5 Gallons and need help

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DarkPhyre

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So a good buddy and I got a wild hair and decided to try cider.
I have read several threads about it but I feel more lost about making cider then I ever did with brewing beer.

Today we bought five, one gallon jugs of UV treated apple cider.
We placed all of them in the fridge and bought two bottles of Crispin cider (we both like this brand) we left about a half inch of cider left in each bottle and dumped the yeast in the bottom into a starter.

The plan is to use the yeast to make our own cider.
I am just confused of the process.
We have a 5.5 gallon better bottle and a 6 gallon glass carboy. we plan on starting the fermentation in the better bottle then racking to the glass carboy for a few months.

After reading several more threads today it seems like the 'set and forget' method isn't for cider making.
Could someone point me to, or give me pointers on how to create a great tasting cider that is sweet like crispin cider?
 
it's pretty easy actually, but i would just get a packet of yeast. ale yeasts such as nottingham and safeale04/05 are popular choices, or a white wine yeast such as champagne. you can set and forget, but you can't ferment and then rack to a larger carboy; you will have oxidation issues. in your situation i would ferment in the big one, rack to the smaller one, but you will still need to top it off with some more juice. or you can skip the secondary; it will clear in the primary. and to get a sweet cider you are going to have to kill off the yeast, which will still be waiting in the wings months later to consume whatever fermentable sugar you put back in. that usually means adding sulfite and sorbate while racking, but you could also try a pasteurization method
 
So, I could put all 5 gallons in the glass and just leave it in there the whole time? do I need to fill it up to the top or leaving the headspace ok?
 
So, I could put all 5 gallons in the glass and just leave it in there the whole time? do I need to fill it up to the top or leaving the headspace ok?

once fermentation is complete, you will need to top up.
what i did once was ferment in a carboy, then rack to bucket, clean carboy real quick, rack right back into carboy and top up to the skinny part of the neck (~3 inches below the opening. )
 
There are very few ways to reliably have a carb'ed sweet cider without kegging.
Here is my recommendation for your situation.

Get a packet of Ale yeast- Notty, S04, S05, etc.
(There is homebrew shop in Portland that has the cheapest price on dry yeast, ~$2.) Rehydrate yeast using the plain water method.
Ferment in the 6g carboy at as close to ~60F as you can get.
Pull samples daily after ~5 days, and after it suits your tastes, cold crash it.
Rack to a bottling bucket, and prime however you like. Bottle at least one in a PETE bottle. Check the firmness of the PETE bottle, and when it is soda pop firm, follow one of the bottle pasteurizing protocols for the rest of the bottles.

An alternative slightly riskier method would be to refrigerate after the PETE bottle is firm. Place the bottles in a very cold refrigerator, and never let them get warm again. There is still a chance of a bomb.

There are variations on this, like stopping the cider sweeter to use some of the excess sugar to carb so you end up with the taste you like, as well as other ways.
 
Thanks for the feedback everyone.

This making hard sweet cider seems more like an art then brewing beer.
I have read so much over the least 48 hours my head is spinning.
 
Thanks for the feedback everyone.

This making hard sweet cider seems more like an art then brewing beer.
I have read so much over the least 48 hours my head is spinning.

it truly is easier and way less time consuming than beer. at least active time.
 
thats only because people are making it more complicated than it truly is. give it a few batches and you'll see what i mean.

you can go crazy and make it very rigidly and all that jazz and it will be great, or you coudl do it basic and it will still be delicious.
 
thats only because people are making it more complicated than it truly is. give it a few batches and you'll see what i mean.

you can go crazy and make it very rigidly and all that jazz and it will be great, or you coudl do it basic and it will still be delicious.

Did you read the part about him wanting to make a sweet carbed cider similar to Crispin? First issue is stopping the yeast, and is just something to be aware of if you are used to brewing beer. Next is carbing. While this is very easy to do with a kegging setup, he bottles which makes it somewhat more complex. I outlined two of the most foolproof methods to get a sweet carbed bottle cider. The easiest is if he has fridge space to permanently store the whole batch, but I doubt that is an option. The next most complicated is to pasteurize, and a more likely option for him. Those are two of the simplest methods I can think of.

