Making dark candi sugar

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MattHollingsworth

MattHollingsworth

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Reading around, I've found people making dark and light candi sugar by carmelizing sugar. I've also read some folks saying that when making darker candi sugar, the resulting carmelized sugar can leave too many unfermentables in the beer.

I've used carmelized sugar once. Used 400 grams, so just under a pound. Beer went from 1.070 to 1.018. But if that was regular sugar I'd expect more than ~74% attenuation. With my Belgians, I tend to shoot for 87-90% attenuation and like them that way.

So, what's the word? What's the best way to make dark candi sugar if I still want a dry Belgian?
 
You can find enough arguments about this subject on this and every other homebrew forum in the world to keep you busy reading for days.

Some people say they get flavor close to the darker products but the big stumbling block is always the difference in fermentability. Homemade products rely on caramelizing or maillard reactions, both of which leave behind unfermentable sugars. The commercially available stuff, like D2, ferments out almost entirely -- like 95% or more. So that's a big problem if you are trying to make a very dry Belgian beer.

My personal belief is that those darker syrups take unrefined beet sugar and do some processing in vacuum boilers to reduce the water content and flesh out some of those flavors. Dark syrups are described as having rum-like flavors, well, how is high quality, dark rum made? It's fermented molasses distilled to rum. They aren't starting with refined sugars and performing some mysterious boil technique to create all those flavors. My theory is widely disputed for various reasons but more or less it all sounds to me like people insisting there must be a way to do at home what sugar manufacturers, with 200 years of experience, can do with vacuum boilers and food scientists. I've tried all different techniques at home but never gotten all the way. Neither has anybody else.
 
I've used the liquid dark candi sugar from Belgium, but it doesn't taste the same as carmelized sugar, IMHO. I won't have the chance to get any any time soon, though, sadly. Only place I know to get it, Brouwland, has a 30 euro minimum for shipping to me, even if I were to order only 1 packet of dry yeast. So screw that. Worked well for me in the past, but I simply don't have easy access to it.

I've asked for a shipping quote from these guys, though:

http://www.candisyrup.com/products.html
 
I made some dark caramelized sugar last year. Inverted with lemon juice and darkened by maillard.

Delicious on it's own, it made fantastic beer that people raved about, but dry, it was not.
 
Denny said:
I have tried many different version of homemade candi syrups, but I've never tasted one that tasted like the real thing. IMO, it's worth spending the money.
Click to expand...

Must admit Ive never tasted the real deal.

Mine tasted like the finest dark caramel i have ever tasted. Stuck to your teeth like crazy.
 
Its funny how my brain and the annals of HBT seem to track with one another. I've noticed the same thing as Denny when it comes to homemade candi sugar not having the same complexities as the D2 or D180 available commercially. I've made some good Candi before that made great beer but I'm in the middle of building a recipe for a belgian dark strong and have been doing a lot of digging on the internet about making maillard reaction and carmalization and think I might be onto something that could help improve my homemade candi. It seems like there are two major things we miss when making candi sugar at home, PH and amino acid content. There seems to be a general consensus that higher PH results in more complex and "better" Candi. The amino acids are aparently what are responsible for the different flavors and we loose most of this because we typically start with refined table sugar. My hope is to increase PH by adding pickling lime to my candi and re-introduce some of the amino acids by adding some molasses or treacle since they are much less refined than table sugar.
 
mcwilcr said:
Its funny how my brain and the annals of HBT seem to track with one another. I've noticed the same thing as Denny when it comes to homemade candi sugar not having the same complexities as the D2 or D180 available commercially. I've made some good Candi before that made great beer but I'm in the middle of building a recipe for a belgian dark strong and have been doing a lot of digging on the internet about making maillard reaction and carmalization and think I might be onto something that could help improve my homemade candi. It seems like there are two major things we miss when making candi sugar at home, PH and amino acid content. There seems to be a general consensus that higher PH results in more complex and "better" Candi. The amino acids are aparently what are responsible for the different flavors and we loose most of this because we typically start with refined table sugar. My hope is to increase PH by adding pickling lime to my candi and re-introduce some of the amino acids by adding some molasses or treacle since they are much less refined than table sugar.
Click to expand...

