Grapefruit flavor in my IPAs!

Hi all. I've been trying to nail down a good house IPA, and the past two batches I've gotten a very pronounced grapefruit flavor. Don't get me wrong, I like some hints of grapefruit but this is overpowering and the bitterness backbone feels like it's all grapefruit. This last batch it was Galaxy and Nugget for bittering (not known for grapefruit as far as I know), Galaxy, Nugget & Citra for flavor. Citra for aroma. Dry hopped with Citra, Simcoe & Cascade. Now, I've been reading a good bit, and it seems like the big grapefruit hops are amarillo, simcoe, centennial, chinook, columbus & cascade. I didn't use any of those for bittering. The prior IPA I brewed was also very grapefruit (almost too much for me to like it) and it was bittered with Nugget & simcoe. Probably got some of it from the simcoe on that one.

However, one of the only other commonalities between many of my prior IPAs that have had this grapefruit flavor & aftertaste has been the use of Cascade for dry hop. I know dry hops are supposed to be all aroma, but has anyone done any sampling to prove that it doesn't add anything to the beer as far as flavor? I'm starting to suspect that the cascade dry hops are adding this bold grapefruit flavor & after taste. Is this possible? Any other thoughts?

gifty74 said:

I didn't use any of those for bittering.

I know dry hops are supposed to be all aroma, but has anyone done any sampling to prove that it doesn't add anything to the beer as far as flavor?

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bittering doesn't add any flavor

a large percentage of your taste is based on aroma

Cascade is certainly grapefruity and smell is definitely linked to taste. Just think of the last time you had a cold and how little flavor everything had. Aroma is a huge component of how we perceive how things taste.

Thanks for the feedback. All I know is that the aroma is great when I first take in a sip, tons of mango/pear, very fruity. Then after swallowing there's a very bitter/sour aftertaste that's almost EXACTLY what I get when eating a grapefruit for breakfast. I generally sprinkle just a little sugar on a grapefruit because a lot of them are sour. Its that exact flavor, and it stays on the tongue for a long while.

Could it possibly be a water chemistry issue? I ask because I truly don't know the answer.

its the citra

gifty74 said:

Thanks for the feedback. All I know is that the aroma is great when I first take in a sip, tons of mango/pear, very fruity. Then after swallowing there's a very bitter/sour aftertaste that's almost EXACTLY what I get when eating a grapefruit for breakfast. I generally sprinkle just a little sugar on a grapefruit because a lot of them are sour. Its that exact flavor, and it stays on the tongue for a long while.

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From your hop schedule, I would expect there to be a lot of grapefruit flavor in those beers. Try using less citra, cascade, and amarillo. You may want to stay away from those all together, especially the citra.

Keep in mind that all of the citrusy/grapefruity flavors will come from your later hop additions, especially the dry-hops.

gifty74 said:

Hi all. I've been trying to nail down a good house IPA, and the past two batches I've gotten a very pronounced grapefruit flavor. Don't get me wrong, I like some hints of grapefruit but this is overpowering and the bitterness backbone feels like it's all grapefruit. This last batch it was Galaxy and Nugget for bittering (not known for grapefruit as far as I know), Galaxy, Nugget & Citra for flavor. Citra for aroma. Dry hopped with Citra, Simcoe & Cascade. Now, I've been reading a good bit, and it seems like the big grapefruit hops are amarillo, simcoe, centennial, chinook, columbus & cascade. I didn't use any of those for bittering. The prior IPA I brewed was also very grapefruit (almost too much for me to like it) and it was bittered with Nugget & simcoe. Probably got some of it from the simcoe on that one.

However, one of the only other commonalities between many of my prior IPAs that have had this grapefruit flavor & aftertaste has been the use of Cascade for dry hop. I know dry hops are supposed to be all aroma, but has anyone done any sampling to prove that it doesn't add anything to the beer as far as flavor? I'm starting to suspect that the cascade dry hops are adding this bold grapefruit flavor & after taste. Is this possible? Any other thoughts?

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Bittering hops will only add bitterness, not aroma, meaning you'll get no grapefruit from them. The bitterness may add the perception of grapefruit, when combined with the citrus aromas from your aroma hops.

I think you're confused about the relationship between flavor, taste, and aroma. Flavor = taste (from taste buds) + aroma (from the olfactory receptors). The taste buds can actually only detect four tastes: bitter, sweet, salty, sour. Everything else is aroma detected by the olfactories. When the two are mixed, the brain interprets flavor. The point is, aroma is not just smell, but it is also flavor. This is why the bittering hops won't have an effect of how grapefruity your beers come out. It all has to do with the late hop additions providing aroma.