Do you have another method you propose he follows? Your only advice is "do it basic", whatever that means.
 
i didn't address that because others already had. i was imply reaasuring him that it wasn't as hard as it sounds and not to get too caught up in the various minutia of it all for his first batch.
the simplest method truly is backsweetening with an unfermentable like stevia, but i assumed he had already read one of the 300 posts about backsweetening.
no reason to get all cranky about it.
 
i didn't address that because others already had. i was imply reaasuring him that it wasn't as hard as it sounds and not to get too caught up in the various minutia of it all for his first batch.
the simplest method truly is backsweetening with an unfermentable like stevia, but i assumed he had already read one of the 300 posts about backsweetening.
no reason to get all cranky about it.

+1.. Chuckling
 
i didn't address that because others already had. i was imply reaasuring him that it wasn't as hard as it sounds and not to get too caught up in the various minutia of it all for his first batch.

So instead of reinforcing the few important things mentioned to focus on, you tell him to not worry about any of it?
I guess I just assumed, based on his post stating he wanted to get his first batch right, that he wanted some relevant guidance and information, and not just the standard RDWHAHB back patting you gave. The whole purpose of asking for advice, and this forum, is to not have to flounder through the same beginner mistakes and learning experiences others have already gone through.

the simplest method truly is backsweetening with an unfermentable like stevia, but i assumed he had already read one of the 300 posts about backsweetening.
That would have been some relevant input to discussion.
Although, even with a non-fermentable like stevia (which to me has a strange taste), you still need to stop the yeast early to leave some apple flavor, just not as early as if you want it naturally sweet or if using concentrate to sweeten. Otherwise, you just end up with something that tastes like sweetened cheap white wine.

no reason to get all cranky about it.
No reason to downplay others advice, especially by obfuscating the issue.
 
lulz, I appreciate all advise.
I understand that you can do just about anything a million different ways, this is no different.

I have only WLP 001 yeast right now, will this work, or is this a bad idea?

I haven't pitched anything yet I still have the jugs in the fridge.

I also wonder if I should pour all the juice into the carboy then let it sit for a few hours to warm it up, then pitch the yeast. seems to make the most sense.
 
sometimes people really do need a little backpatting and reassurance.
have we all become so jaded because of RDWHAHB? it actually is fairly sound advice and some things you aboslutely have to learn on your own no matter how much advice you read.

it will warm up quicker in smaller amounts rather than all mixed up, i would just let the chill get knocked off it since right now it is at fridge temps.
wlp 001 will work. it's not my first choice, but it will get the job done and leave a tasty beverage for you.
now let's all have a beer/cider/wine/ some schnapps for somebody maybe, and chill out.
 
you still need to stop the yeast early to leave some apple flavor, just not as early as if you want it naturally sweet or if using concentrate to sweeten. Otherwise, you just end up with something that tastes like sweetened cheap white wine.

oh, and in the interest of good advice, i will point out that this is inaccurate. the apple flavor does go away sometimes, depends on what yeast you use really, but comes back with age.
it will taste like sweetened cheap white wine for a while, which is exactly what sweetened white wine tastes like when it is young and not ready for consumption.
 
Should I shake up the gallon jugs and get all the stuff that settled, or just pour?

Thanks for the advise, I plan on stepping up my starter tonight then pitching sometime wednesday.

I guess it would be different if I KNEW anyone that has brewed cider before. But lets get real, I don't need backpatting, I need to know how it is done. I have no books to read and only a mix of threads with differing opinions.

Me personally, I don't like vinegar based bbq sauce, while my best friend couldn't make it any other way. So if he were to post about how to make bbq sauce and how awesome it would taste, someone like myself could reproduce his exact recipe and hate it.
 
Wow. I guess it doesn't just happen in video game forums.

it happens everywhere, since the dawn of when al gore invented teh interwebs

I remember back in the IRC days this sort of thing happening and before that, bars or the comforts of someone's couch. Nothing is new under the sun.
 
oh, and in the interest of good advice, i will point out that this is inaccurate. the apple flavor does go away sometimes, depends on what yeast you use really, but comes back with age.
it will taste like sweetened cheap white wine for a while, which is exactly what sweetened white wine tastes like when it is young and not ready for consumption.
In the interest of full disclosure- "sometimes" means usually, if you let yeast go to completion; and "comes back with age" and "for a while" generally means 6+ months.
 
lulz, I appreciate all advise.
I understand that you can do just about anything a million different ways, this is no different.

