How do homebrew stores even stay in business?

My nearest LHBS is in Topeka, about an hour's drive. Now, Topeka is not the kind of town that's really going to draw people in, let's just leave it at that. Nobody in my town goes to Topeka for excitement, because Kansas City is only an hour further.

Anyway, I went in there a couple weeks ago to pick up some Wyeast 1056 or Safale 56 (they don't carry white labs.) I had a few other errands to run in Topeka, and yeast is one thing I'd rather not mail order if I can avoid it.

They were out of both. Had nothing that could acceptably substitute.

Of course, neither their prices nor their selection can compete with More Beer or Austin Homebrew or the like.

A LHBS is in a real catch-22: ingredients are perishable and obviously they don't want to have a huge inventory of yeast, hops, etc. But if they can't compete on price and selection, and they don't have something as basic as 1056 in stock, why are people going to go there?

(Besides, it's in a seedy neghborhood and the store reeks of cat urine...)

It's got to be a tough business to make a go of.

I used to go to one in s.f. that was opened in 1979! The place sucked ass though, the guy would store his whole hops in sandwich bags sitting on a shelf exposed to sunlight and everything. I would only go there when my other, new school shop was closed, or in emergencies. Me and my friends would talk mad sh*t about the guy too. Turns out the guy died, and afterwards everybody was talking about what a homebrewing legend this guy was, he was one of the first hbs in the country! (his name was Steve somthing)

Now i look back and think Wow! i lived in a city that had 2 lhbs! Crazy!!!

My guy says that he barely does make it and that if his wife didn't have a good job, that he wouldn't. He has a pretty decent selection also. this is in a metro area with 5 brewery/restaurants!

Over the years, I've seen 3 pretty nice LHBS close down. I think it's pretty hard to turn a profit these days with a store that specializes in one area. I'm sure wine making helps but even then, how many people make their own wine?
For the good of the hobby, we need to get more people making their own beer and wine!

The guy I go to tells me that the wine kits are a huge part of the business. He's tried to focus on the specialty grains/all grain section of the market, and it seems to be paying off. He's the only guy in Manitoba who stocks grains.
I'm happy to have found him, and I'll do whatever I can to send more business his way. He's been a great help.

My LHBS does wine, homebrew, and hydroponics stuff. I believe he stays open (and probably makes some money) because he is a valuable resource and has a really good attitude. Instead of having to do a bunch of research if you are a newbie, you could just go to this guy and start talking to him and he'd tell you everything you needed to know.

Yeah, and we've got to do our part if we want to keep them and buy locally instead of ordering online! Mine usually ends up a buck or two cheaper anyway, once you figure shipping.

God Emporer BillyBrew said:

this is in a metro area

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I thought you lived in OKC.

God Emporer BillyBrew said:

Yeah, and we've got to do our part if we want to keep them and buy locally instead of ordering online! Mine usually ends up a buck or two cheaper anyway, once you figure shipping.

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That's my problem: I'd really like to support the birck&morter business, but it's just too hard. With it costing $40 to fill the gas tank (erasing any advantage of not paying shipping), and their prices and selection crappy...

I try to run in there whenever I'm in the area...to pick up nickle and dime stuff or yeast if they have what I need.

You'd think maybe with craft brewing and brew pubs flourishing, more of these guys might be able to pick up the retail HBS slack. A brewpub would have sh-tloads of grain, hops and yeast on hand--seems like it wouldn't be that big a stretch to maintain a small retail HB shop that's open a couple days a week or something.

Plus you know they'd always sell a pint or two to guys like us once they got us on the premises.

I like my HBS because the guys are friendly and reasonably knowledgeable (especially when the previous owner is hanging around). They run a professional store with a good selection and their prices are fair. Therefore, I try to support them and plan for buying ingredients when I'm in that area.

However, they are ~30 minutes from my house, and if I'm not going to be up that way I have no compunction whatsoever from ordering over the web which, even with shipping, is less expensive than making a special trip, and the variety is much greater.

El Pistolero said:

I thought you lived in OKC.

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Smart@ss!

