Can beer be primed and served out of a carboy without it going stale?

I have been racking my brain and trying to think of a means of by-passing bottling and being able to serve directly out of my carboy without kegs or co2. Does anyone have ideas? The idea of adding a hand pump system is as far as I have considered but I am concerned about air being introduced into the carboy during the hand pumping process. I am still thinking out loud here. Any ideas or is this impossible?

NO way. The carboys can't handle the pressure and you are just asking for trouble. Skip the experiment and buy a corny or may a tap a draft system.

Do a google search for "pressure barrel Fermenters." They're big in the UK but virtually unknown here in the states, don't know about Canada....

Revvy said:

Do a google search for "pressure barrel Fermenters." They're big in the UK but virtually unknown here in the states, don't know about Canada....

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Never heard of those. They look to be pretty much be plastic casks. Be pretty cool if you like cask beer and don't have the $ for the real thing.

Just get a spray bottle head and wedge it in your bung hole. Just a quick squeeze and you'll be drinking some of that delicious nectar. It could also serve as a BMC drinker repellent.

...but in all seriousness, I'm sure there is a way. I think a carboy could handle the pressure as long as you got a tight fitting, and what you'd essentially be doing is creating a yeast-ier cask ale.

I wouldn't trust a carboy to not fail under carbonating pressure levels. You're talking over 30psi at room temp there. Do you really want to have the carboy bust/explode? Never mind the beer loss, think of the potential personal injury that could result.

Golddiggie said:

I wouldn't trust a carboy to not fail under carbonating pressure levels. You're talking over 30psi at room temp there. Do you really want to have the carboy bust/explode? Never mind the beer loss, think of the potential personal injury that could result.

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YES!

They call those things I mentioned earlier, PRESSURE barrels for a reason.

Excuse my simple-folk logic, but I don't understand why a carboy couldn't handle this pressure? If the much less massive walls of a beer bottle can resist the pressure, why couldn't the walls of a much more massive carboy?

I was told of a contraption that used to be sold around here. It was described as a plastic, barrel like, container which housed a bladder which was inflated with air or something to displace head space. The pressure barrels seem to be hard to come by. On E-Bay, a 5 gallon pressure barrel would cost about $140 to ship here.

Get your drinking buddies to help supply bottles and bottle your brew, or get a keg. The potential risk is not worth skimping on the time and or cost of doing it right.

brewski08 said:

Excuse my simple-folk logic, but I don't understand why a carboy couldn't handle this pressure? If the much less massive walls of a beer bottle can resist the pressure, why couldn't the walls of a much more massive carboy?

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I can't quite pull it together right now, but I think it has a lot to do with the amount of surface area the pressure inside is acting against.

Do NOT use a carboy! They are not meant for pressure. They don't have any pressure relief capability. If you've ever had a bottle bomb imagine that x50. They may be thicker then a beer bottle but they are also about fifty times the volume. I'm no engineer but I can tell you pressurizing one is a bad idea. Pressure fermenters sound great but you can get a corny anywhere along with the gaskets, fittings and all the other nifty things you may have to replace later.

jeepinjeepin said:

I can't quite pull it together right now, but I think it has a lot to do with the amount of surface area the pressure inside is acting against.

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I am in no way endorsing the use of a carboy as a serving vessel, but for the sake of science, let's discuss this.

Pressure = Force/Area

A bottle explodes when the pressure of the interior exceeds the pressure of the exterior. Because the interior surface area is the same as the exterior surface area, we can also say that a bottle can explode if force acting on the interior of the bottle exceeds theft force acting on the exterior of the surface.

So now let's look at priming. We prime in order to create CO2 to carbonate our beer. The CO2 molecules are created and add to the force acting on the interior of the bottle. Assuming a proper priming (even sugar distribution in the correct amount), you would essentially create 50 or so miniature carboys with the same interior force.

...and now I realize the flaw in my logic. Theoretically, if I would then combine all of this force into a single vessel (carboy), the area would not increase proportionally to the force, increasing the interior pressure.

TL; DR: DO NOT PRESSURIZE A CARBOY.

Drop a beer bottle on a carpeted or wood floor and more times then not it's going to survive. Do that with a glass carboy and that thing is shrapnel. Beer bottles are a hell of a lot stouter then glass carboys. I would guess once you get above a wine / champagne bottle and into growler size it's going to be weak as heck. I can't imagine how thick a glass carboy would have to be that it could handle the pressure of smaller bottles. I'm not sure it's even possible. To much mass. I'm sure someone has some formula that explains it all much better then my simpleton explanation.