I have only WLP 001 yeast right now, will this work, or is this a bad idea?

I haven't pitched anything yet I still have the jugs in the fridge.

I also wonder if I should pour all the juice into the carboy then let it sit for a few hours to warm it up, then pitch the yeast. seems to make the most sense.

If you already have WLP001, which is ~US05 dry, it will work fine. There is just no need go out and spend the $7 for WLXXX, especially when you are near Portland where the LHBS with the cheapest prices (~$2) on dry yeast is located. WLP001 can go drier more quickly and scrub more apple flavor than the english ale yeasts like Nottingham and S04, but still turns out nice. You just have to watch the last part of the ferm. CvilleKevin, who has done many, many yeast tests, prefers hefe yeast blends. I have yet to try them, but I do like the SO4 and Notty.

Besides stopping the yeast early, there are no differences between ferming beer and cider you need to worry about for your first batch. All other beer procedures apply, so have both yeast and beer at close to your ferm temp (low 60F's works good) before pitching.

Bottling a sweet cider (without using artificial or alternative sweeteners) is the only complication you face. Do a search for "bottle pasteurizing", and you will get a good primer on how to do it. Many just put them through a dishwasher cycle with good results. What could be easier? And, you will be drinking your first batch of cider in about a month, instead of a year.

Aeration, nutrients, yeast starters, etc. are mostly personal preference, and the pros and cons are available with a search. The sugars are so simple, and OG low enough, with cider, these are not as critical as with beer.
 
so bottle age? after pasteurization?

or should I bulk age in a glass carboy.

I am just spinning in circles on what to do.

Again, I am attempting a crispin style cider. The yeast didn't kick back, I am guessing they killed it.

This is the plan as of now.

let all 5 gallons sit in garage overnight to warm up.
place all 5 into 5.5 gallon better bottle and pitch yeast (not sure if I am going to add any brown sugar, or any other ferment-able sugars)
add blow off tube and leave in garage (stays low 60's)

this is where I am lost as what would be the best choice going forward.

I want 6-7% ABV and a sweet cider taste.
SO, I am thinking checking gravity until I reach that, backsweeting for carb and let carb for a few days, then bottle pasteurize and age.

Also, I was drinking some Horbys hard cider and they say they used carb'd water which makes me wonder if I could somehow do that.
 
Again, I am attempting a crispin style cider. The yeast didn't kick back, I am guessing they killed it.
The "yeast" in the bottle may have just been apple "stuff", or they pasteurized after bottling. Either way, it's much safer to get fresh yeast.

let all 5 gallons sit in garage overnight to warm up.
place all 5 into 5.5 gallon better bottle and pitch yeast (not sure if I am going to add any brown sugar, or any other ferment-able sugars)
add blow off tube and leave in garage (stays low 60's)

You will definitely need the blow-off with 5g in the 5.5g. I would use the 6g glass carboy you have. Low temps will help prevent blow-off, but there is still the chance. The simple sugars ferment quickly. Putting it in a water bath in the garage should be ideal.

I want 6-7% ABV and a sweet cider taste.
SO, I am thinking checking gravity until I reach that, backsweeting for carb and let carb for a few days, then bottle pasteurize and age.
You can probably get away with just tasting it, but a full hydro sample will also work.

I always just leave the juice as is, but nothing wrong with shooting for a specific ABV and FG. You will have to do some calcs to estimate how "sweet" you want it to end up, 1.005-1.020 is around the range from low to high sweetness. Crispin is probably on the high end, but I am not sure. Then you can figure out, using the OG of the juice which is probably 1.040-1.060, how much sugar (or preservative free frozen apple juice concentrate) to add. You can open one jug to sample for OG, and then keep the open one cold to prevent any contamination from gaining a foothold.

You shouldn't have to age a sweet cider much, probably just enough to carb it. Use a couple of PETE soda bottles as pressure testers, then pasteurize when they are soda firm. Crack open one of the PETE bottles after chilling it (even before pasteurizing) to see what it tastes like. That will give you and idea of whether it is drinkable young, or needs some bottle aging. Keep in mind that most commercial ciders are carb'd higher than beer (closer to soda), so figure out how many volumes of CO2 you want.

