Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

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I did a side by side tasting of my Old World Pious vs Westmalle 8 and Rochefort 10. I had brewed the Old World on March 30 and then bottled in July, so still a little young in the bottle. So it should continue to improve.

Westmalle 8 was the least favorite. I thought it had almost a root beer float type of flavor.

Rochefort 10 had more complexity and was unanimous 2nd choice. This is a really good beer.

But hands down, no contest, the Old World kicked ass! Far greater complexity, better dark fruit and what I would describe as the esters of a great yeast.

Thank you for a great recipe. This is the third time I've made this, twice with new world and this time with old world. I think the new world is almost too heavy and complex. I'm a fan of the old world, even if it is more work.
 
Planning to brew the traditional next week. I have the following syrups available.

3 lbs D2
1 Lbs CSI D180
1 Lbs CSI D90
1 Lbs CSI D45

Any thoughts on if I should just use the 3 lbs D2 or possibly mix and match?
 
zazbnf said:
Planning to brew the traditional next week. I have the following syrups available.

3 lbs D2
1 Lbs CSI D180
1 Lbs CSI D90
1 Lbs CSI D45

Any thoughts on if I should just use the 3 lbs D2 or possibly mix and match?
Click to expand...

I used 1 lb each of the csi's. Just like you have available. My beer is very good. Not sure what a different combo would bring to the table. Saying that, if I made this again I would do all dark syrup. I don't think you can go wrong here.
 
saq said:
I just started drinking the latest batch yesterday and its ridiculously good! My FG only got down to 1.015 so its a bit sweeter than I typically like but it comes out and works really well. Its got a dark chocolate syrup, black cherry and dusted cocoa thing going on thats really awesome.
Click to expand...

Do you think the heavy chocolate notes would be from the heavy amounts of d-90? How would you expect switching to two lbs of d-180 and one lb of d-90 would change the flavor of that batch? I am thinking of doing that if you think it would be an improvement. Such an expensive batch I am double reading this gigantic thread and still unsure :p
 
Oophaga said:
Do you think the heavy chocolate notes would be from the heavy amounts of d-90? How would you expect switching to two lbs of d-180 and one lb of d-90 would change the flavor of that batch? I am thinking of doing that if you think it would be an improvement. Such an expensive batch I am double reading this gigantic thread and still unsure :p
Click to expand...

Oophaga, we've been experimenting with a truncated recipe that has been returning good results for us. We've been using only 2 lbs D-180/ 5 gallon batch. You'll get the SRM, mouthfeel, and some rather intense flavors from D-180, (fresh ground coffee, cocoa powder, & caramel). We've patterned after saq's Traditional Old World for this one. Our recipe using this method in our latest brew-trial is posted out on our site. candisyrup
 
The heavy chocolate, black cherry and dusted cocoa thing has got to be from the D180, that stuff is so intense and rich.
 
saq said:
The heavy chocolate, black cherry and dusted cocoa thing has got to be from the D180, that stuff is so intense and rich.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's right on the mark. Denny terms it "coffee" notes. Others have stated it has light cocoa flavors. I would say it has a little of both.

D-90 leans a little more toward dark caramel and some subtle dried stone fruit.
 
Brewed a slight modification of the New World yesterday. This is my 3rd time around, and I'm experimenting with the fermentation profile (keeping O2 levels and pitch rate constant):

1st attempt - Followed recipe, pitched at 65F, free rise to 76F in 24hrs, then external heat to 82F, hold until FG. This resulted in too much solvent/hot alcohol character, but also the heavy carmelized/burnt banana flavor reminiscent of the real thing.

2nd attempt - Pitched at 65F, held at 65F for 4 days, slowly increased over 1 week to 75F, hold until FG. This resulted in no solvent/hot alcohol character, but the beer was muted and somewhat lifeless. Some phenolics but little in the way of esters.

Current attempt - Pitched at 65F, free rise to 72F in about 18 hours. Hold at 72F for 48hrs, then increase to 78F over 5 days. Here, I'm hoping to split the difference and get the best of both worlds - the right ester/phenolic character without the solventy notes.
 
