Thoughts/ideas on my American Barleywine (modifcation to Jamil's BCS version)

Been playing around with a recipe for an American style Barleywine based on Jamil's version from the Brewing Classic styles book:



19-C American Barleywine
Pre-boil amount: 13.9 gal
Post boil amount: 12.0 gal
Mash efficiency: 92.0%
Yeast attenuation: 81.0%
Original Gravity: 1.116 (style: 1.080 - 1.120)
Terminal Gravity: 1.022 (style: 1.016 - 1.030)
Color: 15.25 (style: 10.0 - 19.0)
Alcohol: 12.55% (style: 8.0% - 12.0%)
Bitterness: 101.1 (style: 50.0 - 120.0)

Ingredients:
36.5 lb Standard 2-Row (87.1% of grain bill)
1.6 lb Corn Sugar (3.8% of grain bill)
1.9 lb Cara-amber 27L (4.5% of grain bill)
1.9 lb Crystal 90L (4.5% of grain bill)
4.5 oz Magnum (14.4%) - added during boil, boiled 60.0 min
2.0 oz Chinook (11.4%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min
3.0 oz Centennial (9.2%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min
3.0 oz Amarillo (8.6%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min
48 g Fermentis Safale US-05

Notes:
Mash at 1.25 qt/lb
Campden tablet to tap water.
Single infusion mash at 149F for 90 mins.
Boil 60 mins.
Aerate well. Ferment at 65-68F.


I dropped the small addition (0.25 lbs per 6 gal) of Pale Chocolate malt and Special B (since I don't have any) and the other Crystals are approximations.

It's slightly too high in ABV to fit the style but hey, that's Jamil's recipe and I'm already brewing 9% IIPA's so I want this one to be at the upper end of the style.

The 40.3 lbs of grain at a mash thickness of 1.25qt/lb is about the max that my mash tun can handle too from my math (Blichmann 20 gallon pot filled to 75%).

I haven't thought too much about water treatment for this one yet but I'll probably target Moser's Ideal Pale Ale numbers as this one's along the same style idea as an APA/IPA/IIPA right?

I'll probably dry hop too with about 2 oz per 6 gallons (using some of the same of the 0 min addition hops (Chinook/Centennial/Amarillo). I'm surprised that Jamil's recipe doesn't have any dry hops. I figured that would almost be a requirement for an American Barleywine style no?

I'll ferment to completion and let it settle out in the primary for about a 3-4 weeks and then either rack to 5 gallon carboys or kegs where it'll sit for at least 9-12 months before it's consumed.

Thoughts?

Kal

In general I say it looks good. Not too dissimilar to a great number of BW recipes online. Not to turn the conversation to my recipe/BW but I formulated my recipe after looking at 2 or 3 award winning recipes online and listening to Jamil's BW podcast & Can You Brew It's 'Old Crustacean' BW show. Seems the best approach is 88-95% base-malt, go big, bitter for balance, and give it varying degrees of hop presence. To me the amount of hop presence is one of the few differentiations between the great many recipes I checked out. As such I put together a 5 gallon batch that uses about 6 oz. of hops including a couple oz. dry-hop and many thought it a bit too much. I don't think so though as Bigfoot is one of the flagship examples for the style and it's quite hoppy and certainly has a dry-hop feel. Without doing the math I'm guessing your BU:GU ration is pretty good, memory says it should be something around 85%?

Additionaly adding to the 88-95% base grain mentioned above, many successful recipes seemed to have 5-8% crystal malt & 5-8% sucrose (table sugar). So I think you could increase your table-sugar if you'd like, though there's no need to with such a high SG already! I can't see anything wrong with your recipe at all, I'd simply add that I think you should possible mash at 149 for 70 mins. then 155 for 25 and of course I'm sure you're doing a mash-out. My reasoning for raising the mash temp is that my standard mash temp for average APAs etc. is 151-152. At that # I get attenuation down to 1.007 on 1.055 bier with US-05. Love that yeast but it might dry out the BW if pitched properly no matter how big the bier is. A 20-30 min raised mash would ensure against it drying out.

My $.02

Schlante,
Phillip

Hi Philip!

Yes, my BU:GU is 101:116 which works out to 87%. Pretty close to your 85% estimate.

I've been listening to Jamils podcast on American Barleywines too. It's here: http://s125483039.onlinehome.us/archive/Jamil01-15-07.mp3

I'm thinking of changing out the 2-row for Marris Otter for some extra malt depth and increasing the boil time from 60 to 90 minutes....

Also toying with the idea of replacing the 27L CaraAmber with 10L Munich Type II.

I do like your idea of increasing the corn sugar - it's something else that (in retrospect) seems like it may be a bit low. I think I could go higher without affecting the flavour. It would help with attenuation a bit too (to get it into the right FG range somewhere in the low to mid 20's if possible. Not to make it too dry of course - as a Barleywine's not supposed to be too attenuative but also not cloyingly sweet).

