ManiacBrewing
Member
I have ran out of bottles and i am sick of using them. I have a IPA fermenting right now. Is it safe to bottle them in a half a gallon growler? I once used carlo rosi wine bottles and they exploded LOL.
Bottling with Growlers instead of bottles?
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KeithMoonsLiver
Well-Known Member
not designed to hold much pressure, could also explode
I've never tried it but I hear that the brown glass growlers are much stronger than the clear glass growlers.
NorCalAngler
Well-Known Member
It's all about the thickness and quality. The thin wine jugs aren't meant for that kind of pressure. I have a Sierra Nevada brown growler that I have bottled in twice without a problem.
l1ranger
Well-Known Member
its gonna be a crap shoot. some might work while others might not
Not this again....
This might give you an idea...."Growler goes Boom"
There's a tons of threads on this. You have to realize that they are meant to hold already carbonated beer, NOT beer carbonating, where the pressure is built up the forces itself into solution. Some folks will say they have no problem, but others will say differently. To me, I sure as heck wouldn't want to play Russian Roulette with my beer.
Do you really want to risk it?
This might give you an idea...."Growler goes Boom"
There's a tons of threads on this. You have to realize that they are meant to hold already carbonated beer, NOT beer carbonating, where the pressure is built up the forces itself into solution. Some folks will say they have no problem, but others will say differently. To me, I sure as heck wouldn't want to play Russian Roulette with my beer.
Do you really want to risk it?
Think of what it's worth to have broken growlers and beer everywhere. I'd bit the bullet and order more bottles.
NorCalAngler
Well-Known Member
Bottles explode too, should we not use them? There are growlers that can easily hold the pressure and those, like in Revvy's example thread, that aren't built to hold the pressure. If it has a twist cap or plastic cap then it's not going to hold carbing pressure. My Sierra Nevada growler is thicker than any homebrew bottle out there, even the stubbies.
So to rebut the nay-sayers, it can be done with the right growler.
So to rebut the nay-sayers, it can be done with the right growler.
Got any pictures of said growler?
I've yet to see a growler in which I'd confidently carbonate beer.
TB
NorCalAngler
Well-Known Member
This is the one here. The photo makes it look thinner than it is due to the lighting. It's thick.
...I can't help myself, "that's what Favre said"
That does appear that it could be a bit more robust than the standard growlers. I still wouldn't gamble with a $11+ growler along with the other assumed risks involved.
Nice call on the Favre jab!
TB
This is NOT a really good comparison, industry standard bottles are rated for quite a high pressure, when a bottle explodes it is because more pressure was built up it in than the bottle can handle, and that is usually because of an infection, too much priming sugar or a flaw in a bottle, but with proper use, they should NOT explode. Well, proper use of a growler is to hold ALREADY carbonated beer, from a keg, NOT bottle conditioning beers. They aren't made or rated for the pressured generated for bottle carbing.......
NorCalAngler
Well-Known Member
I would imagine beer growlers are made to handle pressure generated during the bottle conditioning process. I'll do some digging to see if I can find the science behind the maximum pressure exerted against the glass during the conditioning process. The question is whether it is any different than the pressure generated while my growler sloshes around on the way home from getting it filled, releasing the CO2 out of suspension. My theory is no more pressure is generated in the conditioning process than the activity I mentioned.
The problem I see is people try to reuse wine growlers. Wine isn't a carbonated product and their containers aren't built for that type of pressure.
ManiacBrewing
Member
Thanks for the help guys!
I've bottle-conditioned in this exact growler several times with no problems at all. Its quite thick, and every time I've had great carbonation.
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/2-liter-growler-with-glass-handle-amber.html
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/2-liter-growler-with-glass-handle-amber.html
SkiSoloII
Splitting the beer atom since 1996
How about just going with 22 ouncers? They fill pretty quickly......
Dave
Dave
redm18
Well-Known Member
How about going with 2 litter soda bottles about the same size as your growler, practically free and meant to hold preasure.
ManiacBrewing
Member
Good idea Red! I used plastic soda bottles in the past! I don't know why I stoped!
Well I dont know how to explain it but here's a good experiment. Take a thin walled wine jug (not designed to hold pressure, like carlo vossi or some cheap crap wine jug). Now fill it with soda, close the lid and just leave it. You can slosh it around or shake the crap out of it if you want but 9 out of 10 times it won't fail (i've done this to transfer jack n' coke).
Now, I dare you to bottle condition in that same wine jug. I did once... I'll never do it again.
To carb a beer whether or not is is done naturally or with co2 you are forcing the gas into the solution. The pressure builds up, then there's a point where either the bottle fails or the co2, seeking the path of least resistance, forces itself into solution. You could call it a peak point, where there is a lot of pressure in the bottle, both already in solution and in the headspace trying to go into the solution, eventually it balances out and the beer is carbed.