Thanks, great info, mostly from experience from the way it sounds. So, I guess a little citrus is good in an IPA, but to balance that with the more earthy/piney/spicy flavors what would you recommend for a hop bill? I know, kind of a broad question, but any suggestions for hops that will give me a more DFH 60 or 90 min type flavor? I saw most of the clone recipes for those (just using them as an example because they are smooth and don't scream grapefruit) use amarillo and simcoe, which I thought were pretty grapefruity.

I think simcoe tends to be more piney than grapefruity. If you have a copy of Brewing Classic Styles, or can get your hands on one, there's a chart in there that's fairly decent. It shows hops in relation to their predominant flavors, piney/herbal/earthy/citrusy, etc. I think that's not a bad place to start.

You can't really add aroma without adding flavor, they come together- as explained by some of the previous posts.

Also cascade is pretty much a straight grapefruit bomb and it can easily overtake other hops when you're talking dry hopping.

Great, thanks for the info. I see you have two versions of pale ale kegged and on deck. What hop profiles are you going after in those? What were your bitter/flavor/aroma hops for those? Are you getting the profile you want?

If you don't want a huge grapefruit profile, stay away from citra and cascade (which are two of my favorite hops). Try something with a lot of centennial. I find it's more fruity citrus rather than that harsher grapefruit type flavor. Or go with spicy/piney hops.

gifty74 said:

Thanks, great info, mostly from experience from the way it sounds. So, I guess a little citrus is good in an IPA, but to balance that with the more earthy/piney/spicy flavors what would you recommend for a hop bill? I know, kind of a broad question, but any suggestions for hops that will give me a more DFH 60 or 90 min type flavor? I saw most of the clone recipes for those (just using them as an example because they are smooth and don't scream grapefruit) use amarillo and simcoe, which I thought were pretty grapefruity.

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DFH 60 and 90 is bittered with warrior and continuously hopped for the boil with a mixture of amarillo and simcoe

Yooper has a great recipe in the recipe database

gifty74 said:

Great, thanks for the info. I see you have two versions of pale ale kegged and on deck. What hop profiles are you going after in those? What were your bitter/flavor/aroma hops for those? Are you getting the profile you want?

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I've been iterating on the same recipe trying to nail down both the malt bill and the hop profile for my house pale ale. They both came out really good and were really nice beers but I'm still tweaking.

The first two versions use Chinook and Cascade for flavor/aroma. I was going for a piney, resiny hop character with some citrus notes. The first version was heavier on the chinook and it had this harshness to it that I attribute to bittering with Chinook as well. Version 2 was bittered with Magnum which got rid of the harshness. V2 was pretty balanced between the Cascade/Chinook but leaned more toward Chinook which is what I wanted- that piney and mildly spicy flavor up front.

For my next version I realized that it's missing a fruity/resiny character that I want so I'm keeping the same balance of Cascade/Chinook and adding Amarillo. I'm also changing the malt bill- cutting out some crystal and switching back to an all pale malt base. I tried half Maris Otter for version 2 and although the toasty flavors are fantastic with Chinook, it was way too dark and toasty for my pale.

Let me know if you're interested in any of the recipes- I've got tasting notes for all of them. I'll post the final recipe when I'm happy with it for sure.

my amarillo SMaSH was a total grapefruit bomb. i loved it, since i love grapefruit, but i'd suspect that as your source of grapefruitiness. i've only completed on beer to date with citra (second one is currently bubbling away in the basement), and i didn't get as much grapefruit from it as i did with amarillo. citra, to me, was more lemon & lime.

sweetcell said:

my amarillo SMaSH was a total grapefruit bomb. i loved it, since i love grapefruit, but i'd suspect that as your source of grapefruitiness. i've only completed on beer to date with citra (second one is currently bubbling away in the basement), and i didn't get as much grapefruit from it as i did with amarillo. citra, to me, was more lemon & lime.

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Interesting. I've never gotten Grapefruit from Amarillo- it was always more of an orangey, resiny, slightly mango sort of flavor. Could be different crops or just perception.

I recently heard a John Palmer interview in which he stated that too-alkaline water can lead to harsh hop bitterness.

I've been getting a very grapefruity bitter aftertaste with my Bavarian Hefeweizen in which I use only Hallertau for bittering. I usually use store-bought spring water and don't pay attention to the pH. I'm going to try controlling the pH in my next batch to see if that helps reduce the harshness.