secondary fermenting in a water jug?

Can I secondary in a blue spring water bottle? the 5 gallon types you see in the office?

If you need or want then you can to but it's better not to.

Can any one else point to the other threads?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/5-gallon-dear-park-water-jug-44637/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/5-gallon-water-jug-carboy-75764/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/5-gallon-water-buckets-19076/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/culligan-water-bottle-57828/

This comes up often, so you can read the opinions and decide. I checked out the jugs where I work- they are #7 which is now under fire for being dangerous even for holding water (from trustedmd.com):

To be certain that you are choosing a bottle that does not leach, check the recycling symbol on your bottle. If it is a #2 HDPE (high density polyethylene), or a #4 LDPE (low density polyethylene), or a #5 PP (polypropylene), your bottle is fine. The type of plastic bottle in which water is usually sold is usually a #1, and is only recommended for one time use. Do not refill it. Better to use a reusable water bottle, and fill it with your own filtered water from home and keep these single-use bottles out of the landfill.

Unfortunately, those fabulous colourful hard plastic lexan bottles made with polycarbonate plastics and identified by the #7 recycling symbol, may leach BPA. Bisphenol A is a xenoestrogen, a known endocrine disruptor, meaning it disturbs the hormonal messaging in our bodies. Synthetic xenoestrogens are linked to breast cancer and uterine cancer in women, decreased testosterone levels in men, and are particularly devastating to babies and young children. BPA has even been linked to insulin resistance and Type 2 Diabetes. For more of the science on the effects of BPA on our endocrine system etc. see these studies: Environmental Health Perspectives Journal. Nalgene, the company that manufactures the lexan water bottles also makes #2 HDPE bottles in the same sizes and shapes, so we have a viable alternative.

Unfortunately, most plastic baby bottles and drinking cups are made with plastics containing Bisphenol A. In 2006 Europe banned all products made for children under age 3 containing BPA, and as of Dec. 2006 the city of San Franscisco followed suit. In March 2007 a billion-dollar class action suit was commenced against Gerber, Playtex, Evenflo, Avent, and Dr. Brown's in Los Angeles superior court for harm done to babies caused by drinking out of baby bottles and sippy cups containing BPA. So, to be certain that your baby is not exposed, use glass bottles.

Dang Yooper, that scared the crap out of me! Thanks for posting it. Now I have to go home and look at all of the sippy cups we have at home for our little one.

bull8042 said:

Dang Yooper, that scared the crap out of me! Thanks for posting it. Now I have to go home and look at all of the sippy cups we have at home for our little one.

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Sorry to scare you- that wasn't my intent! It was all over the news about 6 months ago, and baby bottles all tend to be #7. For us adults, it's "probably" not as harmful, according to the reading I've done. We've tossed all our Nalgene bottles, and the extra water bottles we've been hauling around.

Anyway, for fermentation vessels, I'd recommend glass or a #2 hard plastic fermenter.

Thanks Yooper.

I'll have to look if there is a FAQ for this.

Edit: There is now.

ok thanks wasn't sure if they would be able to handle it, either from contaminates in plastic or alcohol affecting plasctic.

its a spring water jug clear blue

I used the clear blue water bottles as a primary for a few years, but I never left the wort/must in the bottle long enough to notice any adverse effects it had on my finished product.
During the past month I have been very busy and left the must in the bottles longer than I would have preferred... probably 3-4 weeks. When I racked from the water bottles (#3 by the way), I noticed that the must in each one of them had really bad tastes in them that I had never encountered before.
Like I said, using them for a week or two was not a problem... 3 to 4 weeks was a problem. I figure the yeast got oxygen due to the apparent permeability of the type of plastic used in these bottles.
I have since retired these bottles and will never use them again. I have a 6.5 gallon P.E.T. carboy that is okay, but from here on out I will buy only glass carboys.
Lesson learned.
Bill

The blue rigid 2 1/2 - 5 gallon water bottles, like those you commonly see in office buildings will have Bisphenol A in them. Just like the baby bottles. Which is why glass baby bottles are making a comeback, at least in alternative foods and living community. http://www.ewg.org/node/21540

Whenever you can use glass that's going to be better, though it may be more inconvenient. It won't leech into your liquid.

