All Group Buy Participants - NCM Price Change

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CidahMastah

CidahMastah

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Hi All,

I wanted to start this thread because I think at a minimum I want to make you all consider other options for buying grain. NCM has arbitrarily increased grain pricing by over 20% to all those in the home brewing community. They have made good money from us based on our buying power and now they have decided to give us the slight of hand. When a business makes this sort of a decision I think we all as buyers should consider whether we should continue buying from them. The intent, I am sure, is to increase the price and lower the volume. However they will retain a typical sales revenue that is much the same as before, yet we will all get significantly less product.

I am not here to start a revolution, or coordinate anything. I just want to make you all think about how you can vote with your wallet and send NCM a message.

Please consider finding other suppliers, circumventing the rules in any legal way that you can.

Please use this thread to post your thoughts on the recent occurrence and perhaps we will come up with a better resolution for all of this.

For those of you who have found local breweries to support your buy - kudos in bypassing the price change to NCM.

Best to all,

CLICK HERE for the BUYING POLICY INFORMATION:



Old pricing details:
To see the catalog, go to:http://www.countrymaltgroup.com/download.asp?f=f6
The password is "CMGCHAMP".


Other Malt Suppliers List:

1. Valley Malt http://www.valleymalt.com/ (Massachusetts)

2. Brewers Supply Group bought Crosby & Baker (homebrew shop supplier)
http://www.brewerssupplygroup.com/home.html
http://bsghandcraft.com/index.php/home/

3. http://www.gwkent.com/brewery/ingredients.html?cat=166

Coop start up info:

http://www.ncba.coop/

http://www.sba.gov/content/cooperative
 
claphamsa said:
Are there other major distributors? has anyone contacted them?
Click to expand...

This depends on your location. But what would be great would be to get a list going of potential companies. I would rather pay the same price NCM is offering from another vendor at this point.

I could keep a list running on post 1 as they come in - please post them. I will start with valley malt (see link above)
 
I wonder if we could figure out how much grain HBT members have bought from them over the years and let them know what they are losing. They probably don't give a hoot but still it would send a message.
 
Fastmetal said:
I wonder if we could figure out how much grain HBT members have bought from them over the years and let them know what they are losing. They probably don't give a hoot but still it would send a message.
Click to expand...

It would be interesting to know. However they increased the price, so my interpretation is that they are hoping to make the same money, by selling less grain. So higher cost, less product. At the end they still make the same money, we just get less because we are home brewers.

Cranny04 - thanks and I added your links to post 1
 
Cranny04 said:
Brewers Supply Group bought Crosby & Baker (homebrew shop supplier)

http://www.brewerssupplygroup.com/home.html
http://bsghandcraft.com/index.php/home/


I haven't contacted them, but it may be worth a try...
Click to expand...

From the brewersupply website

Importantly, the “new” BSG we will continue to carry the portfolio of brands of both previously separate
companies. As we go forward, therefore, you can rely on the same inventory for your business as in the
past! The “new” BSG will also continue the old C&B policy of never selling directly to end-users—not in
person, and not online!
 
CidahMastah said:
It would be interesting to know. However they increased the price, so my interpretation is that they are hoping to make the same money, by selling less grain. So higher cost, less product. At the end they still make the same money, we just get less because we are home brewers.

Cranny04 - thanks and I added your links to post 1
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing. If they increased prices 40% they can afford to loose 30 % of their volume and still come out even.
 
CidahMastah said:
Hi All,

I wanted to start this thread because I think at a minimum I want to make you all consider other options for buying grain. NCM has arbitrarily increased grain pricing by over 20% to all those in the home brewing community.
Click to expand...

Can I ask where you got this information?
 
Reelale said:
Can I ask where you got this information?
Click to expand...

I spoke with a representative at NCM. However the pricing they have provided via updated price sheet so you can compare the numbers yourself. I did my estimates off of our former costs in our group buy vs. the new "Home Brewer's" price sheet.
 
Just wondering if you are aware of what has happened to the price of say for instance corn, or hay over the past year?. Here in the Midwest the price corn has doubled in the past year. Hay has more than doubled. A bale that just 2 years ago you could have bought for $2.50 is now selling for $7 and upwards.....if you can find it. We feed horses and a few cows so I am totally aware of what is and has happened in the grains and feed markets. I watch the futures markets and although I am no expert I see the trends that when one of them shoots up the others follow. Last growing season was a terrible one in the midwest for grains of all sorts. Add to this the ever increasing diversion of foodstuff grains to ethanol production and the price of not only the remaining grain stock but also everything made from it skyrockets. You may not brew with corn but when the price of corn goes up you can bet other grains will not be left far behind. Supply/Demand/Greed......whatever. And then you add in the international trade of all of the above and the increasing demands for them in China and other areas of the world.

