New member: question before I dive into the brew

Hola folks, first time poster here. I figured I'd ask this in the beginner section, because I am 100% new to this. I've got a copy of How To Brew that I'm slowly working my way through, but I realized I've got a really basic question...

Is it unwise to attempt an all-grain or partial-mash brew for the first time out? Everything I read seems to assume your first batch will be from an extract kit, but I haven't read anything that explicitly says "No, you fool! All-grain is much too hard for a n00b!" Though it seems like that could be the case. Or is it more a case of extract beer being easier to brew with starter equipment?

For reference, I don't have any gear yet. Rather, my good friend and future brew buddy has very generous parents who will most likely be getting him a serious all-grain setup from Synergy this xmas. Should we still start with an extract batch or bravely forge ahead? The plan would be to pick a simple recipe to start with either way, ideally single fermentation, nothing weird.

Some people have brewed all grain their first time and lived to tell about it. The advantage of starting simpler is there are fewer places to go wrong. There's even a case to be made for doing a canned kit the first time just so you can focus on sanitation and temp controls (but I didn't do that).

It's easy to underestimate how a lot of the apparently simple steps in brewing can go wrong in practice.

All grain ingredients tend to be cheaper and assuming you have the gear, I say why not. Many people brew extract exclusively but I think most go to AG at some point, so why not right away. I think the reason people start with extract is so they can focus on the process and not get overwhelmed by the details. The turning point for me came when I realized that I only saved about 30 minutes when brewing an extract w/ steeping grains as apposed to AG. I know one guy who started with AG and did just fine. Looking back, I also would have saved money on gear if I dove in and just bought AG equipment. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

If you have, or have access to, the equipment you need for AG then I say go for it. The reason most people start with extract is the cost of a good AG setup. Just make sure you do plenty of research and have a plan prior to brew day.

I would advise you to begin with and extract kit or recipe. Mostly because it would probably get you brewing sooner rather than later. Which means you will have homebrew sooner rather than later.

Having said that, there is no reason why you couldn't jump directly into All-Grain (AG) brewing. Equipment is typically the biggest initial barrier. Extract batches are easily completed right on your stove-top. In fact, AG brewing can be done directly on your stove-top. Here is a thread that will help you walk through it. Just do plenty of research before you dive in. Enjoy!

thanks guys! in that case we'll probably go all-grain and just learn the whole process, warts and all. living in a tiny Los Angeles apartment (no yard, barely any kitchen counters) I don't really have the space to do a homebrew here anyway. my friend has a loft with a spare room that he plans to devote fully to brewing. We can't brew until he has a break from law school anyway, so I figure if he'll be supplying the majority of the gear, I should do my part and read and research as much as I can to hopefully bring some understanding to the table. i definitely appreciate all the advice!

While I'm here: any particular styles make for a good, uncomplicated starter brew? My first instinct was "oh, I'll brew a pilsner. that's a simple beer." And then I read up on lager brewing and the difficulty in pulling it off and I got scared, haha. I assume some kind of basic ale style might be a better start?

Pilsners and light lagers and going to be hard because of temp control, yeast pitch rates, etc. Because of their light body and flavor they don't give you any room to "hide" any imperfections in your brew.

If I were getting a friend into brewing, I would recommend starting with an extract batch so you can focus on:
- Sanitization
- Proper temp control
- Proper yeast pitch rate


But, everybody learns and attacks thing differently. Just my two cents.

I only did about half a dozen extract batches before going AG. After much anxiety over making the transition, I found that it's not really a big deal. Just count on low efficiency (60-65%) if you're using pre-crushed grains from one of the online suppliers.

That being said, sometimes you can get a deal where you get a starter equipment kit and an ingredient kit as a combo for a reduced price. If you can find one of those, I'd jump on it. You'll still be using everything you get in the equipment kit for your AG brews and you'll get a cheap(er) batch of homebrew to enjoy while you finish collecting the rest of your gear.

First off, go all-grain. It's science, but not rocket science.

And I would strongly suggest brewing an ale. As you have already learned, lagers require a bit more equipment/knowledge.

Ishouldbeking said:

While I'm here: any particular styles make for a good, uncomplicated starter brew? My first instinct was "oh, I'll brew a pilsner. that's a simple beer." And then I read up on lager brewing and the difficulty in pulling it off and I got scared, haha. I assume some kind of basic ale style might be a better start?

