits 170 or greater the water is sufficiently acidified to prevent tannin extraction. Take that with a spoon of salt...it obviously depends quite a lot on the amount of water, quality of the water, and type of grains.

To me, tannin extraction seems most ominous when an AG'er is sparging grains with water >170F and has oversparged to the point that the pH has risen out of the 5's.

Not that there's any reason to chance it when steeping ~155F is just as easy as not.

BeeGee said:

tannin extraction will only happen above a certain temperature and above a certain pH.

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Ah! that would explain why I didn't have any issues with Pandora's Box's (that doesn't sound right when you say it) over-heated grains. Good into to have BeeGee (and ScottT).

thanks.

Way off topic, but I just wanted to congratulate BG on his 666'th post, woo!


More on topic: Can you describe the unfavorable flavor(s) in any detail?

LupusUmbrus said:

Way off topic, but I just wanted to congratulate BG on his 666'th post, woo!

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Thanks! If you look at my avatar and stare off into distance (like one of those 3-D drawings) Calvin will grow horns and sprout a tail!

Edit...dang, I ruined it!

Lounge Lizard said:

What kind of jackasses publish recipies saying to steep grains until the water starts to boil anyway???


Edited: to add that I just saw Walker's post above. Thanks again, my friend....

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Charlie P. (TCJOHB) has a few recipes where he actually brings the steeped grains TO a boil..

shrug

Chloramines, like chlorine, are toxic to fish and amphibians at levels used for drinking water. Unlike chlorine, chloramines do not rapidly dissipate on standing. Neither do they dissipate by boiling. Fish owners must neutralize or remove chloramines from water used in aquariums or ponds. Treatment products are readily available at aquarium supply stores. Chloramines react with certain types of rubber hoses and gaskets, such as those on washing machines and hot water heaters. Black or greasy particles may appear as these materials degrade. Replacement materials are commonly available at hardware and plumber supply stores.
How about campden tablets.....

Now heres a dumb thought.....Has anyone considered buying this from a pet store or looking into it? I know its cheap...$3-5 a bottle. Just dont know how it would effect the wort. Its basically the stuff you add 1 tsp per 5 gallons for water conditioning the tank. My bottle shows not to be used on fish for human consumption. I dont think it will work, but if someone else is an expert.........check it out.

Campden tablets (used for wine) neutralize chloromines. You have to be careful to not use too much, it's Potassium Metabisulfate if I remember right and your yeast wont do jack-diddly if you go overboard with it.

http://www.austinhomebrew.com/produ...d=810&osCsid=1ebecd255f3bd777ca96df334c498ef8

While AHS's page doesn't mention it, a number of other articles about Chlorine and Chloromine online do.

From Howtobrew.com

If the water smells bad, many odors (including chlorine) can be removed by boiling. Some city water supplies use a chemical called chloramine instead of chlorine to kill bacteria. Chloramine cannot be removed by boiling and will give a medicinal taste to beer. Chloramine can be removed by running the water through an activated-charcoal filter, or by adding a campden tablet (potassium metabisulfite). Charcoal filters are a good way to remove most odors and bad tastes due to dissolved gases and organic substances. These filters are relatively inexpensive and can be attached inline to the faucet or spigot. Campden tablets are used in winemaking and should be available at your homebrew supply shop. One tablet will treat 20 gallons, so use only a quarter or half of the tablet to help it dissolve. Another alternative is to use bottled water from the grocery store.

i guess I should go back and re-read palmer's book. i haven't really used it for much in a long while. The curious side of me still wants to understand how an odorless, tasteless chemical can cause a medicinal flavor. Can somebody help me out there?

Also, I think the effects of campden are gone after a few days, so the yeast would be OK after that time. (I think.)

