Why Electric? Confused

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RumRiverBrewer said:
I'm torn between simplifying my brew days and just going out and buying some good craft brew at the store.... I like this hobby because I can brew the beer I like and have a stake in claiming the success in the final product. That's why I grow hops, grind grains, mash, mix, bottle, etc... It's hands-on. I'm always looking for ways to increase the efficiency of my brew days but if I find myself one day working with a computer controlled electric brewery, maybe it'd be easier to just go to the store and get a 6-pack instead/...
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Most of us are here because brewing is our hobby. Some of us enjoy building and automating our breweries as part of the hobby. I don't think you will one day "find yourself" with a fancy brewery if that is not your goal. Electric can be very simple. It's just an option for heating that happens to be relatively easy to automate.

Going to the store for a six pack is far easier than brewing a batch on even the simplest system. We all have the quick and easy option available.
 
cwi said:
Why do you think NG water heaters and furnaces are preferred over electric?

If you use propane, and especially BBQ tanks, you are paying a premium for small volume sales, or for not having access to NG. It is only 2x cheaper than electricity, but still just as inefficient at heating. If you use a heat shield/shroud combined with an gas burner, the heat waste is more tolerable, but still more expensive than electricity. However, the 15X gas vs. elec number is dubious. I remember one guy was claiming his energy cost using electricity was $0.25/batch????

I have brewed 18+ gallon batches with much less than one BBQ tank, and smaller batches with more appropriately sized pots would be more efficient than that. The efficiency of gas heat starts decreasing exponentially as the size of the kettle goes up, for typical homebrew setups that is. Above 25 gallons, some kind of jacket/shroud or going to steam power starts to make economic sense, hence why large breweries use gas fired steam boilers for everything.
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I agree that NG is cheaper than propane, but not all of us have that option. I live in the country and have to use propane for my furnace. I have the ability to fill my 20lb tanks from the large tank, so I pay about $2/gallon for propane no matter if in the large tank or in the small. My electricity is .09/KWH so it must be one of the cheaper areas in the nation.
The calcs are below, 5.5kw x time operated x elec cost
Mash water = 5.5 x.75 x .09= .37
Sparge Water 5.5 x .75 x .09= .37
To boil 5.5 x .5 x .09 = .165
Boil 5.5 x 1.5 x .09 x .65= .49

Total elec cost= $1.36

The boil is at 65% once reached. These numbers are for 13 gallons in the fermenter.
I too didn't believe that elec was the way to go until I did it. I started with a 5500w element in a keg as a HLT and for about 300 dollars used that for a couple years and I couldn't believe how well it worked. Eventually I started boiling with it as well since I didn't have to babysit the kettle as it came to boiling. It is a little more work to clean out with the element in there, but only takes a few more minutes.

Since then I have also purchased an electric steam kettle and that is just as efficient as the smaller unit in terms of speed and control. Once I get the rig all set up, I will use my keg HLT, a 120 qt cooler and the 40 gal kettle for boiling.
 
cwi said:
10:1.43 != 13.98:1 (more like 7:1)
I think you used a full tank at $20, instead of 1/2 at $10 for you calc. Even using your $0.10/kWh which is a little low, and $20 for a fill which is a little high, it is ~7:1.
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Good point. I fixed my above post.

I was talking 18 gal, and actually a bit more, to the fermenter. That was with ~1/2 tank. Using those numbers would get it down below 5X. I will see how much I use tomorrow to get a more precise usage number. Also, using natural gas those numbers would be roughly cut in half to ~3X. Those numbers for LP and NG fit better with the theoretical numbers I came up with.
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That's pretty good use then. You're in austin so it's warmer (less heat escaping). You may also use insulated kettles? Or possible some shielding around the kettle flame to not lose as much to atmosphere?

I seriously think that if someone paid special attention to limiting the amount of heat lost to atmosphere then the pricing for both ways (gas vs electric) would be more similar. Going NG or with larger propane tanks would help too. You pay a premium on the small BBQ sized tanks.

Most people don't do the extra work so I think about a 10:1 or roughly one order of magnitude is pretty good when you factor in what most people do and take an average over the year in various climates. That's the number I've heard for years now that's typically stated when people want a rough idea.

Thinking about it more now, before when I said 10-15:1 ratio average it's probably more correct to go the other side and say 5-10:1 ratio average. Some brewers may see 15:1 if they switched but I think most would see a 5-10:1 cost reduction.