Thank you all for the quick replies! As of now I am leaning towards a new world recipe as decoctions have me a little bit nervous. Otherwise I am interested in the CSI recipe, but like I said I am nervous about doing my first decoction on such a costly recipe. Time will tell, going to be ordering a stir plate first before I even attempt anything to achieve proper pitching rates.

Thanks again!
 
Used too much sparge water and didn't boil off enough so ended up with closer to 6 gallons than 5 and OG is 1.084. Still to style but not the same as Westy 12. I'm also following Jamil's fermentation schedule and kept it at 68F for the first three days and am only allowing to to get to 72F for the rest of primary. Smells incredible right now!
 
Question regarding adding the Candi Sugar/Syrup:

I decided to not add it in the boil as to make the yeast eat all the hard sugars before getting their desert. I am going to add them at about day 4, but I want to know which way would be the best

1. Just dump the sugar in. Hopefully it does not make it to the bottom and sit there and not ferment? Will the sugar distribute all the way through out or will it sink like a rock and plop itslef on the bottom?

2. Siphon off pint of beer into a sanitized sauce pan . Mix all together and add back to fermenter (I'm assuming this would greatly increase my chances of infection!)

3. Mix sugars into some DME + water (pale..two row DME..say 1.030) bring to a boil, cool, then add to fermenter?


Thoughts?
 
There's really no need to not add the syrup during the boil, especially with Westmalle yeast...that's how the monks do it and it's just not a problem with this recipe with 10-15% syrup rate. In fact it's rarely something to be worried about...maybe if you're doing an extreme beer and have >30% glucose adjuncts and you're seeing poor fermentation despite sufficient nutrients and oxygenation.

I'd recommend heating the syrup up in the microwave and slowly adding it to the fermentor during active fermentation. You could remove some beer and mix the syrup in that if you like...it's not going to greatly increase your chances of a serious infection if you keep everything clean and you have a healthy active fermentation.
 
Just add it to the boil. I have began to even add the third addition during racking directly to the boil. I just don't want to screw with the beer that much because I'm lazy. Plus if you just pour it in the fermentor it will sink to the bottom. Even if you rack on top of the beer you have a good chance of the syrup not mixing well and it sitting at the bottom. I've had to use a wine degasser to stir the bottom of my fermentors a number of times.
 
Whenever I have added candi syrup to the fermenter I end up finding some in the bottom at the end of fermentation. Add it after flameout so it gets dissolved.
 
I guess in the future I'll add at flame out.

What if I pulled half a gallon and gently heated it to ~165 (boiling point of ethyl alcohol is 172) and mixed in the two pounds, cool and added that back in?
 
Thanks for the recipe! Just brewed this last Sunday. I racked on a yeast cake of 3787 from a Tripel I made a couple weeks ago and it is already down to 1.018 (OG 1.098) in 5 days. Hopefully, I should be down around 1.012 in a couple more days.

One question I have on the cold conditioning in the secondary - do you slowly ramp down the temperature to 50, or just quickly crash it?
 
rjwhite41 said:
I had a minute so I ran to my office. Here's the write up and I believe there are some videos on youtube as well.
Click to expand...

rjwhite41 - Do you have a good St. Bernardus recipe?

Also - I plan on doing either the new world or traditional soon but want to do a single infusion vs. decoction.

Is 148 to 150 the optimal temperature for the single infusion? AND which version works best without decoction? No competitions for me, just consumption; so dead-on flavor and style while important, is not rquired. I like the traditional due to the simple recipe.
 
saq - any updates on the traditional and new world recipes? I've seen several variations in this thread and others. What has changed from page one for both recipes?
 
I would so much like to try this one out, but I think that the laagering stage is impossible for me because I have no spare fridge or anything that would fullfil the same role. My question is what kind of beer would i get without the cold-conditioning phase? Will it be a totally different beer that is way too estery and not so clear,or would i be just fine? I think that i could easily reach the primary temperature, so that would not be a problem.
 
The temperatures outside won't be stable, they are ambient. For example this morning it was around 37 F outside, whereas now it is over 57 F. Pretty soon, I'd say in two weeks, the night temperature will be under 0 C, which means that the beer can actually freeze.
 
