Pitching onto a yeast cake question

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bmason1623

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I am currently fermenting biermuncher's bavarian hefewizen. I plan on brewing Belgian Blonde next. I plan on pitching right onto the hefewizen yeast cake. If I do this, do I still need to pitch fresh yeast on top of it? Thank you.

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Don't pitch right onto the cake, especially if you want good ester and phenol production for a Belgian ale. Harvest it off the bottom of your bucket with a sanitized spoon, and go to mrmalty for how much to pitch on your next batch. Convert mrmalty's amount into tablespoons, and pitch just enough. Overpitching decreases ester and phenol production, leading to a "cleaner" profile, regardless of the yeast strain. It's also just sloppy practice.

If you do decide to disregard all the advice on the topic you are sure to receive and pitch onto the cake, then NO, absolutely do not pitch anymore yeast. It will already have WAY too much to begin with.
 
Yes you can pitch right on top.

No you don't need any more yeast, there is plenty in the cake; in fact way too much.

Recommend pitching onto about a quarter to a third of the cake. If you use too much yeast, they don't reproduce and you don't get the flavor characteristics from the yeast. Pitching too much yeast can also give you a some off flavors.
 
You can pitch on top (although some people disagree, do a search) but I have found with my carboy's it is easier to wash the yeast for the headspace. In my experience, it depends on the style and yeast for reracking a new beer ontop of an old yeast cake. I have only negative experience with a cream ale and the yeast overtook the profile. The best way to know for yourself is to experiment.
 
Ok. So it sounds like the same argument whether to use a secondary or not. Here's my next question, if making a lager, which needs large starters anyway, do I still skip adding additional yeast or not? Thank you again.

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Ok. So it sounds like the same argument whether to use a secondary or not.

Not really. I'd avoid overpitching like I'd avoid underpitching, unless you're a good enough brewer to know a particular yeast inside and out, well enough to know exactly what you're going to get by altering the pitch rates. Generally, that means professionals working with their house strains. Grossly altering pitch rates is an experiment for most of us, not a recommended way to make good beer.

As to your second question, if you know you're already overpitching, you certainly don't need to be adding more.
 
You will already have over 5x the required amount of yeast. As for it being like the secondary "debate" you're wrong. Secondary fermentation is an obsolete practice with sound science behind it. Overpitching yeast is sloppy, also with sound science behind it.
 
Secondary fermentation is an obsolete practice with sound science behind it.

I disagree. Secondary may not be necessary for a lot of beers, but there are very good reasons for using it for others. Examples: Fermenting and conditioning high (Belgians) should be taken off the cake relatively quickly as the heat accelerates the decay of the yeast, and any extended aging.
 
Calder, there is too much surface area of cake to appreciably increase the temperature after it has floculated. That concern belongs to conical owners only, due to the geometry of the bottom packing the cake into a tight area. Leaving big beers ON the cake has been shown to be much more beneficial than putting them in secondary. That's why bottle conditioned beers evolve and get so much better with age. Being on yeast does magical things.
 
Calder, there is too much surface area of cake to appreciably increase the temperature after it has floculated. That concern belongs to conical owners only, due to the geometry of the bottom packing the cake into a tight area. Leaving big beers ON the cake has been shown to be much more beneficial than putting them in secondary. That's why bottle conditioned beers evolve and get so much better with age. Being on yeast does magical things.

If I brew a Saison, I'll run the temp up high, and keep it high after it has finished. Talking about mid 70s. If I was using the Dupont strain. it would be north of 80. The yeast starts breaking down quickly at that temperature. I'm not leaving my beer on that cake for more than about 3 weeks.

Any beer you condition for a long period (more than a couple of months), should be taken off the cake too.

Next time you bottle a beer, save the cake in a mason jar and place in fridge. This environment should be better than room temperature in a fermenter. Open the jar after 6 months .......... You will never leave beer on a cake for a long time again! The yeast die/feed on them selves/ or other. The yeast will smell of burnt rubber. The more yeast you have in the fermenter/bottle for a long time, the more this flavor will get in the beer. If you minimize the yeast in the bottle/fermenter, you will never notice it.
 
What is the yeast cake? I'm a bit surprised about doing a german hef w/ a wit yeast, or a belgian blonde w/ a german hef yeast.
I am guessing you meant EdWort's Bavarian hefe (wy #3068 i think) and now doing BM' belgian blonde (white labs #400).
just curious.
 
Since HBT users are stubborn, I just want to add one more +1 to the DON'T PITCH ON THE ENTIRE YEAST CAKE.

It's just lazy brewing - you spend all this time picking out the perfect grain bill, adjusting your hop schedule, playing with mash techniques to get the tiniest increase in efficiency, and then you just want to indiscriminately dump a fat yeast turd in your beer? Taking care of your beer on the microbiological level is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing to making good beer - all that other crap is secondary. Yeast make beer, not us.
 
Ha. My wife accuses me of being super stubborn. I'm going to read the sticky on yeast washing and do that. Thanks everyone.

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