Solar said:

The blue rigid 2 1/2 - 5 gallon water bottles, like those you commonly see in office buildings will have Bisphenol A in them. Just like the baby bottles. Which is why glass baby bottles are making a comeback, at least in alternative foods and living community. http://www.ewg.org/node/21540

Whenever you can use glass that's going to be better, though it may be more inconvenient. It won't leech into your liquid.

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Umm..

Recycling code 1: PETE - Polyethylene
Recycling code 2: HDPE - High density Polyethylene.

Most water bottles are made out of this stuff now (Absopure, etc.), and not Polycarbonate.

tamoore said:

Umm..

Recycling code 1: PETE - Polyethylene
Recycling code 2: HDPE - High density Polyethylene.

Most water bottles are made out of this stuff now (Absopure, etc.), and not Polycarbonate.

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Yeah that's why I say use glass. polycarbonate was what I was lookin for in terms of the Bisphenol A culprit.

But I try to drink from glass no matter what. Glass > plastic.

Solar said:

Yeah that's why I say use glass. polycarbonate was what I was lookin for in terms of the Bisphenol A culprit.

But I try to drink from glass no matter what. Glass > plastic.

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Bisphenol A isn't used in Polyethylene. Polyethylene is what the container your milk comes in is made out of.

I like drinking from a glass as well, but PET is safe.

I just can’t help myself; I have to respond to this thread. But first, my bias – I am an organic chemist employed by a company in the plastics industry, so I am not chemophobic, and I don’t automatically distrust anything made of plastic. However, I will admit I prefer stainless steel when I can afford it. Now, let’s start with the recycling codes on the bottom of bottles, because some of them have been mis-identified in this thread. The numbers range from 1 to 7. Each number refers to a different recyclable plastic.

1 is for PET or PETE – polyethylene terephalate, commonly known as polyester. Despite the name, this plastic is not polyethylene, or related to polyethylene. This is the plastic used in soft drink bottles.

2 is for HDPE - high density polyethylene. This is one of the most common plastics, along with its cousin, low density polyethylene. HDPE is used in milk bottles.

3 is for PVC – polyvinyl chloride, commonly known as vinyl. This is used in some juice bottles and in PVC water pipe. Some of us use PVC pipe in our mash tun manifolds, and most use plasticized PVC tubing for siphon hoses and beer dispensing lines.

4 is for LDPE – low density polyethylene. This is commonly used in plastic sandwich bags, trash bags and plastic shopping bags.

5 is for PP – polypropylene. Commonly used in dairy product containers like yoghurt and cottage cheese containers. Also often used in the inner liners of the coolers we use for mash tuns.

6 is for PS – polystyrene. Commonly used in foam coffee cups and fast food containers.

7 is for “other plastics” most commonly ABS (Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene) and PC (polycarbonate), but any other recyclable plastic not in classes 1 through 6 could be labeled with 7. So, don’t assume that 7 automatically implies polycarbonate.

None of this is controversial, I hope. But, the next part is. In the context of homebrewing, most of these plastics come in food grade versions that are compliant with US FDA regulations. Some people take comfort in that, and use them happily; others are less trusting and are concerned about residual chemicals that could leach out of the plastic container and into the food (or beer) they come in contact with.

The most controversial plastic these days is PC, polycarbonate. This is because of the fears about bisphenol A, a monomer used to make PC. The fear is that the Bis A is an endocrine disruptor and might cause a long list of problems, mainly developmental. Frankly, I think the evidence is pretty weak for this, and the issue has been blown out of proportion by the chemophobes and environmentalists. If there is an issue with Bis A being an endocrine disruptor, then it is babies and children who are at risk. Those of us old enough to be homebrewing are fully developed (physically, and sexually if not emotionally) and are not at risk of being poisoned by using PC containers for beer making. PC is the only plastic that Bisphenol A is used in. The other place Bis A is used is as a monomer for epoxy can coatings, typically “tin cans” which are really steel cans, and beer cans.