Any thoughts on water profile? Should I go for Moser's ideal Pale Ale numbers (Cl:S04 is 'very bitter') or try and targer a Cl:S04 that is more 'balanced'.

Thanks for the hints!

Kal

Kal, you're asking entirely the wrong person about water-profile! I'm in the 'brew with the water you got to test it out and go with it if things go well' camp when it comes to water! Hopefully someone experienced in that area will have some input in that area.

As for adding munich malt, there are a lot of people who add munich &/or vienna. I've got no problem with that actually liking the idea, but it's not the direction I'm choosing to go.

I'm curious what people think of your hop profile. I would consider doing a FWH addition in lieu of adding it once the boil is going. Just a preference to add more flavor to the brew. Also I know mine is a 90 min. boil.

Btw that's a HUGE bier I hope you're planning on letting it sit 12-24 months before drinking and saving a 6er for 3 or 4 years! Mmmmm good. I've got my recipe figured out at 10.1% abv, calling it 'Perfect 10'.

Schlante,
Phil

Thanks Phil. I'll consider FWH instead of the 60 min addition.

And yes, this stuff will sit in a dark/cool place for a good year before it's kegged.

Kal

Finally brewed my American Barley Wine yesterday!

After reading a bit and listing to a podcast on it on the Brewing Network my final recipe was slightly different than the original I posted (see below). I changed the 2-row for Maris Otter for added depth and simplified the crystal down to only 90L and then added a little bit of Munich II. Also added some dry hopping. This is an American Barley Wine after all so dry hopping only seems to make sense!

I mashed for over 2 hours and then boiled for 2 hours. The longer boil means that I was able to sparge longer to get more sugars. At the end of the sparge the sweet wort was still at 1.015/140F (1.030/68F)! So there was some sugar left behind but not an enormous amount I suppose.

In the past I've been able to hit 92% efficiency on all my beers (from 3% to 9% styles). I figured that my efficiency would take a hit here but I had no idea how much so I still assumed 92% going in. Turns out I got 86%. So my 1.109 original target actually turned into 1.102. Oh well!

Now that I know my efficiency for very high gravity beers (11-12% ABV) I know how to compensate in the future. Funny that my 9% ABV IIPA brewed last didn't suffer in efficiency at all. I still got 92% out of my setup on that beer. So somewhere between 9-12% ABV my system efficiency starts to drop.

Reading the Barley Wine section in Designing Great Beers, they mention targetting Pale Ale/IPA water so I used Moser's Ideal Pale Ale numbers for salt additions. (Same thing I do for APAs, IPAs, bitters, IIPAs, etc).

American Barley Wine (117)
19-C American Barleywine
Size: 12.0 gal
Efficiency: 86.13%
Attenuation: 81.0%
Original Gravity: 1.102 (1.080 - 1.120)
Terminal Gravity: 1.019 (1.016 - 1.030)
Color: 15.87 (10.0 - 19.0)
Alcohol: 11.02% (8.0% - 12.0%)
Bitterness: 101.1 (50.0 - 120.0)

Ingredients:
36.5 lb Maris Otter (92.4%)
2 lb Crystal 90 (5.1%)
1 lb Munich TYPE II (2.5%)
4.5 oz Magnum (14.4%) - added during boil, boiled 60.0 min
1 ea Whirlfloc Tablets (Irish moss) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
2.0 oz Chinook (11.4%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min
3.0 oz Centennial (9.2%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min
3.0 oz Amarillo (8.6%) - added during boil, boiled 0.0 min
30 g Fermentis US-05 Safale US-05 - Fermenter #1
30 g Fermentis US-05 Safale US-05 - Fermenter #2
3.0 oz Centennial (9.2%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
3.0 oz Amarillo (8.6%) - added dry to secondary fermenter