Also, I was drinking some Horbys hard cider and they say they used carb'd water which makes me wonder if I could somehow do that.
Haven't heard how they do theirs, but you would need to start with some pretty sweet and strong hooch to be able to dilute it with enough carb'd water to taste fizzy and get you buzzed. Replicating this at home, there is also the gusher issue with adding carb'd water to sugary solutions.
 
so bottle age? after pasteurization?

or should I bulk age in a glass carboy.
Bulk aging a sweet cider in a carboy is tricky. You would have to rack very carefully, and then keep tabs on it for the first few days to make sure it doesn't start back up. It is much simpler and safer for your first attempt to go straight to the bottle, wait for carb, and then pasteurize, which would have to do even if you did bulk age before bottling. The biggest difference between beer and cider, especially sweet cider, is that the yeast want to go lower than you want them to.

After you get a few batches under your belt, I agree with the guy (Carter?) from the other thread about trying a drier cider (~1.006) at some point. Keep some of sweet stuff around to lube up the ladies, though.
 
I forgot about at least one of your questions-
Yes, you can pour the entire contents of the cider jug, sludge and all, into the fermenter. It won't hurt anything, and you won't lose as much volume. It will solidify on the bottom again, along with even more sludge and yeast.

After it gets to the FG/sweetness you want, you will have to cold crash it at ~36F (or colder). It won't go any drier while in the fridge, and the longer it sits the clearer the cider and tighter the yeast cake gets. This will make racking to the bottling bucket easier. When first crashed, the sludge on the bottom of the carboy can be like silt on a lake bottom, and one wrong move stirs up a massive cloud. If some gets into the bottling bucket, it won't hurt anything taste-wise. Like clear beer, it's mainly for looks.

After carb'd, cold crashing the bottles for a few days may help prevent burst bottles while pasteurizing. All just theory on my part though, based on the neck/dead space and liquid pressure not being equalized with a sweet cider since it is still actively ferm'ing, unlike beer where you can let it sit and equalize after the carb'ing is finished. You can check with one of the gurus in the pasteurizing threads.
 
I have an OG of 1.064 I have a target of 1.02

I normally could place it in the garage to get ~60 degree temps, but we are near/@freezing outside which is well below average this time of year.
So its in my house which has a high of 68
 
update: The yeast started quickly and I had a great fermentation in the morning. I took a reading 18hours in and its gone down 6 points already, I'll be taking another around the same time tomorrow.
 
things are going nice so far.
last reading 2 days ago, was 1.031. it still ticking downwards just slowly. I wonder if the ale yeast has something to do w/that.
Being afraid of the head space I added one more gallon of cider to just below/at the neck of the carboy.


Thinking of coldcrashing at around 1.02/1.015 then bottle then let carb up then pasteurize.
 
things are going nice so far.
last reading 2 days ago, was 1.031. it still ticking downwards just slowly. I wonder if the ale yeast has something to do w/that.
Being afraid of the head space I added one more gallon of cider to just below/at the neck of the carboy.

Thinking of coldcrashing at around 1.02/1.015 then bottle then let carb up then pasteurize.
You should be good to go, as long as you catch it where you want it. The sweet ciders are usually drinkable a couple of weeks after crashing when kegged and forced, so add maybe another week or so for bottling.

The ale yeasts are slower than the wine yeasts, from what I read. There are so many strains available now that I am sure there is some overlap, what with all the new turbo strains, etc. The nutrient levels and initial health play a significant role as well.

No reason to worry about head space as long as it is fermenting. For aging after racking, yes. Watch out for a late krausen. I have had that happen before, and that is when it will blow. If you see it starting to form, just stick it in the garage (cold) for a day to slow it. Also watch for any increase in activity, because I would have thought it would have been down to 1.020 in a week, or less, at high 60s. If it kicks into high gear, it could begin to drop SG rapidly.

I assume you have found Papper's bottle pasteurizing thread. That should get you the rest of the way.
 
So I racked last night and put some cider into a sprite bottle.
Today, the bottle is hard if not harder then a shaken up bottle of soda. So, I decided to pasteurize in bottle.
On a side note, I wish I would of racked to secondary, soo much lees even each bottle has a fair amount (16th to 1/8 inch)
I am also going to just cold crash 7 22oz bottles to see if there is a significant taste difference.

The first bottle and anytime I stopped the siphon/restarted I put into the fridge w/o a cap. I let it crash overnight and it tastes very well. I am super happy with the taste.

Thanks CWI for all your help!
 
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