Beer bottles, champagne bottles and kegs are rated with a higher psi/volume of co2 than wine bottles and growlers.
Already carbed and kegged beer is at a stable volume of co2 which is below the volume that growlers and winebottles are rated at. The FORCING of the co2 already happened. Why do you think kegs are made of metal and very very strong? To handle the pressure.
It really is a no brainer....
Just 'cuz I feel like surfacing to stir a pot, I'll say that I keep away from growlers because I don't want to worry about the screw cap. There. Continue.
TL
TL
Correct. Also note that you are forcing a gas to dissolve into a liquid, not just "into solution," which may help picture why such pressure is required.
Already carbed beer doesn't produce any pressure to its container beyond atmospheric, unless nucleation takes place.
TB
Yup, that's probably the weakest link in the chain. I wonder if that and the neck area near the cap is where it would be more likely to fail at, just like with a mason jar (whose lid is meant to hold vacuum sucked inward, not pressure trying to force outward.
Some of these more fancy growlers with the flip tops might be able to take it, they seem more substantial, and have the mechanism to keep the stopper in place, but honestly, at 30 or more bucks a pop, I sure wouldn't even want to risk them....
i have 6 of those ive got irish red ale in they are very thick. thick enough i didnt think twice about using them. they are made by/for the califorina glass company in england.
syblue
Member
I have used Dead Guy Ale 1/2 gallon bottles and had no problems. I boil the caps and put them on with pliers
This is because during carbing, the pressure can go above 30 or 40 PSI. I have a thread in the cider forum where I did several tests bottle carbing sweet hard cider. There is allot of data there if your interested.
I have a bottle with a pressure gauge on it. I recorded pressures during the carbing process. This is how the data was generated. I also recorded pressures while pasteurizing the cider.
I recently bottled some lager I made. I also filled my gauge bottle and my lower pressure gauge bottle pegged at 35 PSI as that was the limit of the gauge. It probably ended up in the 40's, but no way to tell for sure.
When we bottle condition beer, we are really simulating force carbing like the keg folks do. We cause a ferment by adding sugar. This creates a high pressure in the bottle. CO2 doesn't like to dissolve in a warm liquid. We then put some bottles in the fridge. The temperature of the liquid drops and the CO2 then begins to dissolve in the liquid.
It seems to take several days at fridge temperatures for the CO2 to fully saturate the liquid for a maximum saturation for that liquid temperature.
While the CO2 is moving into the liquid, the pressure slowly drops. I've monitored this process as well with the pressure gauge.
Pressures go way higher than folks think while bottle conditioning. In the following data, I carbed sweet hard cider and stopped the carbing and then pasteurized the cider when the bottle was at 22 PSI. My Lager went above 35 PSI. The data doesn't show the extremes the pressure rises with beer as I stopped the cider at 22 PSI, but it would have continued if i hadn't stopped it.
The gauge bottle has a nice side effect, it tells you when your bottles are conditioned as the pressure rise stops. I then throw them in the Fridge to cold condition for several days before I open. The gauge also tells you when they are carbed as the pressure drop stops. Pretty basic really.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/bottle-carbing-idea-final-data-review-205862/
Thanks Rukus for your research. I still don't get why we have to explain this process- WHy people can't seem to get that there is a difference between carbonating beer, and carbed beer......But at least we have your data now.
Thanks Rev...This testing was done with Sweet Hard Cider carbing in mind, however it still would apply to Beer.
There are pressurization tables on the internet that show the pressures needed to carb to specific volumes of CO2. I used those and Priming Calculators to come up with the sugar content needed.
The gauge should verify what you calculated for priming is giving you want you want.
I use one of these bottles per batch as a indication of where I am in the conditioning process. You won't have to chill and then open a test bottle frequently to see if your done or not. You have data that tells you when you are.
You can get a gauge on amazon for about 8 bucks and just use a pop bottle. I've reused my bottles several times without issues.
FWIW
/thread
I think we can put this to rest now. We have a theoretical explanation, anecdotes, and empirical data, all painting a pretty clear picture that it is not a good idea to carbonate beer in a growler.
Cheers guys,
TB
I think we can put this to rest now. We have a theoretical explanation, anecdotes, and empirical data, all painting a pretty clear picture that it is not a good idea to carbonate beer in a growler.
Cheers guys,
TB
This pretty much sums it up.....
And yet people are still going to try it, and still going to post that it worked for them, and others are going to report explosions.
I think it goes down to this.....is it worth playing Russian Roulette with your money and the time you spent bringing your brew along from grain to bottling day???
And yet people are still going to try it, and still going to post that it worked for them, and others are going to report explosions.