The one closest to me, also has a license to sell beer and wine for off premises consumption. He stocks all the kinds of craft brews, and sells chilled singles as well as six-packs. Too bad even with his selection, he doesn't carry Hop Rod Rye. I would love to try it.

Another store across town, has a better selection of brewing (and winemaking) supplies, which I'm sure helps. No cold beer, but a really nice place. Well lit. Special cold room where beer kits, grain, extracts are kept.

Both do a big business in wine kits. I suspect your more upwardly mobile wine makers buying kits and supplies, helps both places.

The winos keep most of them alive. Homebrewers tend to be cheap. A home wine maker will spend ten times the money on equipment, the ingredients are more expensive ($80-$200 per batch) and they don't expect free samples. The one I used in Oakland, CA made 70% of their annual profits during the two month wine season. The McMinneville shop is mainly a commercial wine equipment store. The one I use in Corvallis is actually the "backroom" for a wine shop! I guess I'm willing to go a little further than most people for makings, but it's ten minutes to my mail box and I'm used to driving a lot.

Most small brewers don't have the time to do retail. Also, they only use a small range of grains and yeasts. Trying to do both would kill them.

cweston said:

...it's in a seedy neghborhood and the store reeks of cat urine...

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That's the Pale Ale kit....

I'm from Rhode Island and there are 3 or 4 LHBS in my area (including Southern Massachusetts. The one I use (If you're from the area - Blackstone Valley Brewing Supply in Woonsockett). He is open Wednesday - Sunday and has excellent quality grains and products. The owner os an award winning homebrewer and is very knowledable. He has been open over 10 years.

The guy I go to is in a densely populated area (lots of brewers and wine makers close by) but in a storefront that probably has no great rent requirement (who knows? maybe my guy even owns the building). He is a retired executive who presumably has a decent retirement income, so revenue generation is maybe not a big deal. His prices are OK (maybe not the absolute best) but I will not look elsewhere or buy on line because his value to me a consultant can't be reckoned in dollars. This is about as good as you could hope for, I think.

I guess I'm lucky. There are three stores in my county. One is a microbrew. Good business, samples, good prices, but kind dingey HB store. I think the net sales helps them too. Another one is clean and bright, prices about 10% higher, not as much business. The other hasn't been open during their posted business hours on two attempts, but does advertise classes.

Like any other business, some owners are serious, some retirees with a hobby/write-off/tax shelter of the wifes income? ( Gee honey, with the money I make in real estate I can buy a $60,000 porsche SUV, and you can call it a 'delivery truck'. Your business will make only $4,000 profit after paying 15,000 this year for the Porsche, but I'll still get my SUV tax free. Can I hunny, huh? huh? huh?)

I guess a guy who don't open, or has a food store that smells of cat piss, ain't serious about sales.

SteveM said:

The guy I go to is in a densely populated area (lots of brewers and wine makers close by) but in a storefront that probably has no great rent requirement (who knows? maybe my guy even owns the building). He is a retired executive who presumably has a decent retirement income, so revenue generation is maybe not a big deal. His prices are OK (maybe not the absolute best) but I will not look elsewhere or buy on line because his value to me a consultant can't be reckoned in dollars. This is about as good as you could hope for, I think.

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do you go to Brew Your Own Beer in Havertown?

cweston said:

You'd think maybe with craft brewing and brew pubs flourishing, more of these guys might be able to pick up the retail HBS slack. A brewpub would have sh-tloads of grain, hops and yeast on hand--seems like it wouldn't be that big a stretch to maintain a small retail HB shop that's open a couple days a week or something.

Plus you know they'd always sell a pint or two to guys like us once they got us on the premises.

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My LHBS http://www.thebrewhut.com/ did it the other way around. They recently opened a small brew pup www.drydockbrewing.com. It will be interesting to see how this works out. I hope it thrives because I really like the place and it is close. They have a fantastic selection of ingredients and supplies.

cweston said:

My nearest LHBS is in Topeka, about an hour's drive. Now, Topeka is not the kind of town that's really going to draw people in, let's just leave it at that. Nobody in my town goes to Topeka for excitement, because Kansas City is only an hour further.