(Not including buying the electrical stuff of course - the cost of entry for electrical setups will always be higher than gas... you can do a cheap all-grain propane setup with a simple $10 picnic cooler to mash and a $50 turkey fryer to boil.)

I wasn't questioning the electric usage numbers, except for this guy claiming $0.25. ~$2 sounds about right for a 10 gal batch.
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Agreed. I don't see how anyone could brew any sized batch with only $0.25 in electricity. (Unless they supplement with solar panels?) :)

I just haven't seen enough good info on what element to use that won't have the corrosion/rust issues. The latest I read is the black Incoloy elements are actually SS, and they have the non-rusting/corroding metal at the base as well.
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Do you have hard water? I have soft water and haven't had any issues. I hear that hard water users have more issues. That said, I have a couple of magnesium anodes on their way to me so that I can update my site with information on how to avoid rust for those who tend to brew with harder water (as it seems to affect them more). If you don't want to wait for detailed pics/instructions, see here. I'll be installing one in my HLT using the same weldless method I use for everything else. I haven't seen issues myself but others have so it's definitely real. This fix has seemed to work well for others so I figured I might as well document it step by step.

Kal
 
onthekeg said:
I agree that NG is cheaper than propane, but not all of us have that option. I live in the country and have to use propane for my furnace. I have the ability to fill my 20lb tanks from the large tank, so I pay about $2/gallon for propane no matter if in the large tank or in the small. My electricity is .09/KWH so it must be one of the cheaper areas in the nation.
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I said basically the same thing about LP and NG access. NG is 1/2 the cost of LP, but you have to live where a gas line is. A 20LB tank fill for you would only be ~$8. Whatever number you come up with can be converted by $LP = $NG*2. This is based on a rough cost/energy between them.
The question at hand is whether LP is 15X the energy price/batch when using electricity.

onthekeg said:
The calcs are below, 5.5kw x time operated x elec cost
Mash water = 5.5 x.75 x .09= .37
Sparge Water 5.5 x .75 x .09= .37
To boil 5.5 x .5 x .09 = .165
Boil 5.5 x 1.5 x .09 x .65= .49

Total elec cost= $1.36
Click to expand...
Do you have your LP usage per batch?

onthekeg said:
The boil is at 65% once reached. These numbers are for 13 gallons in the fermenter.
I too didn't believe that elec was the way to go until I did it. I started with a 5500w element in a keg as a HLT and for about 300 dollars used that for a couple years and I couldn't believe how well it worked. Eventually I started boiling with it as well since I didn't have to babysit the kettle as it came to boiling. It is a little more work to clean out with the element in there, but only takes a few more minutes.
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I am going down the same route, and will make and E-HLT first. I don't understand how you don't have to babysit the kettle until boil. The first boil is where it seems to boil over easiest. Going off temp seems unreliable. Is there a trick?

onthekeg said:
Since then I have also purchased an electric steam kettle and that is just as efficient as the smaller unit in terms of speed and control. Once I get the rig all set up, I will use my keg HLT, a 120 qt cooler and the 40 gal kettle for boiling.
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A similar sized NG fired steam jacketed kettle will be cheaper to run than an electric. An LP version should be similar or a bit cheaper than electric. You won't find many, if any, breweries using an electric steam generator. The gas steam generators are much more efficient than a brew pot. Some restaurant style steam kettles use electric for the ease of no venting, which is an advantage for inside home use as well.
 
I think the gas/electric comparison in the original post is a bit challenged.

On a stove, you deliver heat to the outside of a pot. The difference in gas and electric only apply in that setting.

In most cases, in electric brewing, you deliver electric heat directly into the wort. There is far less loss.

My 5g batch cost is just under a $1.
 
cwi said:
I am going down the same route, and will make and E-HLT first. I don't understand how you don't have to babysit the kettle until boil. The first boil is where it seems to boil over easiest. Going off temp seems unreliable. Is there a trick?
Click to expand...

If you have a PID running your element up to boil you can set a high temp alarm to beep at you when the kettle hits, say, 200 or 205. Then you can get back by your brewery before the foam hits the floor.
 
howabouttheiris said:
I think the gas/electric comparison in the original post is a bit challenged.

On a stove, you deliver heat to the outside of a pot. The difference in gas and electric only apply in that setting.

In most cases, in electric brewing, you deliver electric heat directly into the wort. There is far less loss.

My 5g batch cost is just under a $1.
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???
So you think the gas/electric cost ratio is more than 15/1?