NavyMarine1978 said:

I was told of a contraption that used to be sold around here. It was described as a plastic, barrel like, container which housed a bladder which was inflated with air or something to displace head space. The pressure barrels seem to be hard to come by. On E-Bay, a 5 gallon pressure barrel would cost about $140 to ship here.

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Sounds like the party pig to me.

But that's still a seperate vessel you move the beer to AFTER it's fermented. That's not what you seemed to imply in your initial post, you said you want something that you ferment in then carb up and serve from. Unfortunately the only thing is that hard to come by pressure barrel. Or fermenting in a keg....

But neither bottling or kegging are all that difficult.

I think those that are trying to convince themselves this is a good idea, or even viable, are forgetting one important item... HOW are you going to contain 30-40psi within a glass, or plastic, carboy?? Go past about 2psi and a bung/stopper will shoot out of it. If you're going to modify it so that the stopper stays inside it, then you're already going through steps that will [most likely] weaken the vessel so that it WILL fail... horribly.

IMO, this is far more effort than it's worth. IF you really want to retain carbonation created from fermentation, get either a conical, or a sanke keg to ferment in (or other vessel designed for the job). With a keg, you don't need to worry about it failing in the process, since they're designed to withstand higher pressure levels. A sanke is rated for 60psi, where a corny keg is rated for 130psi. There are adapters made for conical fermenters to allow this, and there are at least a few threads outlining making valves for sanke fermenters (or other keg fermenters).

Do it right so that we don't have to read about another HBT member going to the emergency room when their carboy exploded on them cutting the hell out of their hands (or worse).

BTW, while it might be a decent idea to partially carbonate a brew while it's fermenting (by retaining some pressure in vessel) I wouldn't try to serve from the same vessel. It's easy to transfer from a fermenting keg to a serving keg with a CO2 push. I do it with each batch in fact.

brewski08 said:

Excuse my simple-folk logic, but I don't understand why a carboy couldn't handle this pressure? If the much less massive walls of a beer bottle can resist the pressure, why couldn't the walls of a much more massive carboy?

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There's a whole lot more to pressure containment than the thickness of the glass. There's the type of glass in the first place, as well as geometry, as well as, i imagine, the exact process by which the glass was formed into its final shape.

Just get a party pig system..50 bucks and your g2g

Don't some people ferment under pressure in cornies?If you cut an inch or so off your tube it seems like you could dispense from your fermenter.

I could be full of it

This is what I used prior to kegging -similar to the party pig: http://www.midwestsupplies.com/tap-a-draft-starter-kit.html

brewski08 said:

Just get a spray bottle head and wedge it in your bung hole. Just a quick squeeze

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i'm cringing...

brewski08 said:

I am in no way endorsing the use of a carboy as a serving vessel, but for the sake of science, let's discuss this.

Pressure = Force/Area

A bottle explodes when the pressure of the interior exceeds the pressure of the exterior. Because the interior surface area is the same as the exterior surface area, we can also say that a bottle can explode if force acting on the interior of the bottle exceeds theft force acting on the exterior of the surface.

So now let's look at priming. We prime in order to create CO2 to carbonate our beer. The CO2 molecules are created and add to the force acting on the interior of the bottle. Assuming a proper priming (even sugar distribution in the correct amount), you would essentially create 50 or so miniature carboys with the same interior force.

...and now I realize the flaw in my logic. Theoretically, if I would then combine all of this force into a single vessel (carboy), the area would not increase proportionally to the force, increasing the interior pressure.

TL; DR: DO NOT PRESSURIZE A CARBOY.

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Wow. Holy wow.

pabloj13 said:

Wow. Holy wow.

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i know, i know...i just got done taking my MCAT and simply cannot get all these worthless physics lessons out of my head.

Revvy said:

Sounds like the party pig to me.

But that's still a seperate vessel you move the beer to AFTER it's fermented. That's not what you seemed to imply in your initial post, you said you want something that you ferment in then carb up and serve from. Unfortunately the only thing is that hard to come by pressure barrel. Or fermenting in a keg....

But neither bottling or kegging are all that difficult.

