Dance of the Dead - Blackened Rye DIPA

Stats via Beer Smith
Note: Efficiency only 60.00, got poor efficiency from the mini-mash but that equally increased the hop utilization. This is a two stage partial mash, see below.

6 lbs Pilsner Liquid Extract [Boil for 15 min] (39.34 %)
3 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (19.67 %)
2 lbs Carafa III (13.11 %)
Please Use Debittered Black Malt!
1 lbs 4.0 oz Chocolate Rye Malt (8.20 %)
1 lbs Crystal Rye (6.56 %)
1 lbs Flaked Rye (6.56 %)
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (6.56 %)
.5 lb rice hulls

2.00 oz Chinook [13.60 %] (60 min)
0.50 oz Centennial [9.00 %] (40 min)
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (30 min)
1.50 oz Cascade [7.20 %] (2 min)
2.00 oz Chinook [13.60 %] (2 min)
1.50 oz Centennial [9.00 %] (2 min)

1.00 oz Cascade (Dry Hop 7 days into fermentation)
1.00 oz Centennial (Dry Hop 3 day prior to removal from fermenter)

0.25 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min)
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient
1 Pkgs California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [Starter]
1 Pkgs SafAle American (DCL Yeast #US-05) [Starter]

Notes
Mini Mash the Pale Malt, Flaked Rye and Rice Hulls in 2.5 Gallons at 170.5, step temp 158 for 40 minutes, heat back to 168 for 10-15 minutes for mash out, transfer to primary boil kettle upon completion of steep below...

Steep speciality grains (using steeping bag) in 1.5 gallons at 158 for 30 minutes in primary boil kettle, quick batch sparge .5 gallon at 170, add the mini mash wort above. Add water to achieve proper pre-boil amount, boil for 60 minutes.

Add Liquid Extract at 15 minutes, stirring often at this point to prevent scorching of the wort.

Is it worth the extra effort? Well, the proof was in the taste and aroma.

As a fellow enthusiast of big hoppy beers, I have a couple thoughts/questions:

- overall, it looks interesting, how many times have you made it?

- 2lbs of caraIII seems like a lot as most times it's 1-5% of the grain bill - from the website: 490-560°L. Dehusked Carafa III intensifies the aroma and color of dark beers while contributing very low astringency —very smooth. Use 1-5%. Ideal for bock, doppelbock, altbier, and especially Schwarzbier. Small amounts can be used for color adjustment in amber beers. Also nice in stouts and porters.

- interesting idea to use both US-05 and a WLP001 w/ a starter; could you explain your thoughts behind that, as they are both considered to be the same strain of yeast and making a true starter with dry yeast isn't neccissary

- that seems to be an unconventional dry-hop schedule; what do you think it adds to this beer? (I would think that the aroma from the 1 oz of Cascade 7 days in would be driven off by the continued fermentation, and the Centennial addition 2 days before bottling/kegging wouldn't have enough time to do much)

Unless I'm missing something.

6lbs LME gives you about 43 gravity points
At 75% efficency, PM of 3lbs of 2-row might be another 17 points
Steeped everything else seperate (no diastatic power present), no additional gravity.

You don't have the potential for much over 1.060 for an OG.
Stratification of the LME is a possible explanation for your 1.080 reading.

Mashing at 158 degrees could be part of the reason for the 1.021 FG.
Not as many fermentable sugars will be extracted in a high temperature mash.

I apologize if this critiquing is not appreciated.
This isn’t the recipe / ingredient section where it should be done before coming here.

AnOldUR said:

Unless I'm missing something.

6lbs LME gives you about 43 gravity points
At 75% efficiency, PM of 3lbs of 2-row might be another 17 points
Steeped everything else separate (no diastatic power present), no additional gravity.

You don't have the potential for much over 1.060 for an OG.
Stratification of the LME is a possible explanation for your 1.080 reading.

Mashing at 158 degrees could be part of the reason for the 1.021 FG.
Not as many fermentable sugars will be extracted in a high temperature mash.

I apologize if this critiquing is not appreciated.
This isn’t the recipe / ingredient section where it should be done before coming here.

Click to expand...

Well first off, my estimate OG was to be 1.081 and my reading with the
Hydrometer was 1.080. I guess that stratification could have been an issue but I really did stir the wort often after adding the Pils LME.

Not sure what you mean by the last comment, I thought completed recipe go here and the other forum is for recipe that you have not brewed or you had question about how to improve your product?

AZ_IPA said:

As a fellow enthusiast of big hoppy beers, I have a couple thoughts/questions:

- overall, it looks interesting, how many times have you made it?

- 2lbs of caraIII seems like a lot as most times it's 1-5% of the grain bill - from the website: 490-560°L. Dehusked Carafa III intensifies the aroma and color of dark beers while contributing very low astringency —very smooth. Use 1-5%. Ideal for bock, doppelbock, altbier, and especially Schwarzbier. Small amounts can be used for color adjustment in amber beers. Also nice in stouts and porters.

