20 lb of sugar and a jar of yeast nutrient

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troy2000 said:
I believe the Belgians use beet sugar simply because it's cheap and available there, not because there's any detectable difference between it and cane sugar.
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That's true. Cane sugar would do about the same thing. The point was that their sugar might be alkaline from the processing and ours isn't. And if it has traces of protein in it, either from the beets or from the bonechar, it has everything it needs for browning and caramelization.

This is all theory. I'll put it to practice real soon and see if it washes-out. :) Tomorrow is my wife's birthday, so I won't get to experiment until Saturday or Sunday.

I've seen too many videos and blogs with people boiling sugar and a little citric acid or potassium bitartrate for *hours* just to get to a light amber without much flavor. I think we are doing it wrong. First I started to go the burnt sugar route, but the DAP thing looks a lot closer -- but maybe not quite there yet.

I have no idea about adding the wheat flour. Other people use DME to get a little protein. I don't have any DME, and flour has twice the protein so it won't take as much. If it works, that's my contribution.
 
troy2000 said:
I believe the Belgians use beet sugar simply because it's cheap and available there, not because there's any detectable difference between it and cane sugar.
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Exactly, beets grow well in European climates (especially up here in Scandinavia). There is only a .05% difference between "beet sugar" and "cane sugar". I would actually be surprised if cane sugar was sold anywhere in Europe.
 
The candi syrup manufacturers are secretive about the process because it's extremely simple. The source of nitrogen or amino acids you use makes a big difference in the flavor, though.
 
orangehero said:
The candi syrup manufacturers are secretive about the process because it's extremely simple. The source of nitrogen or amino acids you use makes a big difference in the flavor, though.
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z-bob said:
Real Belgian candi sugar is supposed to be made from beet sugar with no additives.
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They use date sugar too and I'm guessing at a higher rate with the darker syrups. Using date sugar (instead of DAP) is something no one here has tried yet.
 
z-bob said:
I've seen too many videos and blogs with people boiling sugar and a little citric acid or potassium bitartrate for *hours* just to get to a light amber without much flavor. I think we are doing it wrong....
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Well, somebody's doing it wrong. :)

I usually make the candi for a 5 gal batch while I'm mashing - in a cast-iron pan with a pound of sugar, enough water to get it wet, a squirt of lemon juice, a good thermometer and a lot of stirring. It takes me less than half an hour, not hours, to reach the dark amber stage.
 
z-bob said:
Sorry for such a long previous post. :eek:

Here's what I came up with, combining everything I read on the Internet today. I hope it works:

UNTESTED RECIPE FOR DARK CANDI SYRUP​
Combine 1 pound sugar, 1 rounded tsp bread flour, and 1/2 cup water in a heavy saucepan. Heat to 255-275°F (use a candy thermometer) and hold at that temperature for 20 minutes. [this hold time is for some of the sugar to invert]

Add 2M sodium hydroxide solution a drop at a time to start the browning reaction. [I don't know how many drops yet] There should be an almost immediate color change...
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I ended up with something usable, but it's not very dark. Has a good toasty and marshmallowy smell to it.

It took forever to get it to 250 degrees because it kept foaming up and wanted to boil over. I was able to hold it at 255 for a while (that's when the marshmallow smell started) but it nearly boiled over and i had to stir it down with my thermometer. At that point it all suddenly crystallized. (it was impressive to see) The resulting dry sugar was a very light tan.

I added maybe an ounce of water and brought it back to a boil. Shaking the pan instead of stirring when I needed to knock the foam down. When it started to darken again, I added 2 cc's of 2 molar sodium hydroxide solution and stirred that in. It quickly turned a nice medium brown. (I was going for red-amber) It still had undissolved sugar crystals from the previous trouble and I was afraid it was going to seize up again, so I turned it off and added some water (I don't know, about 6 ounces) and put the lid on.