From what I understand, this is not a real lagering process, it's merely aging the beer at 50 degrees (F) or so. Someone chime-in if I'm wrong.
 
Nyrkki, I'm in the same boat as you. Honestly I think it'll be just fine without the "lagering" stage. Maybe not come out exactly like a Westy 12 but still an excellent beer.

Jamil's BDSA from Brewing Classic Styles that has won numerous awards doesn't include the lagering step. His beer that won the National Homebrew Competition was something like 4 years old so I'm just going to bulk age it for a couple of months and then bottle it and let it sit for another few before I even try it.

Eric
 
I was also thinking about ageing it for a longer time to compensate the lack of cold conditioning. Actually I'm not even sure what the cold conditioning will bring to this beer, other than clarity.

I have some westy bottles in my closet that will stay there at least to 2014. I bought them a few years back.
 
I've mentioned this before, but after a great primary fermentation temp, I was only able to get it down to 68-70 for the secondary. I left it in there for 5 weeks. I'm not sure how this compares to one that was kept at 50 for that time period. What I do know is that this is one delicious beer. There is probably some benefits to following the recommended fermentation schedule, but not enough to stop you from brewing. Don't worry about it. Just go for it and enjoy.
 
BuffaloBeer1 - how did you mash, single infusion or decoction? If single infusion, what temperature?
 
Nyrkki said:
I would so much like to try this one out, but I think that the laagering stage is impossible for me because I have no spare fridge or anything that would fullfil the same role. My question is what kind of beer would i get without the cold-conditioning phase? Will it be a totally different beer that is way too estery and not so clear,or would i be just fine? I think that i could easily reach the primary temperature, so that would not be a problem.
Click to expand...

We have found that 50-55F does develop slight fruit esters in addition to the benefit of precipitation. Westmalle 530/3787 is active at 50F but a little less animated :).

If you have a basement or a cellar or even a corner room with an outside wall facing north you might be able to get the temp down to 60F or below. It may not be ideal for precipitation but it will help in flavor development. 1-2 years in the bottle will also help in clarification.

BTW, we just sent a good sized pallet of our syrups/soft sugars through Finland to the Russian Federation.
 
CSI - what temperature do you recommend for a single infusion mash? Also, would you go with the traditional or new world with single infusion?

Any other advice for the mash?
 
ultravista said:
BuffaloBeer1 - how did you mash, single infusion or decoction? If single infusion, what temperature?
Click to expand...

I did the New World Recipe. Mashed at 150 for 90 min. using single infusion and batch sparging. I had 5.5 gallons at 1.094 with a FG of 1.014. Approx. 10.7 % abv. I pitched it onto a yeast cake of WYeast 3787 (Trappist High Gravity) that I used for a Dubbel. I also made sure to use the yeast nutrient. For what it's worth, I did use CSI's products, they work great.

As CSI said, and many other more experienced brewers would agree, you could get some more flavors from the "proper" method. That being said, I have never had the real thing. I have had several other true belgian quads, and this came out in the same ballpark.
 
ultravista said:
CSI - what temperature do you recommend for a single infusion mash? Also, would you go with the traditional or new world with single infusion?

Any other advice for the mash?
Click to expand...

Ultra, that's a great question that we've been discussing back and forth here at CSI for a while. Mike likes to mash lower (150F) and I like to mash higher to increase the polysaccs for body/mouthfeel (155F). Since you can't really detect polysaccs on the palate you may end up with a higher FG but without the sweetness. Both methods turn out great. I like the heavier body to hide the high ABV.

Since I'm tasked with trial brewing, the higher mash temp is what shows up on our recipe page. Also, ask saq what his opinion is on this. He always has an interesting angle.
 
CSI - is the AJ responding? If yes, we've been bouncing emails back-and-forth on the same question. Which recipe on the recipe shows the higher single infusion mash temperature? The Westvleteren 12 Clone – Variation 017a version is decoction.

Do you advocate boiling down a gallon or so of the volume as saq mentioned in a few posts?