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There are probably many schools of thought as to what beer you should start with. First and foremost, brew something you want to drink. An American Pale Ale or an IPA might be a good place to start, because you will have an easier time hiding any mistakes you make behind those hops. If you want to get your pipeline flowing faster (you do, because it becomes a lot easier to let a fermenter sit undisturbed when you are drinking your own beer), consider a faster maturing beer like a Mild or a 60/-. As a bonus for your law student friend, you can drink a few Milds while doing a case brief and still feel fine for class the next morning. Trust me, law school classes when you are still drunk from the night before are the worst.

Also, if you do decide to go AG, I'd start with something red or amber. Depending on your water profile, darker or lighter beers might be problematic, so if you stick with something in the middle, you'll probably be in the ballpark no matter where your water lies on the spectrum.

lots of helpful advice, thanks! since i've got you all here, I keep hearing about water profiles... couldn't we just use bottled water? there's a grocery store here that sells quality bottled water for hardly anything. or is there an advantage to using tap water? generally speaking i don't use Los Angeles tap water for anything besides showering, haha.

Tap water is cheaper and if filtered, will probably be your best bet. Distilled water has no buffering capacity, and bottled mineral or spring water could possibly be tap water from another city.

General rule of thumb: If it tastes good from the tap it should be OK to use. Beer is 90% water, so this is an important ingredient.

You can play around with the water composition if you like, but that's yet another variable to get into and worry about. From what I remember about being in SoCal, the tap water wasn't very good (tasting) but that is your call to make.

Bottled/Spring water should fine. Distilled water/RO water (from what I've read) doesn't have the necessary minerals in it that are needed to aid in the starch conversion. I will gladly stand corrected on this if somebody has different information that they are confident about, though.

interesting, i hadn't considered that water could be 'too pure' to brew, though I suppose that makes sense. more proof I need to keep reading!

You mentioned that you have a small apartment with no room for brewing but your friend is dedicating a whole room for brewing. If you are going to go all grain you will probably need to boil outdoors. Unless you go electric but then you would need some type of ventilation system which could probably be as simple as a fan in a window.

BWN said:

You mentioned that you have a small apartment with no room for brewing but your friend is dedicating a whole room for brewing. If you are going to go all grain you will probably need to boil outdoors. Unless you go electric but then you would need some type of ventilation system which could probably be as simple as a fan in a window.

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yikes, really? the room itself is a part of a high-ceilinged loft with concrete floors. I guess I hadn't put a whole lot of thought into ventilation beyond the fact that we'd probably want to ventilate for funky smells. is the main issue due to using propane heat indoors?

If you are doing all grain you will need an outdoor burner like the ones used for deep frying turkeys. It is not safe to use one of those inside. I meant you would need ventilation for the amount of moisture created if you would be boiling inside using an electric system. I guess if you had really good ventilation you could use propane indoors but I would still be worried about it being a fire hazard.

Mentioned it to my buddy, he doesn't seem worried. And he's a much handier type than I am (thank God). His place has thick concrete floors, 14 foot ceilings, and gigantic windows which open out of the 12th story from a big building in downtown LA. His thinking was to get an industrial sized fan going, open up a few windows and do the actual brew day in his living room. Then we move the gear into the extra room for fermentation.

I appreciate all the insight you guys are giving me, though. It's amazing how many seemingly little considerations need to be carefully weighed before jumping into brewing! I'm still trying to wrap my head around all the gear we'll need beside the brewstands, burners, and pots themselves.

i would go all grain, but i would only did if i had an experienced brewer with me to walk me through some of the steps. join a homebrew club and brew with someone else before you brew yourself. you owe it to yourself to read the book through and watch youtube videos and research the thousands of posts here on HBT. You will only benefit from it all.

i brewed 3 partial mashes before i dropped $2k+ on my setup seen in my signature.

cheers

Unless he owns the building, your friend might want to check on whether he is even allowed to use propane indoors (I'm guessing, no).

I would go all grain if I were you, that's where you'll end up anyway so why not learn it now. A friend and myself did the same thing about this time last year. Grabbed palmers book, bought a cooler, kettle and the rest of the stuff and brewed a triple decoction bock from a recipe we made ourselves. It was one of the best beers we had ever drank. So don't worry, everything you need to know is in that book or accessible on the Internet. We have done about 12 brews since then, all grain, and haven't had a problem yet, knock on wood. To this day we have never done an extract brew.

I would be concerned with brewing indoors though. Alot of fumes and alot of heat.

McGarnigle said:

Unless he owns the building, your friend might want to check on whether he is even allowed to use propane indoors (I'm guessing, no).

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Yeah, you're probably right. He owns his loft, but not the building. I'm positive he's not allowed to use propane indoors, but I doubt that would stop him if he felt like it.