Here's some info about how candisyrup.com does it..

http://www.candisyrup.com/faq.html

Interesting quotes...

"Simplicity is a true blonde syrup that undergoes multiple thermal stages to develop its unique flavor"

"No acids or preservatives are used at any stage in process of making any of our syrups"

"Most brewers yeast has a preference pH range of approximately 5.1 -5.5 PH. Candi Syrup, Inc's syrups are intended to have a minimal impact on wort pH to assure the best fermentability possible"

"Candi Syrup, Inc. uses only Beet sugar and a small amount of raw "Date" sugar (only in D-180) to add a rich undertone of flavor "
 
Denny said:
Here's some info about how candisyrup.com does it..

http://www.candisyrup.com/faq.html


"Most brewers yeast has a preference pH range of approximately 5.1 -5.5 PH. Candi Syrup, Inc's syrups are intended to have a minimal impact on wort pH to assure the best fermentability possible"
Click to expand...

I never do any adjustment on PH and my local water has a PH of about 7.7. Thats not excessively high but if I go adding candy syrup with even higher PH I might need to think about adding some gypsum or something to my mash later down the road. Food for thought...
 
The dark candi sugar I've used in the past, from Brouwland in Belgium, was more watery than carmelized sugar that's homemade. And tasted a lot different, IMHO.

I'm going to go ahead and order some when the time comes and just eat it on the shipping. I'll try the D180. I figure it's worth it for a one off batch of a Quad that's intended for aging. Might as well spring for it.
 
mcwilcr said:
I never do any adjustment on PH and my local water has a PH of about 7.7. Thats not excessively high but if I go adding candy syrup with even higher PH I might need to think about adding some gypsum or something to my mash later down the road. Food for thought...
Click to expand...

But what's your mah pH? That's what matters, not your water pH so much. And an acid like lactic or phosphoric works better to reduce pH unless you need the added sulfate for bitterness.
 
Denny said:
But what's your mah pH? That's what matters, not your water pH so much. And an acid like lactic or phosphoric works better to reduce pH unless you need the added sulfate for bitterness.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm not really sure what my mash ph is since I've never adjusted it based on conversations I've had with the guys at my LHBS and a couple of local commercial brewers who have all said it is not a huge issue here. I was just thinking that if I go adding ingredients with high ph I might need to consider measuring and adjusting my ph for that beer.
 
Denny said:
I have tried many different version of homemade candi syrups, but I've never tasted one that tasted like the real thing. IMO, it's worth spending the money.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with this. The real thing gives flavors that really come through in the brew. I will spend the couple of bucks for the real thing to make my brews better. D-180 is a great product.
 
I've been doing some research on this topic of homemade candi syrup and have come to the conclusion that every video or recipe I have watched and read is pretty much all wrong. Just inverting and caramelizing sugar does not produce Candi Sugar and neither does using of DAP. I think the use of DAP as a source of nitrogen was an incorrect interpretation of the Maillard reaction.

I'm convinced that Amino acids, which are responsible for the Maillard reactions, is the key to producing the dark brown color, aroma, and flavor of Candi Syrup. Some amino acids produce caramel aromas such as Glycine, some produce fruity flavors and aromas such as Serine. In fact there are probably hundreds of amino acids at work which produce the final flavour of the syrup. One consumer product mentions that is it simply just beet juice that has been boiled down into a syrup. This reminded me of how Maple Syrup is made. Maple sap comes out of the tree as a clear sweet liquid that has no maple syrup flavor. All of the color and flavor in maple syrup comes from the Maillard reaction as it is boiled down into a syrup. In fact, I have a feeling that Belgian Candi Syrup is made the same way

Trying to make the syrup from refined beet sugar just won't work as it contains no amino acids. It was all stripped out during the refining process. On the other hand the juice from sugar beets contains many amino acids. I think this is the secret. Not sure where you would get unrefined sugar beet sugar from thou. I guess you could grow your own and create a syrup out of that. I was thinking of trying to make a syrup out of Date Sugar since this also contains many amino acids and is readily available. Date sugar is dried and ground dates, so you would need to soak it and strain it first. Won't be the same as sugar beet juice, but as an experiment it’s worth a try.