Anyway, I went in there a couple weeks ago to pick up some Wyeast 1056 or Safale 56 (they don't carry white labs.) I had a few other errands to run in Topeka, and yeast is one thing I'd rather not mail order if I can avoid it.

They were out of both. Had nothing that could acceptably substitute.

Of course, neither their prices nor their selection can compete with More Beer or Austin Homebrew or the like.

A LHBS is in a real catch-22: ingredients are perishable and obviously they don't want to have a huge inventory of yeast, hops, etc. But if they can't compete on price and selection, and they don't have something as basic as 1056 in stock, why are people going to go there?

(Besides, it's in a seedy neghborhood and the store reeks of cat urine...)

It's got to be a tough business to make a go of.

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It depends on the store and the location, I suppose. My local store, in Los Altos, CA, is pretty good on ingredients, but not always so great on equipment. However, I always go there first, because I enjoy going to the shop, looking at stuff, and talking shop with the employees and other customers. Even if they don't have anything for my, just going is a pleasurable experience. I think a lot of homebrewers/vintners are like this, it isn't just the access to goods that keeps us coming back.

Lou said:

do you go to Brew Your Own Beer in Havertown?

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Sure do - I mentioned in the thread on the fruit beers that I live in Broomall (not far from Lawrence Road), so he is about a five or ten minute drive from my house. If you went there, and someone had a beer open that they brewed, it might have been mine - I never buy new supplies without bringing in a bottle or two of something that is in prime condition to share.

SteveM said:

Sure do - I mentioned in the thread on the fruit beers that I live in Broomall (not far from Lawrence Road), so he is about a five or ten minute drive from my house. If you went there, and someone had a beer open that they brewed, it might have been mine - I never buy new supplies without bringing in a bottle or two of something that is in prime condition to share.

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i've been a few times on the weekend... but i've been going to Home Sweet Homebrew in Philly recently since I work in the city and can get to HSH after work on weeknights. john's a real nice guy -- i hadnt yet made anything drinkable the few times i went there, but i did sample some of the beer he had around.

The store I go to is always hoppin. At least one more customer than they can handle at any given time due to the nature of having to run around and mill/get ingredients, etc. I'm sure they do okay, oh and the wine side helps no doubt!

Any decent HBS is going to be more than just a room with stuff on shelves. They'll be a resource, kinda like this forum (wait-- did I just make an arguement to close this forum-- NOOO!) where someone can go to get advice, suggestions, ideas and plain old sympathy for a brew gone sour.

I also like a LHBS because I can put my hands on the thing I'm buying and see that it's what I expected. Also, I can take my current gear in to make sure that the fitting is going to fit. I can check the dates on the supplies I'm buying and know I'm getting fresh stuff.

My guy is sweet, the store is completely randomly located on the main street here in Athens across from a wal-mart and off of a residential street with a bar on one corner and a car dealership on the other. He is awesome and super-extremely nice and helpful. He always has something new on tap, just the other day he had a Bass Clone and a week or two before that a strong imperial stout. At first I thought he was small-time but after learning all i have learned in the past year it turns out the guys has a lot to offer both in terms of ideas/help and also with selection. He has 10 kinds of leaf hops, 15 pellet varieties, 19 different types of grain and any malt extract you can think of as well as a lot of yeast. He also knows like I like 22 oz. Samuel Smith Bottles and he hooks me up with some everytime i come in for free or for 10 cents a piece...

I have one in the area, but I'm definately paying for convenience. They actualy store is a beer store, with a great selection, but the guy who manages the homebrew section doesn't seem to be there very often. The rest of the store is family owned and the english is often broken and the help with homebrew stuff is often zero. There is a good selection of grains, beer kits and extracts, my only complaint is that all the grains are pre-packaged in either 1 or 5 lb. packages, which isn't so bad, unless I only want 0.25 lbs. of something for a recipe. The convenince of location is worth the price as I figure I have this board as a resource.