I am not here to start a point the finger or blame this one or that one thread. All I am saying is that before you begin to put the word out on end producers you might want to consider what has happened to their costs and prices. The maltier has to buy his barley from someone. The guy growing the barley has to put ever costlier diesel in his tractors and fertilizers on his crops. And we will end up paying more at the end of the chain. Is it just this one supplier that has increased his pricing or is this a general trend that is or will soon appear in the pricing from all of them?

I applaud and support the guys that supply our hobby and am not too quick to turn them against us making it even harder and more expensive to obtain what we need to brew.

Just a few thoughts.......:)
 
CidahMastah said:
However they increased the price, so my interpretation is that they are hoping to make the same money, by selling less grain. So higher cost, less product. At the end they still make the same money, we just get less because we are home brewers.
Click to expand...
right, and that formula works only if the amount sold doesn't decrease more than the price increased. our only play at this point is to reduce the amount sold, AKA buy somewhere else. that's how we can hurt 'em (maybe).

Likwid said:
From the brewersupply website

Importantly, the “new” BSG we will continue to carry the portfolio of brands of both previously separate
companies. As we go forward, therefore, you can rely on the same inventory for your business as in the
past! The “new” BSG will also continue the old C&B policy of never selling directly to end-users—not in
person, and not online!
Click to expand...
thanks for posting that. now we know the thinking behind the decision: they want to remain loyal to their B2B customers.

Reelale said:
Can I ask where you got this information?
Click to expand...
what are you asking about, the 20% increase? they announced it to all homebrew clubs this past week.
 
Reelale said:
Can I ask where you got this information?
Click to expand...

Look at any of the recent grain group buys and you will see. In the last 30 days NCM has stopped giving wholesale prices to any "Non business". NCM has published a "Homebrewer price list" which is significantly (20%+) higher than the old wholesale price we were given for 42+ sack orders.


Personally I think the best scenario is to find small homebrew shops willing to sell base malt sacks to customers at a very reasonable markup with the knowledge that by doing so he/she will attract customers to the shop who would otherwise have ordered other items online (yeast, specialty malts, bottle caps, etc, etc).
 
CidahMastah said:
It would be interesting to know. However they increased the price, so my interpretation is that they are hoping to make the same money, by selling less grain. So higher cost, less product. At the end they still make the same money, we just get less because we are home brewers....
Click to expand...

Either that or someone got to them and made them stop selling to private home brewers/club accounts at wholesale pricing.

CMG's business is to supply raw product to breweries and LHBSs. Although the group buys are not insignificant, in that business model they must only represent a few drops in their sales bucket.

In that light, it makes little sense for a company that size to even want to handle small individual quantities shipped by Fedex, rather than pallet loads at a time on a large truck. Yet, if that's the case, someone in the company may be trying to build a career by selling peanuts at retail pricing, but that scenario is not likely.

I have the feeling someone got to them.

And it is definitely a good idea to find alternative distributors and see if we can entice them to be competitive. It also sends a message to CMG.
 
IslandLizard said:
Either that or someone got to them and made them stop selling to private home brewers/club accounts at wholesale pricing.

CMG's business is to supply raw product to breweries and LHBSs. Although the group buys are not insignificant, in that business model they must only represent a few drops in their sales bucket.

In that light, it makes little sense for a company that size to even want to handle small individual quantities shipped by Fedex, rather than pallet loads at a time on a large truck. Yet, if that's the case, someone in the company may be trying to build a career by selling peanuts at retail pricing, but that scenario is not likely.

I have the feeling someone got to them.

And it is definitely a good idea to find alternative distributors and see if we can entice them to be competitive. It also sends a message to CMG.
Click to expand...

If you Boycott CMG and buy from your LHBS (or online retailer) that gets its grain through CMG; You really did nothing but increase the orders to CMG through said Home-brew shop.

Either way you throw the ball you have to get your grain from somewhere. If that somewhere gets it grain through CMG, CMG is not effected. You would have to make sure the home brew store does not go through CMG which IMO is a bit hard to organize.