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True. I am not opposed to bottling. I have chosen bottling over kegging merely for traditions sake. I am attempting to make beer as close to the original methods as possible without creating to much extra work for myself. I like the idea of letting time do its part instead of forced carbonation. Sometimes though, my impatience causes me to consider kegging but my pocket book suggest otherwise. I was originally considering the wooden kegs of old and how they must have remained sealed until taped? I also assume that some of the beer within that wooden keg must have gone sour or stale? Those wooden kegs held pressure? Hase anyone tried wooden keg brewing and is it worth it?

NavyMarine1978

VaBrewer said:

This is what I used prior to kegging -similar to the party pig: http://www.midwestsupplies.com/tap-a-draft-starter-kit.html

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Would you happen to know why the manufacture states that the tap-a-draft is only good for 6 batches? Is that referring to the parts that wear out?

NavyMarine1978

If you really want to serve right out of your secondary you can get a lid for your keg to turn it into a fermenter.

http://www.homebrewing.org/Cornelious-Keg-Lid-for-Secondary-Fermenter_p_999.html

That way no exploding glas and you wouldn't have to transfer it around. Adventures in home brewing sells them rather cheap. I have done it before and if you adjust the pressure on your regulator you can almost get a cask style ale

As for the tap a draft, my first kegging setup you can get it to last more than 6 batches if you properly care for your bottles. They are plastic and do have seams but it's regulated at 15psi and you cannot adjust that. Good news is tap a draft fits three liter pop bottles and glass Demi johns (one gallon) though be careful with the one gallon glass jugs

I just had a batch of wheat beer with fruit puree added to the bottles blow-by the flip lid gasket, up my wall and onto my ceiling. No bottle explosions here but, still just as messy. I had added to much fruit puree to the bottles. The bottles are rated to hold 125psi. So, the fruit puree added (92g/bottles) was to much fruit sugar as not not bottling sugars was added. I may try this again with a lesser amount of fruit puree as I still want a cherry beer with cherry sediment in the bottles and a very cherry flavour.

NavyMarine1978

The hoop stress in the cylindrical part of the carboy is related to both the pressure AND the diameter. Geometry of the other parts of the carboy also come into play. Since this is a huge safety issue, don't do it if it wasn't designed for it.

ncbrewer said:

The hoop stress in the cylindrical part of the carboy is related to both the pressure AND the diameter. Geometry of the other parts of the carboy also come into play. Since this is a huge safety issue, don't do it if it wasn't designed for it.

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I am just trying to find a vessel that it good for both fermenting and carbonating naturally.

NavyMarine1978

NavyMarine1978 said:

I am just trying to find a vessel that it good for both fermenting and carbonating naturally.

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A keg.

You can ferment in a keg, carb it up naturally, and serve it. After you start serving, you'll need some co2 to push it out. They have little co2 guns that you can use to push out the beer.

NavyMarine1978 said:

I am just trying to find a vessel that it good for both fermenting and carbonating naturally.

NavyMarine1978

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Casks. Pins and Firkins. Ferment in a carboy. Transfer to a cask and prime.

Edit: dangit yoop. Beat me again.

The hoop strength of glass is not all that great. that is why they use Aluminum and SS.
Also the pressure is PSI which is force per inches squared. The surface area of the Carboy is pretty large and thereforie the forces in there are just a bit too much for glass in my opinion.

But hell, give it a shot and for the sake of science keep vidoeo rolling as I'd be interested in the catastrophic failure.

But keep it behind a safety sheild, I dont want anyone getting hurt.

Maybe you can test the PSI of the bottle prior to wasting the beer... food for thought.



Be safe.. Bottle.

i read some where you can use a soft sided 2.5 - 5 gal campers water container the type that has a spigot and lightly carb it for cask ale

$145 + shipping (which is quite reasonable) for an entire system including corny, Co2 bottle, regulator, party faucet and hoses here: http://www.bvrgelements.com/category/Kit/

Yooper said:

A keg.

You can ferment in a keg, carb it up naturally, and serve it. After you start serving, you'll need some co2 to push it out. They have little co2 guns that you can use to push out the beer.

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I assume that the little co2 guns would be carried where ever the kegging equipment is sold?

NavyMarine1978

NavyMarine1978 said:

I assume that the little co2 guns would be carried where ever the kegging equipment is sold?

NavyMarine1978

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yeah, You can buy them at pretty much any LHBS.
Here is an example.

http://www.brewmasterswarehouse.com/product/0101657/portable-co2-charger