As stated before wine makers are about 2-3 times larger market than home brewers. At least thats what my guy at my LHBS said. ANd I must be in a great area for that kind of stuff because I have 4-5 LHBS in my area(man it's great being a cheese head). The yeast and hops at the two I go to are refigerated at all times and the people are friendly too. And the guy at the frugal homebrewer in waukesha is superb with his info.

My LHBS is a pretty good place. www.steinfillers.com It's about 20 minutes away down the freeway in Long Beach. Everyone there is knowlegable and their prices are every reasonable, especially when figuering in shipping online. The homebrewing club in Long Beach also meets there, so there is always a beer, cider, mead, or wine fermenting. Usually some combination of three. They have been helpful from day one, when I walked in just to pick up the book How to Brew. Aside from equipment that I can make myself, I get just about everything else from them. I hope they stay in business a long time.

Brewsmith said:

My LHBS is a pretty good place. www.steinfillers.com It's about 20 minutes away down the freeway in Long Beach. Everyone there is knowlegable and their prices are every reasonable, especially when figuering in shipping online. The homebrewing club in Long Beach also meets there, so there is always a beer, cider, mead, or wine fermenting. Usually some combination of three. They have been helpful from day one, when I walked in just to pick up the book How to Brew. Aside from equipment that I can make myself, I get just about everything else from them. I hope they stay in business a long time.

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I'm going to be in Long Beach the first part of may. I might try to find that place for fun.

our lhbs is a micro brewer as well.

We have a full blown brew/wine shop and the guy is great - keeps all fresh stock and has a pretty big selection of standard goods. even has carboys in the back room fermenting, has classes, grows his own hops and has a cool cat that chills around the store. we also have a beer and pop place that is huge with commercial and micros and sells a mid size selection of kits and some grains and equipment (lots of older stock though so it is the way last resort)

I like to buy local if possible but making a recipe I want it all then not wait a week or more to get on an order for something so it is tough. prices are higher than mailorder on most but not out of line with tax and everything.

I have to say with modern homebrewing techniques these forums are the place to be sometimes I feel like I know more than these guys and I don't know anything! they are helpful though I'll give them that.

I guess it is all in how much you want to learn in life to expand your knowledge - be it your passion in life or "the job that pays for your life"

all in all thanks to anyone who contributes to these forums looks like most everyone feels the same about local shops

Interesting point about how fresh ingredients are. If you order yeast online versus asking the HB store to order it, I wonder how much difference there would actually be. Of course, the shipping temp factors in as well.

Another point about a good HB store being 'more than just stuff on shelves...'
Imagine going to the grocery store and the clerk asking you, "Hey, what are you making with all this stuff?" Or asking the butcher how to prepare a specific marinade (I once asked what type of fish was best for a fish fry because they were out of cod-- he said he didn't have any idea). HB stores definitely have that atmosphere because it's such a small market.

I have a friend who owns a brewpub and initially tried to stock homebrew supplies. He just didn't make enough off it to make it worth his time. He'll still sell a bag of grain if a homebrewer asks him, but selling the rest of it was a bust.

Keeping fresh supplies wasn't hard, because he was always ordering plenty for his own beer. The problem was that he just didn't make enough to be worth the hassle.

I have always wondered how they stay in business...

The owners have to love it... How many of us are always looking for an audience to talk about beer? These guys get to do it with everyone that comes through the front door.

I'm about an hour away from my HBS and ordering online creates huge shipping costs especially if you are ordering like 20#s of grain. My batches are easily getting over $40 per 5 gal and although thats not too expensive, I can't do it every month. I started ordering my grains in bulk to save on money (which ultimately takes away from the LHBS but otherwise I just wouldn't brew)

Long story short, I wouldn't open a LHBS unless I had other income streams and I could do it basically as a retired hobby...

....There's nothing like the aroma of entering the LHBS!

Trubbub said:

I'm about an hour away from my HBS and ordering online creates huge shipping costs especially if you are ordering like 20#s of grain.

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You do know there are places that offer free shipping for orders over a certain amount (usually $60), right? MoreBeer and Austin Homebrew Supply are the two I know of.

I live in the Atlanta metro area of over 4 million people and we only have 3 shops for this entire area.