The only true resolution in my eyes are

1. Accept the new prices if they beat your current home-brew store.

For me in MD nothing i less then 70 dollars a bag (not even shipped) and online I cant get a bag for less then 64 shipped. If lived near more beer, or Midwest supplies I would just go to them but I don't.

2. Somebody registers themselves as a business and does the work free of charge and makes 0 profit in reach area. No different then last week.

This could open other problems because you are susceptible to business regulations. if somebody screws up an order for a group buy its oh well sorry next time. If your a registered business you could be attacked differently.
 
IslandLizard said:
Either that or someone got to them and made them stop selling to private home brewers/club accounts at wholesale pricing.

And it is definitely a good idea to find alternative distributors and see if we can entice them to be competitive. It also sends a message to CMG.
Click to expand...

I agree that there are more than one factors contributing to the price change.

I also agree that the only way to get competitive pricing is to make businesses compete (this is not an anti-NCM idea). It can only help us all, and NCM become more aligned with the true best pricing available for us.
 
Heard grumblings a few months ago local homebrew shop found out about the group buys and was not happy. My bet is the homebrew shops looked more into the issue and probably banned together to pressure them to stop these buys as it was hurting their bottom line big time.
 
IslandLizard said:
I got this link:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/56584482/Homebrew Catalog 1-11-13.pdf
Click to expand...


This cannot be the one. Its more than double what I have been paying for grain.


Breiss White wheat is 2.44 a lb??? You can get it cheaper than that in lbs increments at a poorly priced LHBS


I payed 60ish cents a lbs in my last buy for that and 80-90ish cents a lbs for some of the fawcett malts which are now a little less than 2 dollars.


So how is it that "normal" breiss malts are more expensive than imported floor malted malts?

If this is accurate then they have straight up priced themselves out of the market.
 
Xpertskir said:
This cannot be the one. Its more than double what I have been paying for grain.


Breiss White wheat is 2.44 a lb??? You can get it cheaper than that in lbs increments at a poorly priced LHBS


I payed 60ish cents a lbs in my last buy for that and 80-90ish cents a lbs for some of the fawcett malts which are now a little less than 2 dollars.


So how is it that "normal" breiss malts are more expensive than imported floor malted malts?

If this is accurate then they have straight up priced themselves out of the market.
Click to expand...

Exactly! NCM's homebrewer price sheet was created to FORCE hombrewers to buy from their LHBS's which buy at wholesale prices from NCM....

I work for a manufacturer and see this kind of tactic used in my industry. If we do sell directly to an end user on a rare occasion we sell at "List Price" which is usually at or higher than the end user would have paid if they bought from one of our distributors.

I can buy a bag of CM 2-row at a LHBS 30 miles from me for $42/bag + tax which is about the same as I could get it in a group buy based on the new pricing once shipping is added.
 
Another thing no one has brought up:

When you buy from your LHBS or other local malt distributor you will pay LOCAL state/city sales tax!

Your local government is ultimately benefiting from this.
 
Xpertskir said:
This cannot be the one. Its more than double what I have been paying for grain.


Breiss White wheat is 2.44 a lb??? You can get it cheaper than that in lbs increments at a poorly priced LHBS


I payed 60ish cents a lbs in my last buy for that and 80-90ish cents a lbs for some of the fawcett malts which are now a little less than 2 dollars.


So how is it that "normal" breiss malts are more expensive than imported floor malted malts?

If this is accurate then they have straight up priced themselves out of the market.
Click to expand...

Sadly that is the correct sheet. And yes I share your sentiments, which is why I wanted to get all our brains churning.

Once you get out of CM-2ROW, the prices can really fly.
 
Yep, Ive seen it before as well. This is clearly a reaction to backlash from HBS. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it, what do they care, the amount of grain they sell is the same. Now the 25% that was going through group buys will go through HBS.
 
Xpertskir said:
This cannot be the one. Its more than double what I have been paying for grain.

Breiss White wheat is 2.44 a lb???...
Click to expand...

I'm with you, the per pound prices are off the chart, especially Briess.

But to compare price you should look in column 5, "Price per bag unmilled."

Now Briess turns out to be relatively more expensive than their other brands. I can get Briess 2-row at my LHBS for $61 a sack, still no bargain. CMG wants $75 for the same, plus shipping.