Plastic number 3, PVC, was controversial in then 1970s due to its residual vinyl chloride content, but that has ceased to be an issue because PVC makers figured out how to strip it out before the plastic was made into articles. Now most of the fuss over rigid PVC is related to its incineration which may create and release dioxins. Flexible PVC does have its own controversy, over the toxicology of the phthalate plasticizers used to make the normally rigid PVC floppy. Sort of a chemical anti-Viagra I guess. Phthalates are also suspected of being endocrine disruptors, but again the evidence is disputable in my opinion, and like Bisphenol A, the main concerns are for developing babies and children.

Generally speaking the other plastics have few or no “chemicals of concern” for us to worry about. They do have some strengths and weaknesses in regards to their usefulness in beer making. Most of them are poor oxygen barriers. That is the main reason we counsel folks not to use them for long term storage of fermented beer. The exception to this is the type of PET used in Better Bottles, which was chosen because it does have good oxygen barrier properties. The ordinary PET (or other plastic if the bottle is labeled with anything except a 1) used in normal 5 gallon water bottles will very slowly let oxygen through into whatever is stored inside. It may be fine for primary fermentation, but a using one for a long secondary fermentation isn’t such a good idea, due to oxygen permeation through the wall of the bottle, and the subsequent flavor defects oxygen induces in the beer, or wine.

I agree with the folks suggesting that Better Bottles are, well, better than the ordinary water bottles. Not because I am worried about some chemical leaching out but because of the oxygen leaching into my beer. So, make your own choices, but remember the alcohol in our beer is more toxic than most of the chemicals mentioned, and don’t worry your brain cells into premature death.

Glad to see a fellow scientist commenting on this. I'd just like to add that BPA has poor (120-300 ppm, or 0.012 to 0.03%) solubility in water at 68 degrees F. On the high end, that's 5.6 mg per 5 gal batch, which comes in under the established odor (50 mg/l) and taste (0.25 mg/l) perception thresholds. This also assumes that BPA will be extracted from the polymer at 100% efficiency every time, which is unlikely at typical wort pH (BPA is generally only liberated at high temperatures and/or alkaline pH). BPA itself has a 1000- to 5000-fold lower binding affinity to estrogen receptors compared to estradiol (http://dx.doi.org/10.1210/en.132.6.2279), so it's not like men will suddenly begin lactating from drinking beer fermented in PC carboys.

I can't find good numbers on its solubility in 5-10% aqueous ethanol, which would obviously be the most useful for determining its levels in beer. Maybe I'll have to get an LC/MS on the first batch out of my Lexan carboy, just to see.

Furthermore, most studies on the in vivo biology of BPA have involved direct injection into the bloodstream, which says nothing of the compound's oral bio-availability. Oral dosing of rats (http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/54/1/3) indicate unquantifiably low levels of BPA in the blood, with 52-83% of it excreted fecally and unchanged.

Unfortunately, public discussion of science is often about who can shout the loudest and scare the most. Xenoestrogens have the exact same effect as phytoestrogens, but there's no telling how many people eschew the former while embracing the latter, i.e. drinking from a PC bottle is no worse than eating sprouts.

Thank you AiredAle and Beerchemist for taking the time to write those up. Very informative. Quick question, I thought I read somewhere that using vinyl tubing for draining a MLT into the boil kettle is a bad idea due to the fact that the temp of the wort is approaching the limit for vinyl and may leach bad flavors. In your humble opinion(s) is there any truth to that?

Personally, I'd go with either Teflon or polyethylene. When I made my mash tun, I just used the tube I pulled out of the steel braid--dishwasher hose should tolerate high temps, right?

Most of the numbers I've seen give a max temp of about 175 F for vinyl tubing.

Neighbor has a pile of 5 gallon water bottles. Sadly they were all #7's.

I don't think #7 is necessarily bad especially when it comes to water bottles. Even though #7 is the recycling code for miscellaneous plastics, most if not all bottled water companies use polycarbonate because studies have shown PC has the smallest impact on flavor over time. It is bad for long ferments because of oxygen permeation. I'm going to do an Apfelwein in one..If I don't post that it came out okay you can assume that I grew flippers and died.

disaimer: the "studies" I found were linked to from kegkits.com, which is trying to sell you water-cooler bottles for $11 and claims they are comparable to Better Bottles.