I think it goes down to this.....is it worth playing Russian Roulette with your money and the time you spent bringing your brew along from grain to bottling day???
madbaldman
Well-Known Member
That's very interesting. So what would I see if I just bottled a beer and left it at room temp? Would I see pressure peak and then slowly fall off as the C02 goes into solution? When pressure stabilized, I'd know I was fully carbed?
No, when you bottle condition, the slight fermentation we cause by adding priming sugar just builds pressure up in the bottle. The pressures seem to go up into the 30's and 40's PSI from what I've seen.
The CO2 doesn't really move into the liquid until the temperature drops. Some CO2 may, but not the majority of it. CO2 doesn't dissolve into solution until a lower temperature.
This is really what we do when we force carb in a keg. We raise the pressure up when the beer is cold. The CO2 moves into the solution. The tap pressure is lowered for proper delivery and the beer either sets for cold aging, or it is consumed at that time.
What you would see with the pressure gauge (if you use one bigger than my first bottle had. Should use a 100 PSI Gauge) is that the pressure climbs over time and will level off.
Once the pressure levels off, that means all of the priming sugar has been used up by the yeast. Next, you put them into the fridge. You will see the pressure drop over several days. Eventually, it also will level off. I like to let them sit for a few more days after that, but really if the pressure stops dropping, all of the CO2 that can be dissolved at that temperature has been achieved.
I think at that time, the bottles are carbed and conditioned. However, the beer will be much better tasting if left at room temperature longer. It gives the beer time to age and the pallet blends.
It certainly would be drinkable and carbed at the time the pressure stops dropping in the fridge though.
I forgot to mention that there will be some level of CO2 while bottle conditioning at room temperature as you have caused a mild ferment with the priming sugar.
Most of the CO2 generated in the solution by ferment comes out of the solution to fill the head space and to build pressure. It will stop moving from the liquid and into the head space once the pressure and the saturation level for that temperature balance.
Most of the CO2 generated in the solution by ferment comes out of the solution to fill the head space and to build pressure. It will stop moving from the liquid and into the head space once the pressure and the saturation level for that temperature balance.
A additional note that I forgot to mention is that leaving the bottles in the fridge for a few days longer after the pressure drops may make the beer more evenly carbonated.
I don't have any empirical data that supports this yet, but my guess is that the carbonation is likely to be heavier near the top of the solution, and may take a few days to evenly distribute itself. I'm not sure how to solidify this guess.
I can only theorize as sometimes when you bottle condition and put in the fridge, you get gushers if you don't wait long enough. To me, this means that the gas hasn't balanced itself evenly yet. The beer is at perhaps 1 atmosphere above ambient and we pop the cap. The gas moves toward the low pressure and the bubble grow rapidly near the top of the bottle.
As I said, this is a theory and not yet supported by empirical data.
I don't have any empirical data that supports this yet, but my guess is that the carbonation is likely to be heavier near the top of the solution, and may take a few days to evenly distribute itself. I'm not sure how to solidify this guess.
I can only theorize as sometimes when you bottle condition and put in the fridge, you get gushers if you don't wait long enough. To me, this means that the gas hasn't balanced itself evenly yet. The beer is at perhaps 1 atmosphere above ambient and we pop the cap. The gas moves toward the low pressure and the bubble grow rapidly near the top of the bottle.
As I said, this is a theory and not yet supported by empirical data.
NorCalAngler
Well-Known Member
Revvy, I'm not saying it is 100% safe to carbonate in a growler. I was PMing with Rukus about his data before he came over. So this is what we know: PSI inside the bottle went above 35 PSI for his lager. How far above we don't know. The missing element now is at what PSI a growler designed to hold carbonated beverages will fail. I have conditioned three beers in my growler now at various co2 volumes without failure. Would I condition a 3 volume Saison in the growler? Nope. However, I still have no problem carbing a 2.2 volume or lower brew in there.
Which is fine, we won't tell you what to do, but you not having a problem with it doesn't mean it's safe.
So, let's put this to rest, shall we? We don't recommend it, but you've had success with it. If you want to keep the gamble going, go ahead. I've learned from experience that growlers will and do fail when carbonating beer in them. I, personally, will stick to vessels meant for higher pressure. You can stick to what you want. We'll be happy, drink our respective beers, and enjoy this wonderful hobby.
Here here!
TB
Well A bottle IS nearly 100% safe to BOTLLE CARB IN...We know that, and that explosions in bottles are the excetions to the rules.....Not the other way around.
I'm sticking with what I posted initially, and have repeated at least twice.
I don't.....
Like Tiber said it's your beer. But when a noob starts the next thread like this, probably next week, we're going to give the same answers...
*shrug*