-walker

Mindflux said:

From Howtobrew.com

If the water smells bad, many odors (including chlorine) can be removed by boiling. Some city water supplies use a chemical called chloramine instead of chlorine to kill bacteria. Chloramine cannot be removed by boiling and will give a medicinal taste to beer. Chloramine can be removed by running the water through an activated-charcoal filter, or by adding a campden tablet (potassium metabisulfite). Charcoal filters are a good way to remove most odors and bad tastes due to dissolved gases and organic substances. These filters are relatively inexpensive and can be attached inline to the faucet or spigot. Campden tablets are used in winemaking and should be available at your homebrew supply shop. One tablet will treat 20 gallons, so use only a quarter or half of the tablet to help it dissolve. Another alternative is to use bottled water from the grocery store.

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My next question is this . . . I already use bottled water in the beer itself, but have been using tap water to rinse stuff. Now I know not to do that, but . . . how can I sanitize everything with bottled water? That means I'd have to buy 5 gallons of water for my beer and then at least another 7.5 gallons of water to wash and sanitize my equipment. That's like $15 just on water alone!

Edit: Oops... didn't see the above post,

Posted by Walker

just saw the most recent post from waldo. Can you show me a link that says that chloramine (and not chlorine) causes the off taste? I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I've yet to find any text that says chloramine can cause a medicinal taste.

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From How To Brew

Some city water supplies use a chemical called chloramine instead of chlorine to kill bacteria. Chloramine cannot be removed by boiling and will give a medicinal taste to beer. Chloramine can be removed by running the water through an activated-charcoal filter, or by adding a campden tablet (potassium metabisulfite).

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Yes, we have chloramine in our water. I still use it to rinse with. No problems there.

Can't recall the exact grain amount; the recipe isn't in front of me, but it was probably close to 8 oz. each of roasted barley and black patent. Plus, we have water pH off the charts. Add all that up with a 180oF+ steeping water and...

Before I went AG, I ended up watching the steeping temp. and using a small amount (1/4-1/3 cup) of DME in my steeping water. I had read that BYO article I allued to earlier and it stated that doing so will lower the pH of the steeping water. No more worries about tannin extraction.

I really don't think there would be enough chloramine residue left in your bottles to cause a problem. I do know that sanitizers are not cleansers, you need to use a good cleanser to scrub your bottles first, I use One Step no rinse cleanser and then follow up with Iodophor. Its still possible that you are getting an infection, new bottles can be very dirty inside.

Allright, so right now it seems that my first batch was bad because of bleach residue, and my second because I didn't properly clean my bottles.

If I understand you correctly, tap water with chloramine should be okay to rinse with, and should not substantially alter the beer's flavor. Using tap water mixed with iodophor to sanitize should not harm my beer, either.

What is your opinion of bottle washers, the ones that connect to your faucet? Do you use them? Using a brush seems like a ton of work.

Also, my tap water tastes really bad. Does your taste bad as well?

My tap water smells like an Olympic sized swimming pool, with a couple of jock straps tossed in, I use it to clean and sanitize. I can't remember where I read it but it was from one of the sanitizer companies, they said that you must scrub the surface of the item being sanitized with a good cleanser and then sanitize it, the scrubbing actually breaks up any colonies of baddies and then the sanitizer kills them.

It is a bit of work but not nearly as bad as mowing the lawn.

The bleach shouldn't really have been a problem either, in my case I think I was mixing it to strong and letting it set in my carboys and buckets to long and then not getting it rinsed as well as I thought I did.

Waldo said:

Its still possible that you are getting an infection, new bottles can be very dirty inside.

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Could be . . . but does an infection result in medicinal tastes? Also, if it was infected, would all of the bottles of beer taste universally nasty instead of on a bottle by bottle basis?

Waldo said:

My tap water smells like an Olympic sized swimming pool, with a couple of jock straps tossed in.

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Add a few doses of a$$ and that's my water!

One other thing . . . I generally fill up my buckets and stuff from my bathtub. In the morning when I first turn on my faucet, the water that comes out is brown. So obviously I let the water run for a while before I use it. Could it be nasty pipes that are contaminating my water?

Waldo said:

The bleach shouldn't really have been a problem either, in my case I think I was mixing it to strong and letting it set in my carboys and buckets to long and then not getting it rinsed as well as I thought I did.

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I think this is what ruined my first batch, I soaked my equipment for days, out of laziness and the idea that everything would be "extra sanitized."