I'm not going to call this a success or a failure; it was a little of both. I need to go back and simmer it a bit to dissolve the last of the sugar crystals, then pour it in a canning jar to brew with next weekend.

I think the starch is what caused the foaming problems.
 
I like to make pralines around Christmastime, and after reading this, I had an epiphany to use pralines in the brew kettle. Pralines have brown sugar, condensed milk, butter, vanilla, perhaps bourbon and always pecans. The mixture is brought to the soft ball stage, which is ~242ºF. I wonder what impact the condensed milk, butter and vanilla will have.
I'm thinking of using this in a dubbel. Any thoughts?
 
macdaddymike said:
I like to make pralines around Christmastime, and after reading this, I had an epiphany to use pralines in the brew kettle. Pralines have brown sugar, condensed milk, butter, vanilla, perhaps bourbon and always pecans. The mixture is brought to the soft ball stage, which is ~242ºF. I wonder what impact the condensed milk, butter and vanilla will have.
I'm thinking of using this in a dubbel. Any thoughts?
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fat is usually a no go for beer
 
I tried snickasaurus' method. Followed recipe for 290 dark Amber. Boiled it to the 290, added in the water, boiled it back up to 240. Then put in a cold water bath for a bit and put into glass jars. Then it set up quite hard. Anyone know what I missed to make it stay a syrup?
 
SnickASaurusRex said:
So do I really have to use brewers yeast or will my moms sourdough junk work?

No really...

I just blew through 20 lbs of sugar and a jar of DAP yeast nutrient trying to perfect my caramelized "Candi Syrup" recipe. and this is what I came up with...

Deep Amber (290F)
-Deep amber with full red colors. Raisins and plums are the dominant flavors with a hint of toast and coffee. Some rummy and mildly woody flavors. Strong complex caramels are present. It is a sophisticated sweetness with a robust, full characteristic. This is my favorite.

2 Lbs Sugar
1 Cup Water
2 – 1/2 tsp DAP
1 – 1/2 Cup Water

Happy sugar making and good brewing.
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Hello SnickASaurusRex, I know this is an old post but have a question I hope you don't mind answering??

For KingBrian's Caramel Amber Ale recipe, it calls for half a batch of your Caramel syrup. I reduced the sugar to 1 lb, the water to 1/2 cup but I put the full 2-1/2 tsp of DAP in the solution. Does that hurt anything?? It seems to look about right but don't know if that changes the complexity or makeup of the syrup?? What do you think??

Caramel Syrup.jpg
 
BTW, When I taste it, it's not sweet like I thought it would be and it leaves a dryness in my mouth after it dissolves. Is that normal or is that from the excessive DAP in the solution??
 
For anyone interested, I made another batch with the stated amount of DAP and the dry aftertaste is gone and it is somewhat sweeter. So too much DAP does affect the results.
 
Dannost said:
Soft ball stage is exactly what Snickasaurus said to bring it back up to -
240. I assumed the DAP changed the make up somehow. Although it
was harder than a soft ball. I probably should have reduced the final temp. a couple of degrees to adjust for elevation above sea level. Would that make that much difference?
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There is a fairly fine line between softball and a harder set. If your thermometer is a few degrees off, it could push your caramel just past the softball stage. Next time, shoot for 135 and see what you get.

BTW, I did the same thing and ended up with a hard set. I had to heat it up a bit and swish some boiling wort around in it in order to get it all into the boil. It is still usable, just a little more work.
 
Has anyone thought to add a little bit of vanilla extract for more flavor? I know most of the flavor is supposed to come from the converted sugar, but it seems to me that adding some vanilla would enhance the flavor. :)
 
Newsman said:
Has anyone thought to add a little bit of vanilla extract for more flavor? I know most of the flavor is supposed to come from the converted sugar, but it seems to me that adding some vanilla would enhance the flavor. :)
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I guess anything's worth a try!? For some reason, vanilla extract does not conjure up good beer flavor thoughts in my head??