Google the following papers I found
1) The Maillard Reaction Application to Confectionery Products
2) Sensory aroma from Maillard reaction of individual and combinations of amino acids with glucose in acidic conditions
 
I am not convinced that inverted caramalized sugar is "Not Good Enough" just because it isn't what the ancient Belgians use.

"Not the Same" I perfectly agree with.

I also understand wanting to replicate what belgian sugar does. NO quarrel there.

I do think that the inverted caramelized sugar has it's uses.
 
Trillium said:
I've been doing some research on this topic of homemade candi syrup and have come to the conclusion that every video or recipe I have watched and read is pretty much all wrong. Just inverting and caramelizing sugar does not produce Candi Sugar and neither does using of DAP. I think the use of DAP as a source of nitrogen was an incorrect interpretation of the Maillard reaction.

I'm convinced that Amino acids, which are responsible for the Maillard reactions, is the key to producing the dark brown color, aroma, and flavor of Candi Syrup. Some amino acids produce caramel aromas such as Glycine, some produce fruity flavors and aromas such as Serine. In fact there are probably hundreds of amino acids at work which produce the final flavour of the syrup. One consumer product mentions that is it simply just beet juice that has been boiled down into a syrup. This reminded me of how Maple Syrup is made. Maple sap comes out of the tree as a clear sweet liquid that has no maple syrup flavor. All of the color and flavor in maple syrup comes from the Maillard reaction as it is boiled down into a syrup. In fact, I have a feeling that Belgian Candi Syrup is made the same way

Trying to make the syrup from refined beet sugar just won't work as it contains no amino acids. It was all stripped out during the refining process. On the other hand the juice from sugar beets contains many amino acids. I think this is the secret. Not sure where you would get unrefined sugar beet sugar from thou. I guess you could grow your own and create a syrup out of that. I was thinking of trying to make a syrup out of Date Sugar since this also contains many amino acids and is readily available. Date sugar is dried and ground dates, so you would need to soak it and strain it first. Won't be the same as sugar beet juice, but as an experiment it’s worth a try.

Google the following papers I found
1) The Maillard Reaction Application to Confectionery Products
2) Sensory aroma from Maillard reaction of individual and combinations of amino acids with glucose in acidic conditions
Click to expand...

I agree with you to a certain extent that it is the amino acids which is the reason DAP, a derivative of amino acids, and also peptides that are responsible for the mallard reaction. I believe it is also correct that because we are all starting with refined sugar is the reason we can't seem to quite get the same flavor as D-180 as an example. I have to agree with Cheezydemon3 that just because its not exact that its no good though.

I have recently been playing around with adding some unrefined sugars to the recipe, mainly treacle and molasses to try and re-introduce some of the amino acids and peptides that are stripped in the refinement process and did get some pretty nice results. Not nice enough that I used them in my big expensive BDS but with a bit more refinement and practice I bet I could get real damn close.
 
The OP was asking about “Making Dark Candi Sugar" and inverted caramelized sugar is definitely not the same. Sure its good enough as an adjunct but not as a substitute.

Very Cool MCWILCR, you are a lot further along than I am. I read a blog somewhere of a guy who actually grew his own Sugar Beets and tried to make refined sugar. His experiment failed to make refined sugar, but I noticed that the syrup that he boiled down turned a rich dark brown/black color and looked exactly like Dark Candi Syrup. I will try to make a friendly call to a commercial sugar beet refiner to see if I can get some of their syrup before they refine it.

Diammonium phosphate (DAP) is not a derivative of amino acids. It is a salt. It is produced by reacting ammonia with phosphoric acid.

I doubt it's worth the cost to make my own, I just enjoy trying to solve a mystery and the challenge to reproduce it.
 

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