homebrew taste........(where does it come from!)

jonmohno said:

I think so,so many interpetations can be misinterpetated. Homebrew taste seems to me maybe they are interperting more bottle conditioned yeast style.Could even be the 'green'? To me,it seems just the yeast. I wouldnt even single out the local municipal water supply.

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I don't know about that. I went to a homebrew tasting put on by a local store and most of the beers offered were kit beers from brewers best and from the store and virtually all of them had something about them that to me just screamed amateur. Improper temperature control, bad pitching rates, bad sanitation... I don't know. What I do know is that they all had a muddied taste, muted hop flavors and where generally just pretty "meh."

On the other hand there was one guy who had a phenomenal tripel. I find with my own beers they don't really broadcast "homebrew" to me like those ones at the tasting. To me they seem to taste like mediocre to blah commerical beers and a couple that have been damn good. I suspect that generally the homebrew taste vs the not homebrew taste is a matter of experience and technique of the brewer.

Horseballs said:

I don't know about that. I went to a homebrew tasting put on by a local store and most of the beers offered were kit beers from brewers best and from the store and virtually all of them had something about them that to me just screamed amateur. Improper temperature control, bad pitching rates, bad sanitation... I don't know. What I do know is that they all had a muddied taste, muted hop flavors and where generally just pretty "meh."

On the other hand there was one guy who had a phenomenal tripel. I find with my own beers they don't really broadcast "homebrew" to me like those ones at the tasting. To me they seem to taste like mediocre to blah commerical beers and a couple that have been damn good. I suspect that generally the homebrew taste vs the not homebrew taste is a matter of experience and technique of the brewer.

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Well yeah,green,off,amature,shure.Not alot of commercial beers put out those.Thats usually why commercial are bottled and sold widely because they are somewhat good. Although shure there are mediocre ones as well.There wouldnt be good if there were not bad. Maybe it should be known more as amature homebrew taste rather than "homebrew taste"

I get a lot of "homebrew taste" from hot fermentations...lots IPA's have bubble gum fruity esters as opposed to clean flavors from the hops. I also constantly get stupid homebrew flavors from kegging bottled beer directly from the tap. The beer gets oxidized and flat. It tastes lousy.

Most bad homebrew flavors are from lack of bottle conditioning or force carbonating the beer too early. Other than that I can also say I am enjoying my homebrew more than commercially produced beer. I get the homebrew flavor I want...

Most beers the yeast settles and cleans up nice.

I've learned there are a few process mistakes that lead to the kinds of flavors I associate with cheap homebrew:

1) Fermentation temperature wrong for that yeast (esp. hot fermentations);
2) Chlorine in the water because it wasn't filtered or treated;
3) Poor recipe, e.g. malt selection or mineral additions.

Then there are a few things that *may* cause those flavors, but I can't confirm personally:
4) Lack of O2 in cooled wort;
5) Pitching insufficient yeast;
6) Poor temp control during mashing & sparging;
7) Massive hot-side aeration;
8) Myriad other minor process issues.

I've never gotten such off-flavors due to presence of yeast or insufficient aging.

Offhand, a couple commercial examples remind me of cheap homebrew: "Sawtooth Ale" by Left Hand Brewery, and "Somersault" by Flat Tire. You'd expect they'd follow good procedures, so maybe there are ingredients that people associate with cheap homebrew. If I made a beer like either of those, I'd dump it immediately.

I don't mind Somersault. I drink less than a sixer of it a year though.

SpeedYellow said:

I've learned there are a few process mistakes that lead to the kinds of flavors I associate with cheap homebrew:

1) Fermentation temperature wrong for that yeast (esp. hot fermentations);
2) Chlorine in the water because it wasn't filtered or treated;
3) Poor recipe, e.g. malt selection or mineral additions.

Then there are a few things that *may* cause those flavors, but I can't confirm personally:
4) Lack of O2 in cooled wort;
5) Pitching insufficient yeast;
6) Poor temp control during mashing & sparging;
7) Massive hot-side aeration;
8) Myriad other minor process issues.

I've never gotten such off-flavors due to presence of yeast or insufficient aging.

Offhand, a couple commercial examples remind me of cheap homebrew: "Sawtooth Ale" by Left Hand Brewery, and "Somersault" by Flat Tire. You'd expect they'd follow good procedures, so maybe there are ingredients that people associate with cheap homebrew. If I made a beer like either of those, I'd dump it immediately.

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I agree with these causing an off taste and will add using dry yeast to the list. I know a ton of people will disagree with me about this one but I can pretty much always taste safale

I think the homebrew "twang" is mostly from ingredient freshness (lack there of) and oxidation. All of the other common mistakes cause other off flavors that make for terrible beer.

WhiteDog87 said:

I agree with these causing an off taste and will add using dry yeast to the list. I know a ton of people will disagree with me about this one but I can pretty much always taste safale

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So not think that the safale taste has more to do that you can taste that yeast than it being an off flavor?

tom_gamer said:

So not think that the safale taste has more to do that you can taste that yeast than it being an off flavor?