Fortunately, if we reeeaaaaally had to, we could probably brew on his rooftop. We've done plenty of bbq'ing up there, and it's actually pretty nice on the top story of a 13 building in downtown LA.

Is it problematic to move the fermenting bucket after you finish the cook portion of brew day? I figure we could just brew outside then bring the fermenting bucket down to his spare room, right?

Ishouldbeking said:

Yeah, you're probably right. He owns his loft, but not the building. I'm positive he's not allowed to use propane indoors, but I doubt that would stop him if he felt like it.

Fortunately, if we reeeaaaaally had to, we could probably brew on his rooftop. We've done plenty of bbq'ing up there, and it's actually pretty nice on the top story of a 13 building in downtown LA.

Is it problematic to move the fermenting bucket after you finish the cook portion of brew day? I figure we could just brew outside then bring the fermenting bucket down to his spare room, right?

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Not only is it not problematic, it sounds like alot of fun. Plus bringing it to the spare room will help oxygenate it (a little ). If you BBQ up there you should brew there. I wish I still lived in LA, I'd join you and make a party of brewday's.

Yea, don't do it inside. That could be some very exspensive beer. The roof top would be a better idea, with something planned for fire safety. It's good that you're planning early, but make you plan for safety.

Good Luck.

Plus one for starting all grain. But remeber to KISS (keep it simple stupidy). Start with a simple recipe (Pale Ale), single infusion, dry yeast and focus on the details (SANITATION SANITATION SANITATION).
A simple recipe will be easier to trouble shoot (Pale Ales use most if not all just Pale 2-row or 6-row malt). A single infusion as well (one temp to monitor and easier to change afterwards). If you like go crazy with the hops (but use just one type for bittering and one for aroma/flavor, again easier to trouble shoot). And use a clean dry yeast (my take Fermentis US-05) since it's easier to handle and it will produce less off flavors if fermented at higher temperatures (again, EASIER TO TROUBLE SHOOT).
And one last advice: SANITATION SANITATION SANITATION.

If you've got 14 ft ceilings, concrete floors, plenty of windows, and a big fan, I don't see much of a problem using a turkey fryer inside (for beer, not oil). I brew in my garage all winter with just the door cracked open a couple of inches and a fan going.

One thing you're going to want to figure out, though, is the running water situation. You're going to need an immersion chiller, CFC, or plate chiller to get your wort cooled down. All of those require plenty of cool water and somewhere to drain.

I gotta say, I'm amazed at how many responses I'm getting here. As a member of several other forums (mostly musician/gear related), this is by far the most helpful response I've gotten as a newbie, and I'm very grateful for all the help! I'm looking forward to staying active here as we progress as fledgling brewers!

Ishouldbeking said:

I gotta say, I'm amazed at how many responses I'm getting here. As a member of several other forums (mostly musician/gear related), this is by far the most helpful response I've gotten as a newbie, and I'm very grateful for all the help! I'm looking forward to staying active here as we progress as fledgling brewers!

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I think I may be speaking for everyone here when I say that the most passionate hobbies are the ones that involve alcohol

For the record, I emailed the manufacturer of the brew system we'll most likely be using (Synergy), and they said it could be used indoors (especially in our situation with high ceilings, concrete floors, and gigantic windows) but the key is proper ventilation. Meaning, one fan blowing venting out, one fan sucking fresh air in. My friend is working on a design for a mobile ventilation station to be mounted on a dolly for easy mobility, and for safety sake we'll also get a quality CO detector. In all likelihood his Housing Authority would probably give him a harder time over trying to brew on the roof, so there you have it.

I think the housing authority is going to give you a bad time anyway... better read that contract. It one thing to brew in the garage of your home, it's another thing to do it on the 12th floor of a building.

Sorry to be a buzz kill but I think you need to check into the building and what your friend signed off on. Is there a basement or yard?

lgilmore said:

I think the housing authority is going to give you a bad time anyway... better read that contract. It one thing to brew in the garage of your home, it's another thing to do it on the 12th floor of a building.

Sorry to be a buzz kill but I think you need to check into the building and what your friend signed off on. Is there a basement or yard?

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no basement, no yard. it's a high-rise (I guess, though its only 12 stories) in downtown LA. I mean, these things are artist's lofts. pretty much the embodiment of the live-in workspace. many are just unfinished concrete cubes; his has been completely rebuilt to resemble a very nice apartment. no one would pry into his business if he were making sculptures with a blowtorch, so I doubt they'd bother him over a homebrew... especially one they don't know about.

but i do generally appreciate the concern. I was just as concerned when it dawned on me (after you guys mentioned it), but he's not worried at all. he's owned the place for years, is good friends with all his neighbors, etc.

