Brew on Premise Laws

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TreeHugger

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Hello all,
I live in Indianapolis and have recently discovered that the state's Alcohol and Tobacco commission has decided not to allow Brew-on-Premises establishments to operate within the state's borders. I want to open one in the state and need some assistance.

Has anyone experienced having to fight a commission or eliminating an ordinace/law at the state level? Particularly in the alcohol business?

I dont want to give up on this and will fight my ass off to make it happen.

Thoughts?
 
Sam Cologonie of Dogfish head had to fight Delawares law of no brewerys are aloud inside the state. Before he opened the dogfish head brew pub. Maybe write them a message.
 
It will depend whether it is a statute or a regulation promulgated by the state ABC. If it is a statute then the legislature will have to amend the law. If it is an administrative regulation than the agency will have to repeal the regulation and probably pass a new regulation permitting it, depending upon the limitations in the statutory language.

You will probably have to spend a lot of time (and money) lobbying the "right" people to make the change.
 
It is def not a state law. I proposed the idea and the ATC basically discussed the premise and decided they were not comfortable allowing a set up such as this. Ive got the time and money, it is more personal now and I feel like being a maverick.

Any idea how the "right" people would be? I initially think of the local congressman/woman but who knows.
 
You're going to want to speak with a lawyer who can research the law and tell you whether the law permits BOP or specifically what prohibits it. That's going to determine what your next steps are.

It may be the case that the state law is silent to the whole issue and there is nothing to stop you from doing it. An agency decision, made arbitrarily without authority under statute or established rule, lacks authority to be enforced. So just because they said they don't like the idea it doesn't mean that they can stop you from doing it (although they may come raid your shop and force you to defend it in court). Sometimes it makes sense to go to court and obtain an order to prevent the ATC from shutting you down. There are situations where the best way to win is to proceed with the business and fight it out in court. Since Indiana does not have a specific permit for BOP you might have to argue that BOP is within the homebrew statutes and it does not also fall within any other required brewing permit requirements. Of course if you lose you might face penalties, taxes, imprisonment, forfeiture of business assets, etc.

In the alternative, you could lobby your state legislature to carve out a BOP permit that protects what you want to do. You probably need to coordinate a large, state-wide lobby effort of the state legislature along with the local homebrew clubs. Most likely you will need your state legislature to carve out a new permit for BOP. An attorney should be able to find a consulting firm or law firm that can map out an effective lobbying effort.
 
You're going to want to speak with a lawyer who can research the law and tell you whether the law permits BOP or specifically what prohibits it. That's going to determine what your next steps are.

It may be the case that the state law is silent to the whole issue and there is nothing to stop you from doing it. An agency decision, made arbitrarily without authority under statute or established rule, lacks authority to be enforced. So just because they said they don't like the idea it doesn't mean that they can stop you from doing it (although they may come raid your shop and force you to defend it in court). Sometimes it makes sense to go to court and obtain an order to prevent the ATC from shutting you down. There are situations where the best way to win is to proceed with the business and fight it out in court. Since Indiana does not have a specific permit for BOP you might have to argue that BOP is within the homebrew statutes and it does not also fall within any other required brewing permit requirements. Of course if you lose you might face penalties, taxes, imprisonment, forfeiture of business assets, etc.

In the alternative, you could lobby your state legislature to carve out a BOP permit that protects what you want to do. You probably need to coordinate a large, state-wide lobby effort of the state legislature along with the local homebrew clubs. Most likely you will need your state legislature to carve out a new permit for BOP. An attorney should be able to find a consulting firm or law firm that can map out an effective lobbying effort.

Thank you for the insights here Apache. I have done some research and there is indeed no speicfic provision in the state laws preventing someone from operating a BOP; but I am not aware of the ATC's authority to enforce a mandate that they originate. The state Master Sheriff in charge of liquor and tobacco enforcement has actually been awesome; he is helping me tailor my pitch and submitting it directly to the ATC commissioner.

I am submitting a couple more options to the ATC on Monday. I figure they want revenue and have not thought through the excise tax dollars and permit fees a business such as this would generate.
 
Yeah, if the initial rejection came from a flunky at the ATC, then the person you want to talk to is the head of the ATC. If HE poo-poos the idea, then you have to go over his head, probably to the secretary of state or governor's office. If there's no law against it, then all you need is someone in that chain of command to issue an official OK and probably some paperwork as verification. But you'll also want to talk to those same people about establishing a permit system so it can be made official and regulated (they like that word). That prevents the initial flunky from trying to pull strings to get the OK overturned because he's all butthurt that you went over his head.
 
TreeHugger said:
The state Master Sheriff in charge of liquor and tobacco enforcement has actually been awesome; he is helping me tailor my pitch and submitting it directly to the ATC commissioner.

This seems like a helpful approach, approach it as a negotiation, figure out what their objections are and address them.
 
Contact the American Homebrewer's Association, they might already have folks on this.