Brewing network podcast on Barley Wine: http://s125483039.onlinehome.us/archive/Jamil01-15-07.mp3
39.5 lbs of grain. 1.25 qt/lb mash thickness.
Strike water = (39.5 x 1.25)/4 = 12.3 gal + 0.5 gal (hoses/HERMS) = 12.8 gal.
Loss to grain absorption = 39.5 x 0.12 = 4.7 gal.
Sparge water = initial kettle volume + loss - stike = 15.8 + 4.7 - 12.8 = 7.7 gal.
Due to massive amount of grain/water and long boil time, HLT and MLT were filled separately:
Filled HLT to ~14 gallon mark. Added 3/4 Campden tablet. pH before: _____/_____F, after: _____/_____F
Filled MLT with strike water. Added 3/4 Campden tablet. pH before: _____/_____F, after: _____/_____F
Heated both to 149F strike temp.
Dough in. pH with salts: _______/_______F. Added ______ ml Lactic acid to mash. pH: _______/_______F.
Single infusion mash @ 149F for 120 minutes. pH at end of mash: _____/_____F. Mash out to 168F.
Acidify sparge water to ~6 pH with _______ ml Lactic acid in _______ gallons. pH: _______/_______F.
Sparge with 168F water for 1-2 hrs. pH of collected wort should be below 6.0 (below 5.6-5.8 preferred).
@ _______ gal: _______/_______F ________/_______F, @ _______ gal: _______/_______F ________/_______F
@ _______ gal: _______/_______F ________/_______F, @ _______ gal: _______/_______F ________/_______F
Gravity units (GU) = Target OG X Target vol = 115 x 12= 1380. Pre-boil SG = GU / pre-boil vol = 1380/15.8 = 1.087 (at 72F)
Collected _______ gallons in kettle. pH= _______/_______F (5.5 is perfect). SG was 1.0______/______F (1.0______/68F)
Boil for 120 mins at 85% power. Lid on at flameout when 0 minute hops are added. Start chilling immediately.
End volume: _______ gallons. Boiled off _______ gallons.
Got approx _______ gallons at 1.0______/_______F (1.0______/68F) into fermenters. pH of wort: _______/_______F (5.2 is perfect).
Aerate well. Hydrate yeast for a good hour until frothy.
Fermentation at 66-67F for first week or so, raise to 70F and keep there for a week. Should take a good 2 weeks to ferment out.
Dry hops for ~2 weeks. Secondary until clear. Keg and age for 1+ years.

Kal

Hey,
How did this beer taste? Did you age it for as long as you mentioned? Did the dry hops hold up that long?

Turned out great and still tastes fantastic. In fact, I've barely touched it as I've been aging it. 2 years has really brought out the best in this beer.

It was kegged in July 2010 and kept at serving temperature. It's interesting to taste how it changed over the first year and a half. The hoppiness mellowed a bit so you want to aim high on IBU knowing this. The malt flavours took on more of a plum/raisin taste as it aged and the 'hot' taste due to the high alcohol content subsided.

A bunch of local brewers who are studying together for their Beer Judge Certification Program (BJCP) exam got together in Dec 2011 to discuss the Barleywine / Old Ale style so I provided some of mine for them to compare against many of the commercial styles available. I'm always curious to get feedback on my beers from other brewers so here are some of their comments on this Barleywine after being aged for 17 months:

"Hands down the hoppiest presence of all the BWs - but in a good way. Hoppily assertive up front, but balanced out by the malt, and a lingering, balanced malt/bitter finish."

"It was a great tasting barleywine and probably one of the best we tried last night."

"It was awesome Kal, thanks for bringing it."

Kal

Love it when these old threads pop up in 'my replies' tab. Glad to hear this turned out so well.

As for my effort ... it's the only confirmed infection I've had in a beer, could have named it Band-Aid City! LOL

MVKTR2 said:

Love it when these old threads pop up in 'my replies' tab. Glad to hear this turned out so well.

Click to expand...

Yup! Fun isn't it? I did a double take when I saw the email come in and checked the date of the last post in the thread.

The beer's one that I purposely tried to forget about (having ~20 kegs or so helps). Every once and a while when I remember or when I want to shock a Bud/Miller/Coors beer drinker I'll pull off a couple of ounces and have them taste it.

It's really nice. Every few months I'll pull off a few ounces and try it out. Speaking of which it's been a few months now ... time to try it again... BRB!

Kal

kal said:

I'll probably dry hop too with about 2 oz per 6 gallons (using some of the same of the 0 min addition hops (Chinook/Centennial/Amarillo). I'm surprised that Jamil's recipe doesn't have any dry hops. I figured that would almost be a requirement for an American Barleywine style no?

Click to expand...

I know he doesn't dry-hop his english ipa, but he may not dryhop his american ipa as well (too tired to look it up). I guess if you're going to age it for years, there may not be a lot of benefit to dry-hopping.

Dry hopping a beer that in theory could still be consumed years after brewing is probably not going to be very effective.

My question for the OP is how are you getting a 92% mash efficiency? That's just crazy good!

MDVDuber said:

My question for the OP is how are you getting a 92% mash efficiency? That's just crazy good!

Click to expand...

It was actually 86%. 92% was a guess for this very high gravity beer since normally I get around 95-96%. You can see my setup at www.TheElectricBrewery.com.

With really high gravity beers efficiency drops because you're using less sparge water than usual to rinse more grain than usual and end up leaving more sugars behind. This is true of any brewing setup. I've brewed 9% ABV IIPA's and still achieved close to my regular 95% efficency. With this Barleywine the effiency dropped to 86%. Still very high. The end result was a 12% ABV beer instead of the original target of 12.5%.

Kal