All of the theoretical calcs given for electric assumed 100% transfer efficiency, and the gas at ~25%. Theoretical electric usage will be almost identical to actual usage, as long as the '%-on times' are accurate. Gas estimates are more of a WAG heavily dependent on the rig and environment.

The electric usage estimate used was the same as yours- ~$2/10 gal to your ~$1/5 gal.

I think if you re-read the posts carefully you will understand how the numbers were arrived at. Cost per BTU are NG=2*LP=4*Elec. Assuming the same realized BTU input for all, all that is left is the (in)efficiency LP and NG.
 
CWI, I don't really have an actual amount of propane used per batch of beer as I don't accurately weigh the container before and after fill out of my large tank. I didn't switch due to cost, I did for the speed and ease of the elec system, as well as brewing indoors. My Sq-10 and jet burner were nortoriously slow and the jet burner would rust terribly so I had to constantly take it apart and wire brush it. They were always inside, but rusted from humidity in the summer.
 
shortyjacobs said:
If you have a PID running your element up to boil you can set a high temp alarm to beep at you when the kettle hits, say, 200 or 205. Then you can get back by your brewery before the foam hits the floor.
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That makes sense. I couldn't figure out a way to do it with just temp, but sometimes there are non-obvious solutions. Although I think I would also make the set point 200-205, instead of just relying on the alarm while max heat is still being applied.

I was trying to help out a non-engineer type in another forum who was trying to PLC a rig, and was convinced he could automate boil (and boil-off rate) just with temp. I warned him of his folly, explained it thoroughly, but to no avail.
 
I do this sometimes when I'm busy doing other things (in and out of the brewery). I'm easily distracted and lose track of time. ;)

Instead of running the Boil Kettle PID in manual mode at 100%, I set it to auto mode at a temp of 208F and turn the alarm (also set to 208F). It then heats up to this (but not over) and sounds the alarm. I then switch over to manual at 100% and watch/wait for foam and stir to avoid a boilover.

I know I'm going to jinx myself by saying this, but I have yet to have a boilover.

kal
 
onthekeg said:
CWI, I don't really have an actual amount of propane used per batch of beer as I don't accurately weigh the container before and after fill out of my large tank. I didn't switch due to cost, I did for the speed and ease of the elec system, as well as brewing indoors. My Sq-10 and jet burner were nortoriously slow and the jet burner would rust terribly so I had to constantly take it apart and wire brush it. They were always inside, but rusted from humidity in the summer.
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I never worry about the rust on outside of the burners, but have had some rust internally enough to clog the holes. The metal used for casting those is highly variable, so some are prone to serious flaking and tumor like growths.

That steam kettle you got is the way to go for large batches. I hope they don't become the rage before I step up to one. The competition/prices on ebay for tri-clamp and other lab gear suitable for brewing has increased dramatically, and the same would be sure to happen for used restaurant gear.
 
cwi said:
I never worry about the rust on outside of the burners, but have had some rust internally enough to clog the holes. The metal used for casting those is highly variable, so some are prone to serious flaking and tumor like growths.

That steam kettle you got is the way to go for large batches. I hope they don't become the rage before I step up to one. The competition/prices on ebay for tri-clamp and other lab gear suitable for brewing has increased dramatically, and the same would be sure to happen for used restaurant gear.
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It was internal rusting and clogging that would cause it to burn dirty all the time, especially when it was throttled back. I was at a crossroads where I needed a new burner or just jump in electric and brew inside in the cold weather.

Yes the steam kettle is quick to get to temp, and I don't have to worry about scorching wort as it is a giant double boiler in essence. I haven't got it all lined out yet, but it has been pretty positive thus far. They are out there, just know where to look. I bought mine out of a school that closed and merged with another.
 
Forgot to post results from brew day. No exact measurement, since it was a bit a cluster breaking in a friend's new brew rig.

It looks like around, but no more than, 2/3 tank for 18-19 gallons to the fermenter. There was a lot of waste dealing with new banjo burners in a new stand. I see why using booster blocks between the frame and kettle is what some of the more well known tuners are advocating. The standard brew rig is a horrible design regarding energy efficiency. I had always questioned the design and wondered about all the heat blocking due to the frame sealing off the flame area. Who says dreams don't come true. The portable banjos used before were much more efficient than a standard rig.

This was also doing a fly sparge with mash-out, so at least 10 extra gallons were heated to ~170F vs. a batch sparge.