Another good idea to reach out to the AHBA; seems as if they are willing to help with legalization movements. I just finished up sending an email to the Director over there. Not sure if they worry about BOP, but it seems to me that by not allowing a BOP(which is essentially homebrewing at someone else's home because they have better equipment) then that is one step away from stripping many rights of general home brewers.
 
I on the same path here in new york, NYS has no law regarding BOP or for that matter home brewing. Just that if you make alcohol and SELL it you need a license and NYS's ABC consider BOP trafficking in alcoholic beverages (or at least one of the hacks answering the email) and therefore is illegal with out license. I Have a lawyer in my club that is going to help me and see if a BOP can be operated in a way that can keep it from being considered trafficking in alcoholic beverages.
Keep me posted on your journey and I do the same.
 
The fed. Government has clear laws regarding BOP but only a few states do, really if the laws of your state are not clear or a presecedence (sp?) wasn't set you'll need your own lawyer regardless of what you were told by anyone in your states government. The other way is to get a state senator to sponsor it and one way or another define how a BOP can operate.
 
First of all, keep us posted or give us a blog or website that we can check up on to see your progress. It seems to me that BOP's are a relatively untapped business model in the USA.

A lot of people have journeyed down this road (towards starting a BOP), but few have actually gone through with it, most seemingly due to legislative road blocks. Let us know what kind of progress you make!
 
How do you plan on providing supplies to your brewing clients? Are you going to be selling them premade recipe kits, or kits you design?
 
I on the same path here in new york, NYS has no law regarding BOP or for that matter home brewing. Just that if you make alcohol and SELL it you need a license and NYS's ABC consider BOP trafficking in alcoholic beverages (or at least one of the hacks answering the email) and therefore is illegal with out license. I Have a lawyer in my club that is going to help me and see if a BOP can be operated in a way that can keep it from being considered trafficking in alcoholic beverages.
Keep me posted on your journey and I do the same.

Hey man,
we should probably start a dialogue. I am sure we canhelp each other in a variety of ways to help make this happen forus both.

email me some time
[email protected]
 
How do you plan on providing supplies to your brewing clients? Are you going to be selling them premade recipe kits, or kits you design?

No kits for BOP. With most breweries all recipes have to registered. So, I would provide about a dozen recipes of the most popular styles and eventually expand the choices as we expand.

I think some BOP allow for some tweaking of their recipes; unsure if there are regulations(there are so many) against this.
 
First of all, keep us posted or give us a blog or website that we can check up on to see your progress. It seems to me that BOP's are a relatively untapped business model in the USA.

A lot of people have journeyed down this road (towards starting a BOP), but few have actually gone through with it, most seemingly due to legislative road blocks. Let us know what kind of progress you make!


I have started the next best thing. It seems Facebook is better for quick updates and dialogue back and forth as opposedto a blogpage. Too much management.

Follow my journey by friending(is that officially a word now?) me on Facebook @YouBrew.

Thanks for the encouragement
 
I didn't see any one else put this up yet so here's what I was saying about the Fed's definitions of BOP
The recipes are ether up to the state or the BOP owner depending on the state.
On the Sunday session about Ohio brewers they talk to the owner of the Brew Kettle(a BOP) about his BOP they can only brew recipes registered w/ Ohio's TTB.
 
Not sure if they worry about BOP, but it seems to me that by not allowing a BOP(which is essentially homebrewing at someone else's home because they have better equipment) then that is one step away from stripping many rights of general home brewers.

The big difference is that there's a commercial aspect. That invokes several state concerns, such as revenue, public health, public safety, etc.
 
I didn't see any one else put this up yet so here's what I was saying about the Fed's definitions of BOP
The recipes are ether up to the state or the BOP owner depending on the state.
On the Sunday session about Ohio brewers they talk to the owner of the Brew Kettle(a BOP) about his BOP they can only brew recipes registered w/ Ohio's TTB.

Great info here. Does any of this trump the state rulings?
 
Update for this thread. Looks like it is going to be WAY too much red tape to get a BOP law approved in Indiana. doing the next best thing. A brew supply shop that also sells produced beers for pick up via growlers. I will have experienced home brewers compete to have their product produced(by the winner) and sold at the location. This would be considered an employee and is 100% legal in the state.

We would then split the proceeds of any sales on site.

Follow my journey and talk home brew @YouBrew via facebook
 
Update for this thread. Looks like it is going to be WAY too much red tape to get a BOP law approved in Indiana. doing the next best thing. A brew supply shop that also sells produced beers for pick up via growlers. I will have experienced home brewers compete to have their product produced(by the winner) and sold at the location. This would be considered an employee and is 100% legal in the state.

We would then split the proceeds of any sales on site.