CMG's prices for CM and GW are much lower ($40 and $42), still better than the cheapest base malt at any LHBS I've seen.

There should be no sales tax on (raw) grain.
 
Code: 
Briess	        New Bag	Old Bag 2-8k#	% change
Vienna	 82.96		        30.5	        172%
2-row	        75.22		        31	        142.645161290323%
2-row 60l	95.34		        42.5	        124.329411764706%
Great Western				
Vienna	 47.43		        30.5	         55.5081967213115%
2-row	        42.38		        29.5	         43.6610169491526%
2-row 60l	50.14		        39	         28.5641025641026%

my formatting stinks but if those are right that is insane.
 
For those interested in the coop thing, I found this link (http://www.ncba.coop/) which seems like a good place to start. I do know that many CPA's will meet with a prospective client for the initial hour free and provide all the info needed until tax time. I suspect lawyers do the same thing. I can't imagine the paperwork for starting a coop to be more detailed than starting a business, and in MD, its 75$ for DBA (doing business as) and easy paper work. Filing fees apply as well, but its super easy and probably does not warrant much lawyer time at all, if any.
Disclaimer: I've never started a coop
 
bmason1623 said:
When was this new policy enacted? We just took delivery of a $12,000 group buy last week.
Click to expand...

Yikes Bill, I just noticed the GW pale ale malt is 3X more expensive than we paid last order. Glad I got some when I did.
 
forstmeister said:
Yikes Bill, I just noticed the GW pale ale malt is 3X more expensive than we paid last order. Glad I got some when I did.
Click to expand...

3x, if you look in the "per pound" column, buying loose pounds.

But the "new" price sheet has different columns. To compare, look in "$/bag Whole" column.

For most malts, the price hike is roughly 30%-40% from the old list, except Briess is being priced out of the market totally.

You guys were lucky to get that big order in in time. We just missed the boat, so to speak, by a few days. No advance warning either.
 
IslandLizard said:
3x, if you look in the "per pound" column, buying loose pounds.

But the "new" price sheet has different columns. To compare, look in "$/bag Whole" column.

For most malts, the price hike is roughly 30%-40% from the old list, except Briess is being priced out of the market totally.

You guys were lucky to get that big order in in time. We just missed the boat, so to speak, by a few days. No advance warning either.
Click to expand...

When did you try to get your order in?
 
IslandLizard said:
3x, if you look in the "per pound" column, buying loose pounds.

But the "new" price sheet has different columns. To compare, look in "$/bag Whole" column.

For most malts, the price hike is roughly 30%-40% from the old list, except Briess is being priced out of the market totally.

You guys were lucky to get that big order in in time. We just missed the boat, so to speak, by a few days. No advance warning either.
Click to expand...

You're right, I overlooked that column. Still, $0.50/ lb last week to $0.80+ sucks and may affect how often I brew.
 
I'm guessing that they're protecting their higher volume customers, theLHBS.

Or there's an insurance liability issue selling direct to the public (hey, bottom feeding insurance companies and lawyers need to eat too...it's the American way!)
 
bmason1623 said:
When did you try to get your order in?
Click to expand...

claphamsa takes on the group ordering and I think he hit a snag on the 3rd when he discovered prices had gone up. From the thread, it looks that on the 9th, when he finally had the new numbers, they wouldn't accept the new order because of their new pricing "policy" for home brewers.

Possibly we have come to the point we simply cannot be "home brewers" anymore.
 
Could someone post the 2012 pricelist. I'd be more than happy tocall them and discuss this in a courteous and professional manner.
 
Weezy said:
I'm guessing that they're protecting their higher volume customers, theLHBS.

Or there's an insurance liability issue selling direct to the public (hey, bottom feeding insurance companies and lawyers need to eat too...it's the American way!)
Click to expand...

My thoughts are someone got to them. Some LHBSs have done their bit of bitching about pricing and group buys on this forum, and elsewhere. They probably colluded trying to crowd out the market with CMG's and came up with a new pricing structure that mimics LHBS grain sheets.

How could insurance play a role, we don't walk onto their property to pick up pallet orders.

In contrary, they want traffic. From the new Home Brewers price list it has the looks they want to sell malt by the pound and ship Fedex. Who in that company came up with that brilliant idea?

Hey, any of you have ideas on getting around this obstacle, be creative, and put some ideas out.

Or should we better keep it off the public boards? Who's listening in?
 

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