It should be easy enough to modify the standard brew stand for better breathing and heat transfer, and easily get to 1/2 tank or less per ~18 gallons. I hear using the smaller size banjo for the BK works better than the 14" since there is less flame bloom up the sides at high heat.

Still, a lot of work and futzing about to accommodate using gas.
 
In reply to the first post, the Brew Magic does actually use an electric element to maintain the mash temperature as a RIMS set up. Rather than the wort being pumped through a coil in the HLT, it goes through a tube with the heating element in it. They use a dinky element that runs off 120v so they also have gas to get the thing up to temp and then also for boiling and heating strike liquor.

I finished a rig this summer and decided to do both the 5500w driven HLT per Kal, but also a natural gas hurricane burner under the HLT and BK. I crank everything up at start and it takes 20-30 minutes to get over 20 gallons (13 in HLT and recirculating ~7-10g in BK) to mash in temps. Gas is all shut off then and Mash recirc'd through HLT controlled by element and PID. I then go back to gas for boiling.

I also live in Atlanta and don't worry much about the weather. I brew in a garage or right in front of it depending on rain. I love the speed and power from the natural gas, and dialing in the hurricane burners from a simmer to a raging boil is no problem.

Probably over kill, but an answer to having to decide on either/or... ;)
 
Did anybody mention these electric systems with their precise temperature controls are reporting mash efficiencies in the low to mid 90% range, which will reduce your grain bill. It's should be part of the cost analysis. Very safe to use, its like one of those Ron Popeil commercials "Set it, and forget it!"

I love my Kal modified clone! Castermmt

theeElectricbrewery.com
 
This is a great thread. Very educational. I've learned a lot about the reasons why people go electric and the pros and cons compared to NG and LP.

My rig is a 10 gallon NG single tier, Brutus style. I brew under a covered porch out back, rain or shine, and since I live in Texas, it rarely gets cold enough in the winter to stop me. The 110 degree days in the summer are another matter. I take a pass on those days, even with the shaded porch. Working around the hot flames and boiling liquids when it's already 110 ambient is no fun.

I don't give any consideration to the cost of the NG as it doesn't amount to much, but I'd welcome the greater control over my brewing that electric would make possible. I'd convert to electric if the equipment costs weren't so high. I may ease into it at some point, perhaps starting with the HLT. For sure if I didn't have NG or if I was brewing much larger batches (20 gallon), I'd choose electric over propane just for the convenience of not having to worry about having sufficient LP on hand or having bottles filled.
 
Just got done having this conversation with the GF. This topic has come up before and I am sure it will come up again. I am an electrician by trade and could easily build an electric system, but choose not to, for a few reasons. One, I am cold -blooded by nature and actually prefer to be outside even in winter. I could be outside all day on the coldest day of the year and come inside and warm up the GF. She will never quite understand that......

Two, electric builds are not cheap. They are cheaper to run, but much more expensive to build. And the reverse is true for propane.

Three, electric builds are stationary. I really enjoy going to brewdays with the local club, or just to a friend's house or whatever. If they don't have the electric capabilities to feed my system, I am SOL. As it is, I can load my gear in my truck or on a trailer and go. There is an outdoor brew that I have been meaning to attend that takes place on a frozen lake about an hour from me. No way could I do that with an electric rig- there is no portable generator made that can handle that. Now I know there are some folks that have a second rig for such things, well bully for them. I don't have the money or space for two rigs- that is just silly. So I choose to go with propane. It is my choice, and I have given my reasons. Others have their reasons for electric, and it is all good. Have a wonderful day all............
 
Bernie Brewer said:
there is no portable generator made that can handle that.
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This might do the trick ;)

GTXT45-2T.jpg

It is a little pricey. A $20k brew accessory might be tough to explain to the wife. Plus it would probably fall through the ice;)
 
Bernie Brewer said:
I knew someone wold post something like that. Let me rephrase.........there is no affordable portable generator that can handle that....
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True! But I kept my old stuff so I still can do a brewday with propane if I want to. I rarely do brewdays with others, but I can if I want to.

By the way, I miss Robin Yount! I almost didn't recognize you!
 
I've only done 4 brews on my eherms but I am not getting anywhere near 90% efficiency. More like 75% but it's likely due to the way I am sparging.

For any who are getting ~90% efficiency how are you sparging?

I pump the sparge liquor into the HLT and start the wort flow to the kettle at ~ the same flow rate until I get my volume. Should I be doing this differently?
 