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I just find the taste of safale to be off. Not saying its a product of infection, poor fermentation, staling, oxidation or anything else, I just plain dont like it.
The flavors it produces are not ones I enjoy in a beer.

WhiteDog87 said:

I just find the taste of safale to be off. Not saying its a product of infection, poor fermentation, staling, oxidation or anything else, I just plain dont like it.
The flavors it produces are not ones I enjoy in a beer.

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But that's personal preference, not necessarily a flaw. I could say the same about many strains of yeast, both dry and liquid.

Denny said:

But that's personal preference, not necessarily a flaw. I could say the same about many strains of yeast, both dry and liquid.

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I say its a flaw with the yeast, as it is the yeast that is producing the undesirable flavor. It is not a normal ester, fusel, ketone, or phenolic flavor that is produced by healthy yeast, it is something entirely different.


A flaw is a flaw whether it is brewer error or a flaw in the ingredients used to produce the beer, i dont see that as a preference issue.

I guess we have to agree to disagree, because I don't think its a flaw, I have made pretty good beer with that yeast.

WhiteDog87 said:

I say its a flaw with the yeast, as it is the yeast that is producing the undesirable flavor. It is not a normal ester, fusel, ketone, or phenolic flavor that is produced by healthy yeast, it is something entirely different.


A flaw is a flaw whether it is brewer error or a flaw in the ingredients used to produce the beer, i dont see that as a preference issue.

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But "undesirable" is subjective. There are beers where diacetyl is undesirable and others where it's an integral part of the flavor. There are beers where banana/bubblegum flavors are an undesirable result of high temp fermentation, and others where those flavors define the style. There are people out there who love Ringwood yeast, a liquid Wyeast strain. I find its flavors completely undesirable. That's my perception, not a flaw of the yeast.

Denny said:

But "undesirable" is subjective. There are beers where diacetyl is undesirable and others where it's an integral part of the flavor. There are beers where banana/bubblegum flavors are an undesirable result of high temp fermentation, and others where those flavors define the style. There are people out there who love Ringwood yeast, a liquid Wyeast strain. I find its flavors completely undesirable. That's my perception, not a flaw of the yeast.

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Yes but all the flavors you just described fall into the range of normal ester, fusel, ketone, or phenol production from yeast. The flavor and aroma that I get from dry yeast is none of these, it is a totally different type of flavor/aroma. It most likely has something to do with the process of drying and storing the yeast that adds these flavors, not the normal life cycle of the yeast.

Another factor to figure in is a persons ability (or lack of) to taste and smell specific compounds, and at different thresholds. Some people completely lack the ability to taste certain compounds (I have a friend who can't taste diacetyl, at all, no matter how much is present in the beer!), and some can only taste these compounds once they are beyond a certain threshold. Another is Iodine, which most people cannot taste at all, however myself and few other people I have spoken with can taste it, which Is why I switched from Iodophor to Starsan.

And like I said, I know there are tons of dry yeast fans out there, and I knew they would disagree with me, but i think a lot of the obsession is over cost and ease of use as oppose to the quality of the product.

We have done split batches with different yeast to see how it effects the outcome. As long as the yeast matches the style and is allowed to work at the right temps everything turns out just great.

I've used WLP001 and US-05 basically interchangeable (using dry when I didn't have time to make a starter) and have gotten great consistency on what my friends tell me is a great pale ale.

BobBailey said:

No argument there. I do like the icing on the cake tho

bob

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Who doesn't love icing on cake? I mean, who the hell eats cake with no icing? No one, that's who! LOL

I'm guessing it is the yeast they are tasting, though I've not had any issues with my beer. Everyone who has had it has said it is as good, if not better, than similar commercial brands.

Cincyfan78 said:

Who doesn't love icing on cake? I mean, who the hell eats cake with no icing? No one, that's who! LOL

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ME thats who! I'm the A-hole who dosnt like icing OR dry yeast! :cross:

I like cake, not icing! Thats why i despise cup cakes, the ratio is just way off! Which is why i promptly take a knife and scrape off the icing before peeling off the little paper wrapper.

WhiteDog87 said:

ME thats who! I'm the A-hole who dosnt like icing OR dry yeast! :cross:

I like cake, not icing! Thats why i despise cup cakes, the ratio is just way off! Which is why i promptly take a knife and scrape off the icing before peeling off the little paper wrapper.

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I shake my head at you.

there are many factors that will lead to "homebrew taste" 2 biggest are fermentation temps and infection i think. To hot fermentation will give off flavours. And we brew at home, with kids around, pets and all the other stuff whe do in our kitchen and homes. All kind of stuff flowing around in the air, When you clean all your gear properly, and cool the wort down as fast as possible we can keep it down to acceptable levels and the yeast will clean up most of it. so it will not affect the taste of our beers to much. But is is almost imposible to brew infection free. Homebrew taste is just an infection that is on the edge of breaking true. just my 2 cents