I brewed an outmeal stout this weekend and did just that - boiled down the "leftover" runnings after mashing in a bag. I mash and drain, batch sparge and drain, then place the bag in a 5 gallon bucket with an inverted colander (no legs - just round) to let the bag drain. I compress it a bit and after 15 minutes or so, get another 3 quarts of high quality run off.

This weekend, the leftovers were 1.045. After boiling off two quarts, the remaining quart or so was 1.086. I dumped that into the kettle near the end of the boil. I don't know what effect it will have, if any, but it smelled great, and was very condensed.
 
ultravista said:
CSI - is the AJ responding? If yes, we've been bouncing emails back-and-forth on the same question. Which recipe on the recipe shows the higher single infusion mash temperature? The Westvleteren 12 Clone – Variation 017a version is decoction.

Do you advocate boiling down a gallon or so of the volume as saq mentioned in a few posts?

I brewed an outmeal stout this weekend and did just that - boiled down the "leftover" runnings after mashing in a bag. I mash and drain, batch sparge and drain, then place the bag in a 5 gallon bucket with an inverted colander (no legs - just round) to let the bag drain. I compress it a bit and after 15 minutes or so, get another 3 quarts of high quality run off.

This weekend, the leftovers were 1.045. After boiling off two quarts, the remaining quart or so was 1.086. I dumped that into the kettle near the end of the boil. I don't know what effect it will have, if any, but it smelled great, and was very condensed.
Click to expand...

Is this AJ responding? Yep. that's me.

Do you advocate boiling down a gallon or so of the volume as saq mentioned in a few posts? I think it's a great idea not only for conservation and BHE but for flavor development. You can develop some amazing malty caramels this way. We develop those flavors with a less efficient method using a 'flash in the pan' sort of deglazing decoction but both will have superior results.

We also love Oatmeal stouts and have one on our recipe page that is all but perfected (and very simple to brew). One of our distributors picked it up and will be composing a kit based on it soon (DME with steeping grains). After 6 months in the bottle the flavors have a great blend of mild-dark chocolate and malt. Really amazing stuff. It doesn't last long around here :)
 
Do you have a Westy receipe available for single infusion?

Also the 17a version states 60 minute boil but the hop schedule is 63 minutes, 21, and 7. 63 minutes?
 
ultravista said:
Do you have a Westy receipe available for single infusion?

Also the 17a version states 60 minute boil but the hop schedule is 63 minutes, 21, and 7. 63 minutes?
Click to expand...


Yep, good observation. 60 min boil, and about 3 minutes to prep for plate chilling. Lupulins will still be releasing so it works out about right for our equipment.

We follow BLAM as a foundation for most recipes but a single infusion will also work. Just remove the pep/pro rest and decoction step and infuse for 90 minutes. You can vary the temp based on your preference for mouth-feel.
 
pixelhussar said:
Hello everyone,

Great thread, I think I'll brew this one soon.
Have you already tried to use home made candi syrup? Like this one here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/20-lb-sugar-jar-yeast-nutrient-114837/
Will it taste significantly different?


There is no candi syrup at my LHBS and the delivery costs were just huge.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I see you are in Hungary. You may be able to order it from www.[*****].ru in the Russian Federation with better shipping charges. Contact Artem, the owner. Also, if you have a central Hungarian distributor for brewing supplies, feel free to have them contact us through our site to discuss Hungarian distribution.

I can't comment on kitchen syrups since it might sound unobjective :) The HBT members here can comment more objectively.
 
Thanks!

I'm happy to forward your message to the supplier.:)

I forgot to ask something: do I need to slightly heat the fermentation vessel at the beginning (maybe an aquarium heater would make it)? Or it's OK to store it on room temp and cover with a blanket?

Thanks!
 
pixelhussar said:
Thanks!

I'm happy to forward your message to the supplier.:)

I forgot to ask something: do I need to slightly heat the fermentation vessel at the beginning (maybe an aquarium heater would make it)? Or it's OK to store it on room temp and cover with a blanket?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

You won't have to heat a fermenter - the wort will go in warm and then you pitch.
 

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