conflicting advice

I know there is a lot of info here regarding starters, and I have researched a lot of it, but some of it can be a bit confusing.

I am also getting conflicting advice from both of what I consider viable sources.

After a several year hiatus from brewing, I am trying to brew an Oktoberfest Lagar using an extract recipe with specialty grains to boot.

I am wanting to build a starter, and have had some issues: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/stuck-starter-77775/


I think I know what happened there, and I'm pretty sure that the starter is not pitch worthy.

Anyway, I have more of the liquid yeast, and want to start over. So, I will build a much bigger starter to begin with, pitch the yeast, and let run for a couple of days before brew day.

BUT, I have one person telling me to bring the yeast to room temp, get the starter within a few degrees of the yeast and pitch. Let it run at room temp, 65 to 70 degrees for a couple of days, and then brew and pitch at that temp.

Another source is convinced that the last starter I built was fine since it showed action unitil I put in the lagering fridge. He believes the fast chill shocked the yeast. So his advice is to leave the yeast in the lager fridge, chill the starter to this temp, 50-55 degrees, pitch and build the starter at this temp.

Reasearch here, and other places, has shown me both as a possibility. Its a little confusing.

Is one better than the other for developing healthy yeast? Which would YOU do?

And as a second, when I do brew, at what temp will I want to pitch the starter, and do I want to leave it out for awhile before bringing it down to lagar temps?

Its funny, cause the last batch I did before I quit for awhile was 4 years ago, it was a lagar and turned out great. I don't remember any of these issues, but I also don't think I used a starter. As a matter of fact, when digging through the back room to find all my stuff this week I actually found a 6'r of this stuff still in the bottle leftover, and in a cardboard box under a bunch of storage stuff. It shouldn't have ever been in any temp extremes, so I thought I should give it a try! It was GREAT! a little much carbonation, but man it tasted great, considering it was 4 years old!

Thanks for any, and all advice! I am very glad I found this site :rockin:

I just brewed an Oktoberfest last weekend. What I do for my lagers is that I make a 1 gallon starter at room temp, and then the night before I brew, I put the starter in the fridge to crash out the yeast. Then I decant off the spent wort and pitch the yeast at the bottom.

Thanks Prof,

No problems "shocking" the yeast by putting it in the fridge? Do you let it completly ferment before you put it in the fridge?

Oh, and how much water/LME do you use, and how long to boil?


Sorry, for all the questions, but just new to the whole starter thing, and am getting so much info its a little confusing.

Professor Frink said:

I just brewed an Oktoberfest last weekend. What I do for my lagers is that I make a 1 gallon starter at room temp, and then the night before I brew, I put the starter in the fridge to crash out the yeast. Then I decant off the spent wort and pitch the yeast at the bottom.

Click to expand...

I do basically the same thing, except I get my starter size from Mr Malty, go to "pitching rate calculator" if interested. And I always pitch at or very near fermentation temp.

I type slow... if you wait until it's done fermenting, then "shocking" the yeast shouldn't be a problem, they're going to sleep anyway. And the prefered starter gravity is around 1.040, about 1lb per gallon of LME will get you close enough at 1.036, with DME it will be about 1.044.

BarleyWater said:

I do basically the same thing, except I get my starter size from Mr Malty, go to "pitching rate calculator" if interested. And I always pitch at or very near fermentation temp.

Click to expand...

So, you are saying to pitch at lagar fermentation temps? so the 50-55 range? then let it run from there? how long will a starter take to complete at these temps?

See, this is the confusing part to me. maybe its hard to completely mess it up, but I just want to do it as right as I can.

BarleyWater said:

I type slow... if you wait until it's done fermenting, then "shocking" the yeast shouldn't be a problem, they're going to sleep anyway. And the prefered starter gravity is around 1.040, about 1lb per gallon of LME will get you close enough at 1.036, with DME it will be about 1.044.

Click to expand...

Thanks! Now THAT is some helpful advice glad I picke up that extra LME today!

Ceedubya said:

So, you are saying to pitch at lagar fermentation temps? so the 50-55 range? then let it run from there? how long will a starter take to complete at these temps?

See, this is the confusing part to me. maybe its hard to completely mess it up, but I just want to do it as right as I can.

Click to expand...

Make the starter at room temp just the same as any other starter, then cool it down when it's done and decant as above. When pitching (adding to the wort), pitch at lager fermentation temps, around 50.

Sounds like you and the proffesor are on the same page as friend one. Thats three votes for starter at room temp.

Thanks to all for the help, I will be sure to post the final results.

The rule of thumb is to make the starter at room temp if you are going to chill and decant off the beer.

I chill my wort and pitch a couple degrees below my fermentation temp.

I've made lager starters at the same temp as the final beer but it takes much longer for the yeast to multiply.

Professor Frink said:

I just brewed an Oktoberfest last weekend. What I do for my lagers is that I make a 1 gallon starter at room temp, and then the night before I brew, I put the starter in the fridge to crash out the yeast. Then I decant off the spent wort and pitch the yeast at the bottom.

Click to expand...

that is basically what I do too, except I don't usually make a whole gallon - making a gallon is probably better though

I've read that some who make lagers pitch at a warmer temperature, and then bring the temperature down after fermentation starts. I know that it takes a long time to change the temperature in 5 gallons of beer, though, so my thinking is that fermentation would be 1/2 done before the temperature actually got to 50 degrees.

What I always do, making ales or lagers, is pitch at fermentation temperatures. Just like if you were making an ale, you wouldn't pitch at 85 degrees, then bring it down to fermentation temperatures if you wanted a nice clean tasting beer, you wouldn't pitch a lager at 70 and bring it down 20 degrees.

For lagers, I allow a big, one gallon starter to ferment out (room temperature is fine- you're propagating yeast, not making beer) then put it in the fridge. On brew day, I bring the wort to 50 degrees and while that is happening, I take the starter out of the fridge and decant the spent wort. When the starter is approximately 46-48 degrees, I pitch it into 50 degree wort. That slightly warmer wort temperature makes the yeast happy- and fermentation starts fairly quickly. The key is to pitch the yeast into slightly warmer wort. Like was mentioned earlier, you don't want to shock the yeast.

Happy, unstressed yeast make the best beers, whether it's an ale or a lager. To me, it just makes sense to pitch at fermentation temperatures.

Palmer in his book:
How to Brew - By John Palmer - When is My Starter Ready to Pitch
writes about two cases:

1. Pitching active starter, in high krausen phase. In this case starter wort gravity and temperature must be similar to the wort in the fermenter.

2. If you let the starter fully ferment, and the yeast settle down, they have accumulated glycogen reserves, and that allows them to accomodate to different conditions. In this case you can pitch to different wort. I do it this way, in brew day I take the starter from the fridge, and wake the yeast with fresh wort from boil kettle, cooled to proper temperature.

About temperature: I grow lager starters at room temperature. On the forum I saw suggestions, that growing them at lager temperatures gives better results, they are better trained to the job. I will try it this season.

"1. Pitching active starter, in high krausen phase. In this case starter wort gravity and temperature must be similar to the wort in the fermenter."

Dan Gordon also recommends this method. I've tried it once or twice. The starter takes some more work, but it takes off like gangbusters. You have to basically make a mini batch of your beer to avoid any off flavors, but the yeast sure are happy when you toss them in.