I'm going to add a +1 that thinks that brewing with propane indoors is an incredibly bad idea. Not to rain on your parade, but even being really careful this could go badly in way too many ways.

Again read anything you have on the place... You're using a shared place (12 floors)there has to be a schedule of prohibited activities. The thing to keep in mind, if there is and you ignore it and something bad happens, you may not be covered by your own insurance, which means all your neighbors insurance companies will hound you to your grave for any recovery. As I posted earlier, these could be very expensive beer.

lgilmore said:

Again read anything you have on the place... You're using a shared place (12 floors)there has to be a schedule of prohibited activities. The thing to keep in mind, if there is and you ignore it and something bad happens, you may not be covered by your own insurance, which means all your neighbors insurance companies will hound you to your grave for any recovery. As I posted earlier, these could be very expensive beer.

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Good call. We'll definitely be researching much deeper into both what is allowed and what is safe. Thanks guys.

On the topic of starting AG, go for it! With a little research, some good directions, and an idea of what you are doing and why, there isn't anything complicated about AG. I started AG (and have done 4-5 since) and did an extract batch with a buddy who brews extract only. Extract is far easier, but AG is so much more rewarding.

If you are the type that really likes to work to improve your work, and have the most possible control over what comes out, then AG is for you. I have heard it compared to cooking, and think this is very valid. Extract brewing is like using packaged noodles and Ragu to make spaghetti. All Grain is like making noodles from scratch and making sauce out of stewed tomatoes, peppers, onions, and spices. You get to decide just exactly what you do.

I think if you go AG, you will never look back. Happy brewing! (And try to find someplace outside to do it. Building fires are not something to mess around with.)

I started with AG as well (did 1 Mr Beer kit which failed) then made my own equipment and have been brewing all grain ever since. As for propane indoors? I use propane indoors in my basement. Have a fire extinguisher and a CO detector and fresh air in and exhaust fans. The big issue is heat, my little brew room gets pretty warm but now that the fresh air in is 28F the warmth feels good. However, I have low pressure burners rated for interior use, have notified my insurance company and own a house in the woods. So with good ventilation and indoor rated equipment (if the maker says it is then cool) you will be fine. Building restrictions need to be checked ...

But I say go for it. Any pale ale would be a good first brew, something that will be easy to mash and boil. Single Infusion, and fast fermentation. Safale US-05 is a good yeast and is easy and fast. Are you going to bottle or keg? If bottling read the Sticky:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/bottling-tips-homebrewer-94812/
kegging read :https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/sticky-kegging-faqs-43347/

Good Luck and Happy Brewing!!!

BrewerinBR said:

I started with AG as well (did 1 Mr Beer kit which failed) then made my own equipment and have been brewing all grain ever since. As for propane indoors? I use propane indoors in my basement. Have a fire extinguisher and a CO detector and fresh air in and exhaust fans. The big issue is heat, my little brew room gets pretty warm but now that the fresh air in is 28F the warmth feels good. However, I have low pressure burners rated for interior use, have notified my insurance company and own a house in the woods. So with good ventilation and indoor rated equipment (if the maker says it is then cool) you will be fine. Building restrictions need to be checked ...

But I say go for it. Any pale ale would be a good first brew, something that will be easy to mash and boil. Single Infusion, and fast fermentation. Safale US-05 is a good yeast and is easy and fast. Are you going to bottle or keg? If bottling read the Sticky:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/bottling-tips-homebrewer-94812/
kegging read :https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/sticky-kegging-faqs-43347/

Good Luck and Happy Brewing!!!

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thanks! bottle vs keg is one of my next subjects to research. I love the idea of kegging (if only to get my beer faster!), but I still need to look into it more. my friend has said that if we take a liking to brewing he'll likely install a tap system into the house. i guess my major concern, being that I don't live there, is that I wouldn't necessarily want all our beer in one location... i wanna take some of it home with me! do some folks keg part of a batch and bottle the rest?

All right, guys. All your concern has paid off! I've officially put the fear into my buddy, and once we realized the crazy high BTU's these propane burners are putting out there was a definite "whoa" moment.

So... brewing electric, is that doable in a well ventilated indoor setup?

Ishouldbeking said:

. . . i guess my major concern, being that I don't live there, is that I wouldn't necessarily want all our beer in one location... i wanna take some of it home with me! do some folks keg part of a batch and bottle the rest?

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That's not a problem at all. Growlers are cheap, or you can bottle straight from the keg. Do a search for the "Biermuncher bottle filler." It's about $10 worth of parts from your LHBS and you can fill a sixxer in roughly 10 minutes.