Follow my journey and talk home brew @YouBrew via facebook

That's a shame, my wife and I were actually talking about the idea of a BOP by us. I wonder if Michigan's laws are more friendly, we are less than 10 minutes from michigan.
 
another shop in wv that wants to do bop in wv.

mountain man wine and brew supply.we would like to offer that to prospective homebrewers in the panhandle.

any one have info on beer or wine on premises in wv?
 
another shop in wv that wants to do bop in wv.

mountain man wine and brew supply.we would like to offer that to prospective homebrewers in the panhandle.

any one have info on beer or wine on premises in wv?

There are a couple in wv, there is morgantown brewing company obviously in morgantown. They BOP and have nice big windows looking into the brewing area from part of the bar. They even have homebrewing classes which I havent attended yet but want to. I http://www.morgantownbrewing.com/

There is also Mountain State Brewing. I believe they brew in their store in Thomas, WV (near blackwater falls), but they have a couple other pubs one in Morgantown and another in deep creek, md. I am not 100% sure the BOP in Thomas as I was only there once briefly. Their pizza is awesome though as well. http://mountainstatebrewing.com/

I have heard Bent Willey's bar in morgantown also has a small brewery on site but its more of a college bar and I haven't been in there in probably 5-6 years at least. BA has it listed so they may still have it. http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/7261 but Id guess its pretty bad and just catering to the college kids.

Also there is Blackwater Brewing I ate there as well the beer wasnt to bad if I remember its been a few years its also near blackwater falls. They serve some german food and Im sure thats why we ate there. http://www.blackwater-brewing.com/
 
Based on everything I've read here (as it pertains to the OP), I'm afraid it amounts to one of the most dreaded sentences I can imagine: "Sounds like you need a lawyer."*

*Note: That sentence is in quotes because I'm not saying anyone needs a lawyer. I lack sufficient information about the laws and regulations of the State of Indiana. What I would be more likely to say is "It looks like you MAY need a lawyer, or not, and I pray to God you don't."
 
There are a couple in wv, there is morgantown brewing company obviously in morgantown. They BOP and have nice big windows looking into the brewing area from part of the bar. They even have homebrewing classes which I havent attended yet but want to. I http://www.morgantownbrewing.com/

There is also Mountain State Brewing. I believe they brew in their store in Thomas, WV (near blackwater falls), but they have a couple other pubs one in Morgantown and another in deep creek, md. I am not 100% sure the BOP in Thomas as I was only there once briefly. Their pizza is awesome though as well. http://mountainstatebrewing.com/

I have heard Bent Willey's bar in morgantown also has a small brewery on site but its more of a college bar and I haven't been in there in probably 5-6 years at least. BA has it listed so they may still have it. http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/7261 but Id guess its pretty bad and just catering to the college kids.

Also there is Blackwater Brewing I ate there as well the beer wasnt to bad if I remember its been a few years its also near blackwater falls. They serve some german food and Im sure thats why we ate there. http://www.blackwater-brewing.com/
thank you for the replies fella's.
but we are not interested in being a brew pub. we would like to offer b.o.p. for wine and beer. as well as brewing supplies.
we would offer a place to brew a recipe of you're choosing from our books with our oversight and training. we would store your beer or wine in progress and when it needs bottling or racking, you return and go through the process with us.

we are trying to take a model from the cracked cork or flying barrel in maryland and apply it to our shop in wv. in md there is a license called "family beer and wine facility permit" that allows all that and then some.

md pa va all have fairly liberal laws regarding homebrewing but wva is a bit backwards. they regulate "non-alcoholic beer " as being of .5% to 9.5%. and homebrewed wine seems illegal. dont get it.

we are sitting with an attorney today to find out more.
 
1MountainMan...you ever find out what the laws/regulations are for BOP in WV? Thinking about starting something up...
 
we did get it in writing that there is no license that governs a b.o.p/ w.o.p.

and they did not say that we couldnt do it.

so we are off and running and following the rules and regulations set forth by the feds that governs b.o.p./ w.o.p... ttb regs 27 cfr 25.205-25.206
 
Hi, I'm from the government and I'm here to help you. :eek:

Never get between the government and your money, never!

Rick
 
we did get it in writing that there is no license that governs a b.o.p/ w.o.p.

and they did not say that we couldnt do it.

so we are off and running and following the rules and regulations set forth by the feds that governs b.o.p./ w.o.p... ttb regs 27 cfr 25.205-25.206

We were talking about this in another thread a while back. Obviously it is legal at a federal level for a BOP to operate. It seems to me though that all the restrictions they place on you regarding who can do what while making the beer aren't actually legal restrictions. They aren't in the text of the law anywhere..but rather are TTB guidelines which aren't enforceable. They even say they are guidelines here...http://www.ttb.gov/beer/beer-faqs.shtml#b1. Any thoughts?
 
exactly. thats where we got our info.

so being that wv really has no license that governs our industry we felt that conforming to ttb guidelines would be the way to go just in case the law were to step in and demand to see what we are doing.

we did not want to press the issue with wvabc since the laws are about as clear as mud. hell the way they classify beer is just ridiculous."nonintoxicating beer" is .5% to 6%.
 
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