I'm pretty new to homebrewing, but I'll only buy glass carboys to ferment in. I still have my 7 gal bucket that came with my starter kit, which I use. I figure if I'm gonna spend the money, I'll spend a few $ more and get glass.

I was thinking about using one of the #7 bottles to hold campden tab treated water for brewing before adding to kettle/mash tun/HLT/fermenter for top off. I never have enough containers to hold 7-9 gallons of water... seems like a good use of one of those bottles.

Austin Homebrew is selling a PET bottle similar to the better bottle. I just recently purchased 2 of them and will be using them for primary and secondary when needed.
after a long read of Polyplastics that article I feel pretty safe that my beer won't be tainted by chemicals or oxygen because of the bottle material.

Grimm said:

after a long read of Polyplastics that article I feel pretty safe that my beer won't be tainted by chemicals or oxygen because of the bottle material.

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That was a great article it makes me feel better about the polycarbonate water-cooler bottle I have my Apfelwein in. Basically it seems to say that the latest studies indicate that only harmless amounts of BPA can get into food stored in a polycarbonate container. I don't think this applies in your case though.

If your bottle is PET, it never had any harmful chemicals in the first place so there is no chance of any taint from the plastic. PET is also very impermeable to oxygen so it will definately keep your liquids safe during long ferments. This is one of the ways that PET bottles are superior to polycarbonate, which does let oxygen in.

I used 2 of the blue plastic water cooler bottles for about 6 months. One for a primary and the other a secondary. The first several batches were fine, no problems and tasted good.

I then had 2 bad batches in a row . Both tasted like vinegar. I bought 2 glass carboys and all my beers since then have been fine.

I believe the problem was scratches in the plastic. I just couldn't get them clean without scrubbing with a carboy brush.

Now I use those plastic bottles to store used anti-freeze before recycling.

Blulakr said:

Now I use those plastic bottles to store used anti-freeze before recycling.

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Hopefully not in your beer. Good thread! Thanks!

Just curious... Has anyone ever tried using the 30 or 55 gallon white or blue plastic barrels? What type of plastic are they made out of? I've used them fuel storage for my generator prior to hurricanes (even though they were originally food grade plastic). Around here, they are very easy to find for either free or at most $15.

I have a question...I have read a few posts and understand that the plastic bottles are not the greatest for secondary fermenter. My intention is to use some for secondary fermenting using real fruit or vanillia beans. I plan on a 10 gallon boil, splitting it into 2 5 gallon carboys. My issue is I may not do it often and glass is expensive to start. My intention was to break the 5 gallon batches into 2 2.5 gallon batches to play with flavoring. Of the 4, 2 would have fruit, which should start the fermentation process and. Rest CO2. I am not sure about 1 as I would use only vanillia beans only. And the last nothing. I was wondering for the last 2 would nitrogen or CO2 purge be viable to protect 3-4 weeks in a plastic secondary fermenter? If not, would O2 absorbers suspended above the beer along with the purge be viable?

I don't mean to awaken the dead, but I had a bad experience with low density blue water bottles back in 2011, and for anybody reading these forums after googling "ferment in plastic" or the like, don't. Use a food-grade bucket, glass, or a better bottle.
I brewed a strong dubbel in one of these 5 gallon plastic bottles that you can get at Walmart, and I'm pretty sure the high alcohol and relatively low pH of the completed primary dissolved plastic resins into the beer. It tasted like something between paint thinner and hot glue. The flavors proved to be very stable, and after a few months I dumped the whole batch along with the container. The container -- brand new when I bought it -- had tiny visible pits on the inside.
You can get food-grade HDPE 5 gallon buckets from most supermarkets and restaurants *for free*. Don't bother with water bottles.

I just saw an awesome brown gallon jug at an antiques store and was going to buy it for small batch fermenting. But then i noticed it was a Hilex Bleach jug. But it's glass... Any reason i shouldn't use it? It smells like... well, nothing.

From what I see online, looks like that's made of the same stuff that dark beer bottles are. I'd go for it.