- interesting idea to use both US-05 and a WLP001 w/ a starter; could you explain your thoughts behind that, as they are both considered to be the same strain of yeast and making a true starter with dry yeast isn't necessary

- that seems to be an unconventional dry-hop schedule; what do you think it adds to this beer? (I would think that the aroma from the 1 oz of Cascade 7 days in would be driven off by the continued fermentation, and the Centennial addition 2 days before bottling/kegging wouldn't have enough time to do much)

Click to expand...

1) While normally that much Carafa would be overkill, with the bitterness level it provides a wonderful buffer and prevented the beer from becoming over astrengent (an issue with many Black IPA's I found).

2) I had worries about the viability of the WLP001, so I added the dry yeast just in case, I love how quickly the initial fermentation took off and how clean the beer finished so I left what I did in my post. I am sure you could just fine with only the WLP001.

3) You are correct that I likely could have used the dry hops better, but again I posted what I did to accuracy. All I know was the hop aroma was very strong when I went to bottle, so much so that it actually gave me a headache.

4) While I have only brewed this once myself, a friend of mine brewed it as well and his beer turned out very close to mine, I was confident enough in the recipe to post it here. I also know that ever beer geek I gave a bottle to loved the brew so I think I did something correctly.

bbb63 said:

Well first off, my estimate OG was to be 1.081 and my reading with the
Hydrometer was 1.080. I guess that stratification could have been an issue but I really did stir the wort often after adding the Pils LME.

Click to expand...

I think it was your "60.00 poor efficiency" comment that made things confusing.

Perhaps AnOldUR is forgetting that not all grains require conversion to contribute to gravity. Your flaked rye does, however. Consider adding it into your mini-mash with the rice hulls next time to get them converted. Otherwise, they're not adding much to the beer except haze.

bbb63 said:

Well first off, my estimate OG was to be 1.081 and my reading with the Hydrometer was 1.080.

Click to expand...

I'm just trying to understand the recipe. If I plug all the ingredients into BeerSmith and set it at 75% efficiency and Partial Mash the estimated OG is 1.091. I have to set it to 60% efficiency to get 1.081.

But that’s not what has me confused. The way you’ve described your process, all the other grains were steeped separate from the 2-row. It has been my understanding that unless you have grain present with enough diastatic power you will not get conversion, just flavor and color.

So, my question is, where are the fermentables coming from beyond the 1.060 SG potential from the 2-row and LME? How are you getting an estimate of 1.081?

bbb63 said:

Not sure what you mean by the last comment . . .

Click to expand...

This only meant that since this is not the other forum, you might see my comments as out of place. In which I'll stop.

jkarp said:

Perhaps AnOldUR is forgetting that not all grains require conversion to contribute to gravity.

Click to expand...

Oops, your right. Caramel and roasted malts have been converted in the malting or roasting process.

And wouldn't you know it. The caramel an roasted malts add up to 21 points, so that's 1.081.

My second dose of crow today.

But wait, I'm still confused.
Like jkarp said. Those numbers are at 75% efficiency and you said you got 60% and a 1.080 reading.

AnOldUR said:

Oops, your right. Caramel and roasted malts have been converted in the malting or roasting process.

And wouldn't you know it. The caramel an roasted malts add up to 21 points, so that's 1.081.

My second dose of crow today.

But wait, I'm still confused.
Like jkarp said. Those numbers are at 75% efficiency and you said you got 60% and a 1.080 reading.

Click to expand...

At 75% it would be an estimated 1.090 at 60% is was 1.081. You actually did correct yourself in the post before.

no harm asking questions by the way.

jkarp is correct, the flaked rye should be included in the minimash along with the 2-row. That is my bad, doh! I have edited the recipe to reflect that... see we both have to eat some crow.

bbb63 said:

jkarp is correct, the flaked rye should be included in the minimash along with the 2-row. That is my bad, doh! I have edited the recipe to reflect that... see we both have to eat some crow.

Click to expand...

I was about to suggest just doing all your grains in the mash and caught myself. That amount of dark malts would ROYALLY hose the pH and likely kill any conversion. Steeping them is smart.

So I'm trying to do this recipe and I just bought most of them, but I forgot to separate the mini-mash grains from the steeping grains. I see jkarps post above that its not ideal to have them all in the mash but I'm wondering if there is any way to get around this. I did have to modify the grain bill a little based on what they had at my LHBS. Here are the grains that I have.

In one mix:
3 lbs pale 2 row
1 lb chocolate rye
1 lb crystal wheat
1 lb cara pils

Separate I have:
1 lb midnight wheat
1 lb carafa III

I am thinking about putting the separate grains in a steep and the others in the mash, but this is my first mini mash beer so I'm not quite sure how to go about this. I thought maybe removing some of the dark grains might help alleviate the affect jkarp mentioned.