Probably don't need to put it in the caramel, just add it during the boil. You try it first! ;)
 
jbb3 said:
I guess anything's worth a try!? For some reason, vanilla extract does not conjure up good beer flavor thoughts in my head??

Probably don't need to put it in the caramel, just add it during the boil. You try it first! ;)
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I've added vanilla to an imperial milk stout. Tasted pretty good. :)
 
Like a lot of people who ended up on this thread I'm planning on brewing a Caramel Amber Ale.
I just finished making the Deep Amber version and used 2 - 1/2 tsps of Wyeast Nutrient and also added 1/4 tsp of pure Citric Acid powder.
Not sure if the acid was needed but it tastes good anyway.
Will brew the beer in 2 days time but I made too much so I need to figure out what I will do with the rest.
Can I keep it for a few weeks and heat it back up if it starts to separate or go hard?

I'd like to do a Leffe Radieuse clone and use this syrup in it.
 
Shenanigans said:
Like a lot of people who ended up on this thread I'm planning on brewing a Caramel Amber Ale.
I just finished making the Deep Amber version and used 2 - 1/2 tsps of Wyeast Nutrient and also added 1/4 tsp of pure Citric Acid powder.
Not sure if the acid was needed but it tastes good anyway.
Will brew the beer in 2 days time but I made too much so I need to figure out what I will do with the rest.
Can I keep it for a few weeks and heat it back up if it starts to separate or go hard?

I'd like to do a Leffe Radieuse clone and use this syrup in it.
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It'll keep for a while, and if it gets hard, that's no really a problem. As the OP says, it's also great for putting in your coffee or anywhere else you would use any kind of sweet syrup.
 
I tried this numerous times these syrups, work great - I always go after flavor but I was wondering anyone can tell me what would be the right match for D90 ? I need to use it in a recipe and I don't know how to match it.
 
theQ said:
I tried this numerous times these syrups, work great - I always go after flavor but I was wondering anyone can tell me what would be the right match for D90 ? I need to use it in a recipe and I don't know how to match it.
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I tried to copy D90 or D180 and failed I dont think you can match the flavor or fermentability. I tried homemade syrup three times and couldn't get it to ferment out or get the classic dark fruit flavors like bought syrups. If you figure it out let me know
 
jtp137 said:
I tried to copy D90 or D180 and failed I dont think you can match the flavor or fermentability. I tried homemade syrup three times and couldn't get it to ferment out or get the classic dark fruit flavors like bought syrups. If you figure it out let me know
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I made the 265F and 300F versions and they fermented just fine.
I will buy a D90 and do a side by side comparison while I do my onw syrup.

Anyone tried to do the syrup using brown sugar ??? Is it more intense does the molasses burn ?
 
I made the #5 recipe today. It is amazing tasting. Raisins and a bit of tartness. Looking forward to trying it in a Dark Strong Belgian.

Thanks SnickASaurusRex
 
theQ said:
I made the 265F and 300F versions and they fermented just fine.
I will buy a D90 and do a side by side comparison while I do my onw syrup.

Anyone tried to do the syrup using brown sugar ??? Is it more intense does the molasses burn ?
Click to expand...

I've never used brown sugar, but i have used turbinado/demerara sugar before and i thought it had a better flavor profile then the times i made it using plain white sugar. I only make these recipes with turbinado now.
 
Anyone ever used this syrup for bottle conditioning? I made a 2lb batch but only used 1lb in the beer so was wondering if I could use some of the leftovers for conditioning.
 
I made this for the first time last night. I kept the heat so low that it took about an hour and fifteen minutes to get to 260F, the thing is the color and flavor resembles the 270-280F for OPs earlier posts. I figure my thermometer is off a bit, but now I'm wondering does the longer cook time result in a darker product? Not that I'm too worried, the result was delicious.