75% is on the high end of efficiency that you want. I just read an article (can't find it) on why Jamil's pilsner had more flavor and it was due to the lower efficiency.
I shoot for the low 70's on my brews.
 
elj4176 said:
I've only done 4 brews on my eherms but I am not getting anywhere near 90% efficiency. More like 75% but it's likely due to the way I am sparging.

For any who are getting ~90% efficiency how are you sparging?

I pump the sparge liquor into the HLT and start the wort flow to the kettle at ~ the same flow rate until I get my volume. Should I be doing this differently?
Click to expand...

There is nothing wrong with 75% efficiency. You can spend time and effort trying to improve, but unless you want to crush a bit finer, I'd spend the time and effort on doing something else.

I recommend settling the process so you can get consistent results. Then factor your recipes for that efficiency.

Ever hear of a guy name Icarus?
 
Not sure why eBrewing would effect your efficiency. To me, the most important factors aside from mixing the heck out of the mash at dough in to ensure no dough balls and a nice mixture are. 1. Slow sparge and 2. vigorous boil.

My sparges typically take ~75 minutes to get about 12.2-12.5 gallon in the BK. Added sparge liquor should form a totally clear head space above the grain bed after ~45 minutes or so.

A strong boil allows you to start with more sparged wort, thus more sugar for you to concentrate down a bit from evaporation of water during the boil.

Of course a finer crush helps too. I prefer to deal with sticky mashes at the beginning of recirculating and getting higher efficiency. I've never hit 90%, but 85% is common. I have to use my mash paddle to 'scrape clean' the false bottom early in the recirculating to keep it from getting stuck. Takes less than 10 minutes of intermittent prodding for the bed to settle nicely and filter itself to smooth recirculation. I cherish this early time standing over the mash with paddle. It's the most intimate part of the process I think....
 
Electric definitely has it's benefits. Personally I think a blended system is the best way to go. Electric HLT and propane for the boil.
 
I'm going electric so that I don't have to fill my propane tank, the noise - MY GOD THE NOISE !, and I don't have to bird-dog the HLT to get to 170* (not 168, not 172, 170) The PID is going to handle that for me, I can crush grain and measure hops without having to worry how long it takes.

Oh, and it's really cool :)
 
I'm doing electric to have better mash control and to get rid of the requirement to have propane on hand.

As a bonus, I'll be getting rid of the turbo jet noise from the burner.
 
Bernie Brewer said:
I knew someone wold post something like that. Let me rephrase.........there is no affordable portable generator that can handle that....
Click to expand...

I would disagree... most portable generators that are worth anything can generate at least 30A of 240V... Living in the not so far north where we get lots of ice storms (down power lines and such) lots of people have generators for backup power on their houses... that would be a small one for them, and its something they would already have.

edit: example http://www.harborfreight.com/16-hp-...ferralID=a8420f59-1b6d-11e1-931b-001b2166c2c0
 
Yes- most portable generators that can generate 5KW continuous* will put out the required power. I would suggest something in the 6-6500W range.

*NOT peak power. Lots of generators are rated at peak power, which usually refers to what they're capable of putting out over a short period, maybe less than a minute, to handle the starting loads of A/C, heat pumps, and the compressors in fridges and freezers, and any other decent sized electric motor that's starting under load.
 
It's been posted before, but for me it's two parts weather and one part wildlife. For seven to eight months of the year I just can not brew in an open air environment, it's way to cold, and ventilation is not an option in my current home. The other four of five months, I have to worry about the sweet smell of boiling wort drawing bears out of the nearby parks and undeveloped areas, while I love sharing my homebrew, I'm not keen on sharing it with a 600 lb killing machine who's got a sweet tooth.
When my wife and I move into our "Forever Home" (as she calls it) I'll be able to custom build my home brewery, ventilation and everything, but for right now I have to stick with what I have.
 
Homercidal said:
I'm doing electric to have better mash control and to get rid of the requirement to have propane on hand.

As a bonus, I'll be getting rid of the turbo jet noise from the burner.
Click to expand...

The quiet is a big relief .. 2 advantages of electric are the quiet, and automation...water is hot when I wake up

I mash in the basement with electric, usually very early on the weekend. I don't bother anyone.

boil on the porch with propane, outside..I need to get a good ventilation system and an electric BK for the basement to complete the setup..The bucket heaters for the HLT cooler are setup using simple timers..don't know how to automate propane.
 
I'm converting to electric because I'm a cheap bastard and don't want to pay for propane or listen to that dam burner anymore. I'm also an electrician so it's not that difficult for me to convert.
 

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