Shenanigans: I use the krausening method for bottle conditioning and did not have enough volume of wort to save to get to the correct carb level so I'm going to use my leftovers. I'll let you know how it goes, but I don't see any issue as it should be pretty close to 100% fermentable.
 
troglodytes said:
Shenanigans: I use the krausening method for bottle conditioning and did not have enough volume of wort to save to get to the correct carb level so I'm going to use my leftovers. I'll let you know how it goes, but I don't see any issue as it should be pretty close to 100% fermentable.
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Cool I made a batch of the 290F about two weeks ago and the Caramel Amber Ale I brewed with it was down to 1.008 after about 10 days so I guess it is indeed highly fermentable. My beer is ready now so I'll probably bottle it on Sunday with some of the rest. I'll aim for 2.6 instead of 2.5 volumes just to be sure.
 
troglodytes said:
I made this for the first time last night. I kept the heat so low that it took about an hour and fifteen minutes to get to 260F, the thing is the color and flavor resembles the 270-280F for OPs earlier posts. I figure my thermometer is off a bit, but now I'm wondering does the longer cook time result in a darker product? Not that I'm too worried, the result was delicious.

Shenanigans: I use the krausening method for bottle conditioning and did not have enough volume of wort to save to get to the correct carb level so I'm going to use my leftovers. I'll let you know how it goes, but I don't see any issue as it should be pretty close to 100% fermentable.
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It may darken a bit more with longer cook times, but the main parameter that drives color is temperature. Since there's still some evaporation, by adding small amounts of water (teaspoons) during the cooking process one can keep the temp right on 260°F (or whatever you choose). The slower it cooks the less evaporates, and the more flavor develops.

I made a batch of "Belgian" candi sugar syrup at 260°F, basically inverted sugar, by using and acid (phosphoric) instead of lime. This is a different product than what you used here. The 2nd trial was nice, light, and spot on, keeping heat very low and at the right temp for 20-30 minutes. The first one came out way too dark as the temp rose above 280 for a while, darkening quickly.
 
jjp36 said:
I've never used brown sugar, but i have used turbinado/demerara sugar before and i thought it had a better flavor profile then the times i made it using plain white sugar. I only make these recipes with turbinado now.
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Would you say the 290F is close to the D90 ? What's your take on that comparison ? Do they compare ?

Also where from you get the Turbinado sugar ?
 
theQ said:
Would you say the 290F is close to the D90 ? What's your take on that comparison ? Do they compare ?

Also where from you get the Turbinado sugar ?
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I think the 290 compares pretty favorably in my mind. I use the 290F in every quad/dubbel I make, and they always have nice dark fruit notes and finish nice and dry. I've entered them in several comps and never had any judge be able to pick out that the candi sugar was homemade. They always score in the mid-upper 30s and several have taken home medals.

This is the sugar i usually use. I have also used their organic sugar before with good results
 
jjp36 said:
I think the 290 compares pretty favorably in my mind. I use the 290F in every quad/dubbel I make, and they always have nice dark fruit notes and finish nice and dry. I've entered them in several comps and never had any judge be able to pick out that the candi sugar was homemade. They always score in the mid-upper 30s and several have taken home medals.

This is the sugar i usually use. I have also used their organic sugar before with good results
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Thanks a lot! I'd do that. I did a 290 once, was really nice. I am thinking to add 1lb of dates sugar to it. That would bring in some really nice notes.
 
theQ said:
I am thinking to add 1lb of dates sugar to it. That would bring in some really nice notes.
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^^^ This.

I think that's what we're missing here. I mean this candi syrup is great but I think adding date sugar would take it to the next level.
 
I have made this syrup using regular granulated white sugar from the grocery store and Baker's Ammonia (ammonium carbonate) from the health food store.

I cooked it using the method of adding some water and reheating a couple of times to finish it at 240F as in Sugar #5

It came out dark brown, almost black, consistency of corn syrup and a nice caramelly flavour with a touch of tartness, no burned flavour at all.

I used it last weekend to make a Black IPA.

White refined sugar is sucrose and is the same whether the source is beet or cane.
 

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